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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Upping grot points to 4ppm will do nothing for the standard 3 batallion lists with smasha spam (assuming this is the only change); you lose 90 points, which is 3 smasha guns. It hurts, but does not kill this list. Current competitive lists already field a bunch with Boyz anyway, so these lists aren't affected as much. You're just adding a tax to CP spam, which be around 60 points (3 large units of boyz which seems to be common), which is 3 smasha guns. Whoopy.

If its accompanied by other changes elsewhere, then it's probably a wash anyway. It doesn't really fix the problem.

What it does, though, is make other lists *even worse* to field.. So competitive Ork meta gets even more boring than it already is. Spam smasha guns + feed your SSAG. What an exciting army to play.

Orks are also a CP hungry army. With the suggestions above, if Orks could only realistically field 2 batallions, I'm pretty sure you kill the army competitively. Or if that 3rd batallion is so expensive (spending 120 extra points on boyz which literally do nothing, because 9 boyz + a Nob is zero threat to any real army), then you can just blow them out anyway. Without the horde of CP we get, a bunch our units basically stop being effective enough to compete.

It would be nice if Boyz were a more tempting troop choice outside of 30 man blobs, or 10-12 in a trukk (which is another 64 point tax), but they aren't. Frankly, it's rather sad that Boyz are mostly for distraction and not for killing anymore, due to how comparatively weak PKs are this edition *and* how how much easier it is for armies to blow up a 30 man squad in 1 turn of shooting.

I just sincerely hope if this change happens, the 80% of the codex which sees zero use in competition gets a nice point drop. If you look at competitive lists, which of these fields a single vehicle outside of a Mek Gun?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/13 00:27:09


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I dont think ork players wallets can sustain for their army to be made cheaper point wise. With the exception of the stompa.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Krazed Killa Kan






boyz are not appealing when bog standard marines move 6", have 3+/3+/3+ and 30 inch range rapid fire -1.

You could, idk, look at SSAG, the ridiculous strategems and maybe change focus into standard elites like Nobs, MANz, Kommandos, burna boyz, etc. Maybe make all those sweet buggies worth a crap.

Or, you can do this after being confused that the strategems in the book (shoot twice, 5+ auto hits, attack twice, teleport a Gorkanaut, 3D6 vehicle charge, etc) are the focus.

Whatever you do, don't actually try to balance the book. Just bang your face into a wall.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut




I will be reglementary ecstatic if the Emperor Children get
anything interesting this time but I am not holding my breath.
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






I’m just biding my time waiting to see Necron points go back up now all you see in normal tournament builds is 3 doomsday arks, 3 doomscythes and Imotekh. Not looking forward to that reveal...
   
Made in eu
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Compettive Ork lists are usually running three units of 30 boyz and 30-60 gretchin. Armies with more than four units of boyz are unplayable because of chess clocks and no rule support for moving hordes efficiently. Considering how we don't have any other troops choices how is that a bad thing? Who else is use two types of troops in fairly equal

The only other ways to field troops - boyz riding a battlewagon, bonekrusha or trukks are worthless due to boyz not actually being worth their 7 points per model when they lose the green tide bonus and the PK being a joke weapon this edition.
There simply is no point in carting a unit across the board to have it kill two intercessors and then die.

Orks in general have to have at least 13 CP to operate (so two battalions), even in a casual setting, since the stratagems are what allows us to super-charge our inferior weapons to kill enough of the enemy army so they don't wipe us of the board despite low durability of most of our units (4+ saves on vehicles and expensive characters, 6+ saves on expensive elite infantry, no invulnerable saves for anyone outside of the KFF, easily sniped characters). The grot shield stratagem is the only reason why lootas and flash gits are seeing play - mind you, a single unit per army, because unprotected they have no chance of surviving a single turn.
Now you'll say "But hold on jidmah, gretchin and boyz are very durable for their points!". That's true, but the other truth is that neither boyz nor gretchin are ever going to win you a game. Plus no one likes to play with or against an army that slugs 100+ boyz across the board.

So when you want to run any other archetype but shooty orks or green tide - for example a buggy and biker list or a dread mob - the only way to do so is by putting a ton of gretchin in that list. Because you won't have enough points for all those fancy toys if you use mobs of 30 boyz - as tneva pointed out, those are quite expensive.

