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2020/01/21 13:15:49
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
BertBert wrote: I'm hoping for this to be a new warmaster. Different scale, entirely detached from AoS, new miniatures and big armies that better represent the numbers involved.
It won't be. It'll be regular scale.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2020/01/21 13:16:29
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
BertBert wrote: I'm hoping for this to be a new warmaster. Different scale, entirely detached from AoS, new miniatures and big armies that better represent the numbers involved.
It won't be. It'll be regular scale.
Do you have insider information about this?
2020/01/21 13:33:01
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Da Boss wrote: Eldarsif: I agree. But the only way to manage that is to use unit footprints rather than individual bases for deciding things, and people have rightly pointed out the issues with that due to 32mm bases being so large.
I could actually imagine them using slightly larger square bases when push comes to shove, especially if they are making new models. The old square bases had very little room on them and made for very restrictive model composition. GW has changed and learned a lot model-wise from 40k and AoS and I'd be surprised if they'd regress completely.
Again, this is a logistic GW probably needs to figure out. A lot of players have already rebased their old WHFB armies and having them do so again would be a double slap in their faces.
2020/01/21 13:45:35
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
BertBert wrote: I'm hoping for this to be a new warmaster. Different scale, entirely detached from AoS, new miniatures and big armies that better represent the numbers involved.
It won't be. It'll be regular scale.
Do you have insider information about this?
Even though GW has made some questionable decisions in the past, they're not stupid.
The buy-in cost for an entirely new scale would stifle the growth of a new game. Whereas many people already have WHFB stuff that they could use after purchasing some new books and maybe a few models.
It's much easier to get into a game when people around you are already capable of playing.
| | Krieg | | 30k: Alpha Legion | | Blackshields
2020/01/21 13:58:37
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Even though GW has made some questionable decisions in the past, they're not stupid.
The buy-in cost for an entirely new scale would stifle the growth of a new game. Whereas many people already have WHFB stuff that they could use after purchasing some new books and maybe a few models.
It's much easier to get into a game when people around you are already capable of playing.
May i remind you that GW went out of their way to make old Adeptus Titanicus, Aeronautica Imperialis and even Necromunda models unusable in the new versions due to scale changes?
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2020/01/21 14:08:16
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Even though GW has made some questionable decisions in the past, they're not stupid.
The buy-in cost for an entirely new scale would stifle the growth of a new game. Whereas many people already have WHFB stuff that they could use after purchasing some new books and maybe a few models.
It's much easier to get into a game when people around you are already capable of playing.
Fair enough, but a new Old World model range in the same scale is very likely to negatively impact AoS sales. There is also a recent precedent for a specialist game in a different scale in Adeptus Titanicus, so it's not as crazy an idea as you might think.
I assume AoS is here to stay and GW is planning to keep it as their main fantasy skirmisher, so I don't see where a new Old World product might fit in. The market for games with large blocks of infantry is currently occupied by rather mediocre products, so this would be a golden opportunity for GW to swoop back in with a beloved IP and premium sculpts. It would also be the closest thing to Total War: Warhammer, which might or might not be a relevant factor, but it's worth consideration.
It might also be more scalable than the current 28mm format if the rules accomodate for it. Having 5000 or 10000 units on the table is really just a matter of space, if they also sell movement trays (which they would). A smaller scale also means less intricate, one-part sculpts that could be just snap fit to base and done, probably cheaper in design and production, with the option of having pre-painted factions to get people on board more quickly without the massive barrier that painting still is for many people.
2020/01/21 14:12:41
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Even though GW has made some questionable decisions in the past, they're not stupid.
The buy-in cost for an entirely new scale would stifle the growth of a new game. Whereas many people already have WHFB stuff that they could use after purchasing some new books and maybe a few models.
It's much easier to get into a game when people around you are already capable of playing.
Fair enough, but a new Old World model range in the same scale is very likely to negatively impact AoS sales
Sales are still sales IMO No matter which stream the revenue flows in as long as it flows and shareholders make money...
AS long as AOS doesnt get deleted AOS will still continue to make money from people who play/like AOS. If its a specialist game system it would no more take sales away from AOS than necromund or 30k from 40k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 14:14:36
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
BertBert wrote: I'm hoping for this to be a new warmaster. Different scale, entirely detached from AoS, new miniatures and big armies that better represent the numbers involved.