So, how to make people take less gretchin?
- Make trukkboyz work. People love those, if they were even remotely worth their points, they would see play, and they would be cheaper alternatives than the 210+ point mobs
- Make battlewagons worth using again. You can't charge out of them, mobs of 20 lose their green tide bonus to overwatch and the damn thing is both too slow and too expensive. A mob of 20 should be able to fight on equal footing with a unit of 5 primaris marines.
- Make nobz troops. Right now nobs rival boyz in efficiency, but there is no real reason to take them. Making them troops would surely make them appear on the battlefield more often, and they fit in any transport to support archetypes currently only viable in casual play.


Galas wrote:I dont think ork players wallets can sustain for their army to be made cheaper point wise. With the exception of the stompa.

Anything but gretchin, boyz and mek guns could have a points drop without straining anyone's wallet. Most models are more expensive than they have been in 5th, plus most units are insanely expensive since you can't really field anything as minimal units.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Tiberius501 wrote:
It’s a shame GW are so against just making CP’s equal to everyone’s lists no matter what you take. Just give everyone, like, 12 or whatever is a good number. Would put a stop to this cheap infantry spamming instantly.


They're trying a carrot system. AoS is the one that relies on sticks to force list composition. Personally, of the two, I think the 40k system is more fun to play with, since the carrots are pretty easy to build into.
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles






 Kurgash wrote:
I’m just biding my time waiting to see Necron points go back up now all you see in normal tournament builds is 3 doomsday arks, 3 doomscythes and Imotekh. Not looking forward to that reveal...

Necrons should be fine they have been consistently towards the bottom. I'm kinda worried about Tau since they were doing well a few months back when CA was probably printed. Doesn't help that FLG has their thumb on the scale and they have a well deserved reputation for hating Tau. As much as Reece and ITC are a pillar of the community I really wish they would excuse themselves from balance discussions if they are that heavily biased.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 LunarSol wrote:
Personally, of the two, I think the 40k system is more fun to play with, since the carrots are pretty easy to build into.
Generally I agree, but some "carrots" are too easy for certain factions to get than others.

Which is why I really like the idea of making certain chaff units REALLY cheap, but not count for minimal slots. For example 2ppm Grots could be easily spammed as a horde for tactical reasons, but NOT be used as CP batteries. Same with 3ppm Conscripts.
And you could potentially expand this concept to Rippers, Nurglings and MAYBE Chaos Cultists. Make these units ridiculously, overpoweringly cheap so they can be easily spammed, but make them not count as minimum Troops so you still have to take "proper" Troops in those slots like Boyz, Chaos Marines, Gaunts, Plaguebearers etc

But after list building, they are still Troops with all the benefits that comes with

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/13 15:47:05


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Galef wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Personally, of the two, I think the 40k system is more fun to play with, since the carrots are pretty easy to build into.
Generally I agree, but some "carrots" are too easy for certain factions to get than others.

Which is why I really like the idea of making certain chaff units REALLY cheap, but not count for minimal slots. For example 2ppm Grots could be easily spammed as a horde for tactical reasons, but NOT be used as CP batteries. Same with 3ppm Conscripts.
And you could potentially expand this concept to Rippers, Nurglings and MAYBE Chaos Cultists. Make these units ridiculously, overpoweringly cheap so they can be easily spammed, but make them not count as minimum Troops so you still have to take "proper" Troops in those slots like Boyz, Chaos Marines, Gaunts, Plaguebearers etc

But after list building, they are still Troops with all the benefits that comes with

-


One option is to take a page from AoS and make them only count as troops under specific Kulturs or Hives or Dynasties or what have you that don't otherwise have the best traits. This would make it worthwhile to build one of your detachments as an easy carrot, but wouldn't be worth using as your only troop option in the army.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 LunarSol wrote:
 Galef wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Personally, of the two, I think the 40k system is more fun to play with, since the carrots are pretty easy to build into.
Generally I agree, but some "carrots" are too easy for certain factions to get than others.

Which is why I really like the idea of making certain chaff units REALLY cheap, but not count for minimal slots. For example 2ppm Grots could be easily spammed as a horde for tactical reasons, but NOT be used as CP batteries. Same with 3ppm Conscripts.
And you could potentially expand this concept to Rippers, Nurglings and MAYBE Chaos Cultists. Make these units ridiculously, overpoweringly cheap so they can be easily spammed, but make them not count as minimum Troops so you still have to take "proper" Troops in those slots like Boyz, Chaos Marines, Gaunts, Plaguebearers etc

But after list building, they are still Troops with all the benefits that comes with

-


One option is to take a page from AoS and make them only count as troops under specific Kulturs or Hives or Dynasties or what have you that don't otherwise have the best traits. This would make it worthwhile to build one of your detachments as an easy carrot, but wouldn't be worth using as your only troop option in the army.


This is something I think AOS does far, far better than 40k. The much simplified battlefield role system.

Most factions have 1-2 base battleline units, and you unlock other units as battleline by taking certain characters as your general or by being certain subfactions. That maeans you get better control over who can have a spam list and what their abilities are.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Sedona, Arizona

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Rumours re CA19 as follows;


The grot goes to 4 pts



If this is true I think I stand for all Orks everywhere when I say; what the actual feth are GW thinking making Grots 4ppm?! If this turns out to be true I'm done. This edition is over for me.


What? You mean Orks didn't get enough time in the sun being competitively viable (not meta defining, but viable) for the first time since 5th edition 10 years ago? You mean Xenos paying guardsman prices for models which are - at best - half as useful isn't fair? You think our grotz deserve to be more PPM efficient than Renegades and Heretics, the joke infantry of 8th?

Entitled much.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I hear so much banter about how expensive GW's models are that when I finally get around to trying their games I'm rather shocked at how reasonable they are compared to other major games in the industry.
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Gurnee, IL

mortar_crew wrote:
I will be reglementary ecstatic if the Emperor Children get
anything interesting this time but I am not holding my breath.


Here's hoping. But I'm not expecting much, if GW stays true to form, our "new" rules will be either re-worked old rules or nerfed versions of the loyalists rules.

"Fear the cute ones." 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Texas

Is there actually any new information on CA19? I might have missed it over the last 3 pages of salt.

No Pity! No Remorse! No fear! 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 Karthicus wrote:
Is there actually any new information on CA19? I might have missed it over the last 3 pages of salt.

Of course not. It's also ironic given that most of the salt is over a rumour that has a high chance of proving false, as detailed on the first page.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Imateria wrote:
 Karthicus wrote:
Is there actually any new information on CA19? I might have missed it over the last 3 pages of salt.

Of course not. It's also ironic given that most of the salt is over a rumour that has a high chance of proving false, as detailed on the first page.


Never let facts get in the way of a good dakka gakstorm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/13 18:54:02


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





the_scotsman wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
 Galef wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Personally, of the two, I think the 40k system is more fun to play with, since the carrots are pretty easy to build into.
Generally I agree, but some "carrots" are too easy for certain factions to get than others.

Which is why I really like the idea of making certain chaff units REALLY cheap, but not count for minimal slots. For example 2ppm Grots could be easily spammed as a horde for tactical reasons, but NOT be used as CP batteries. Same with 3ppm Conscripts.
And you could potentially expand this concept to Rippers, Nurglings and MAYBE Chaos Cultists. Make these units ridiculously, overpoweringly cheap so they can be easily spammed, but make them not count as minimum Troops so you still have to take "proper" Troops in those slots like Boyz, Chaos Marines, Gaunts, Plaguebearers etc

But after list building, they are still Troops with all the benefits that comes with

-


One option is to take a page from AoS and make them only count as troops under specific Kulturs or Hives or Dynasties or what have you that don't otherwise have the best traits. This would make it worthwhile to build one of your detachments as an easy carrot, but wouldn't be worth using as your only troop option in the army.


This is something I think AOS does far, far better than 40k. The much simplified battlefield role system.

Most factions have 1-2 base battleline units, and you unlock other units as battleline by taking certain characters as your general or by being certain subfactions. That maeans you get better control over who can have a spam list and what their abilities are.


oddly 40k USED to do that, then got rid of it.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 morganfreeman wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Rumours re CA19 as follows;


The grot goes to 4 pts



If this is true I think I stand for all Orks everywhere when I say; what the actual feth are GW thinking making Grots 4ppm?! If this turns out to be true I'm done. This edition is over for me.


What? You mean Orks didn't get enough time in the sun being competitively viable (not meta defining, but viable) for the first time since 5th edition 10 years ago? You mean Xenos paying guardsman prices for models which are - at best - half as useful isn't fair? You think our grotz deserve to be more PPM efficient than Renegades and Heretics, the joke infantry of 8th?

Entitled much.


I'm very sorry sir, how dare I even think that I might expect balanced units. I will cease such foolish thoughts in future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Imateria wrote:
 Karthicus wrote:
Is there actually any new information on CA19? I might have missed it over the last 3 pages of salt.

Of course not. It's also ironic given that most of the salt is over a rumour that has a high chance of proving false, as detailed on the first page.


Never let facts get in the way of a good dakka gakstorm.

Facts? Something might not be true is the opposite of a 'fact'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/13 20:39:46


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Isn't the entire point of the thread to discuss rumours and whether this is a good or bad change? Nothing is confirmed here period.

I think Ork players would be less concerned if the current spat of rumours included buffs, not just making our bullet catcher troops way overpriced.
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Louisiana

 DominayTrix wrote:
 Kurgash wrote:
I’m just biding my time waiting to see Necron points go back up now all you see in normal tournament builds is 3 doomsday arks, 3 doomscythes and Imotekh. Not looking forward to that reveal...

Necrons should be fine they have been consistently towards the bottom. I'm kinda worried about Tau since they were doing well a few months back when CA was probably printed. Doesn't help that FLG has their thumb on the scale and they have a well deserved reputation for hating Tau. As much as Reece and ITC are a pillar of the community I really wish they would excuse themselves from balance discussions if they are that heavily biased.


T'au have been a top tier army for a long while now.

They've gotten nothing but buffs and have gotten better over the course of 8th edition.

For your conspiracy theory to actually make sense, T'au would have to have gotten worse over the course of 8th, not better to the point that they regularly win tournaments and are one of the top tier armies in the game.

These kind of posts always make me scratch my head.
   
Made in eu
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Unless I really suck at counting, Tau have been about as often in top placings as armies like GSC or Orks. They have simply been one of many armies that have a tournament-viable build.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Playing competitive Tau builds is like eating plain pasta.
Yeah it can work but you end up contemplating suicide from how disgusting it end ups being.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





London, UK

Competitive Tau are pretty damn good. They've been continuously flying under the radar with other nerfs going on. Triptide lists are brutal to play against.

   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 Jidmah wrote:
Unless I really suck at counting, Tau have been about as often in top placings as armies like GSC or Orks. They have simply been one of many armies that have a tournament-viable build.
1st place SoCal open, 1st place Nova, 3rd place Bay Area Open.

There are top placings, and then there are big tournament top placings - and the tau are still taking 1st in major tournaments against the nuMarines, even if their best list is the opposite of fun.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

A.T. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Unless I really suck at counting, Tau have been about as often in top placings as armies like GSC or Orks. They have simply been one of many armies that have a tournament-viable build.
1st place SoCal open, 1st place Nova, 3rd place Bay Area Open.

There are top placings, and then there are big tournament top placings - and the tau are still taking 1st in major tournaments against the nuMarines, even if their best list is the opposite of fun.

See, this is what confuses me about competitive players. If it isn't fun why would you play it?

On the topic: if they do bring down the points on the fw super heavys what would they cost them? Would they bring them back to where they were in 7th and are currently in hh at about 550 for a fellblade? 395 for a Cerberus/typhon?

If those are fair in hh why not in 8th? (Actually a fellblade is 525 in hh).
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Tau kind of live off the interaction of shield drones and riptides. It’s basically about being able to shoot the enemy without being shot back. They’ll have a few troops for CPs and either commanders or broadsides.

So I don’t think that overall the army is in a good place. I’ve got loads of Tau but I’ve never used them in 8th because it just doesn’t seem like any fun.

As for the rest of these rumours, who knows. If they decide to upgrade CSMs to having Primaris profiles then that would make sense, at least from a gameplay perspective, as Primaris feel (to me) like they have the stats marines always should have had. It sucks that CSMs are still gimped in comparison and that the new CSM book did nothing to fix them.

Orks are in sort of the same place as Tau. They’ve got a lot of units in their codex that are unusable and approximately one good build. That’s not a healthy place for a codex.

Arguably the same is true of Eldar, but they have so many units that there are enough decent ones to make at least a couple of different types of army. I thought it was sad that they released the army set a month or so ago containing some really nice new (and some very old) models – none of which is remotely competitive at the moment.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Gadzilla666 wrote:

If those are fair in hh why not in 8th? (Actually a fellblade is 525 in hh).


Howabout the obvious. Different game, different rule. Why marines cost 12 pts and not 30 like 2nd ed?

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Gadzilla666 wrote:
See, this is what confuses me about competitive players. If it isn't fun why would you play it?
Not fun for your opponents.
And also this is tournament competative, where the primary objective is to win the prize.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

tneva82 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

If those are fair in hh why not in 8th? (Actually a fellblade is 525 in hh).


Howabout the obvious. Different game, different rule. Why marines cost 12 pts and not 30 like 2nd ed?

True but hh is more like 7.5. Tac squads are 125 for 10 which works out to 12.5 per model. Pretty close. Fellblade was 540 in 7th. It's rules didn't get twice as good in 8th.

It would also be nice if they brought in some of the list organization rules from hh. Like no low below 2000 points.
   
 
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