It won't be. It'll be regular scale.
Do you have insider information about this?
Do you?
Honestly, every few pages someone comes along and says "Ooh maybe it's Warmaster scale", and that has all the likeliness of bringing back Zoats en masse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 14:20:07
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2020/01/21 14:26:29
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Honestly, every few pages someone comes along and says "Ooh maybe it's Warmaster scale", and that has all the likeliness of bringing back Zoats en masse.
You will acknowledge there there is a difference between "Ooh maybe it is Warmaster" and "It won't be Warmaster". Also, the likeliness of Warmaster being rebooted is not something either of us can make a reliable statement about, hence my question. It's all speculation at this point.
Sales are still sales IMO No matter which stream the revenue flows in as long as it flows and shareholders make money...
AS long as AOS doesnt get deleted AOS will still continue to make money from people who play/like AOS. If its a specialist game system it would no more take sales away from AOS than necromund or 30k from 40k.
A smaller scale battle game with blocks of mass infantry is a different (sub-)market altogether and one that is not very well saturated at this point in time. IMO it makes sense to tap into that without risking to harm your main product.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 14:36:30
2020/01/21 14:45:56
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Yeah they wont be making it any other scale other then 28mm. All the supplemental games GW has released in the last few years have had miniatures that can be used in multiple systems. The only exception being Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis (for obvious reasons)
Just don't expect it to be like anything we've seen before. GW was able to wipe the slate clean so either armies are gone (because people sold them out of spite), they have rebased them for AoS or they moved on to a new game system like Kings of War/9th Age.
I imagine the rules will be overhauled from the ground up as well.
Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!! The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage
2020/01/21 14:50:51
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Da Boss wrote: Eldarsif: I agree. But the only way to manage that is to use unit footprints rather than individual bases for deciding things, and people have rightly pointed out the issues with that due to 32mm bases being so large.
I could actually imagine them using slightly larger square bases when push comes to shove, especially if they are making new models. The old square bases had very little room on them and made for very restrictive model composition. GW has changed and learned a lot model-wise from 40k and AoS and I'd be surprised if they'd regress completely.
Again, this is a logistic GW probably needs to figure out. A lot of players have already rebased their old WHFB armies and having them do so again would be a double slap in their faces.
I had originally thought about some kind of base adapter, but I'm wondering if movement trays might be more likely. Either way, I'm sure they'll be priced in such a way that makes it slightly less expensive than buying the models all over again. Slightly.
The market for games with large blocks of infantry is currently occupied by rather mediocre products
Thats certainly a matter of taste and opinion. Currently there are a couple of games that are large blocks of infantry that are for the people that play those games head and shoulders better than any GW attempt at it with the exception of the 6th edition which had a lot of the writers that made the current ones on the GW design staff back during 6th edition.
What GW has going for it is its massive following of fans that will buy it because it has massive following of fans so they feel their investment is safe.
The rules could be little modeled poohs with googly eyes running amuk, and it will sell because its got a huge internal fan base already and people feel their investments will be safe and that games can be had.
If the game is about massed infantry ranks, puts a premium on maneuver and precision, is not about pokemon collect em all strategies, pay-to-win over the top summoning free additional points, or MTG combo buffing synergies, has battlefield management put back in with proper terrain rules that hinder you, and puts some risk / reward mechanics back where not everything is reward-reward, I'm definitely interested in giving it a fair shake (AND if they don't have army lists that write themselves because the always-takes and never-takes are obvious after 20 seconds of flipping through the book).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 14:53:54
2020/01/21 14:53:18
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
You want to know the biggest problem with AOS? No one plays it.
And that's why it's in 2nd place in that independend sales list that gets published every half a year.
What is your point?
Out of my whole post- that's the best you can come up with? I guess every conversation needs "THAT GUY".
The point is your argument is flawed since you're asserting no one plays or buysAOS. Games Workshop made the right decision axing Fantasy since no one played/bought the models or rulesets. When the new games drops I will not lose hours of my life playing a horrible ruleset that is either hero hammer or cavhammer. I sincerely hope they don't devote too many resources to this new iteration.
Hopefully the underlined text shows the added 2 word problem here.
Wait are you saying no one is playing or buying AOS? I don't think GW would be in a position to release Fantasy if AOS wasn't doing so well. Half the stuff GW releases for AOS is sold out in pre-order.
I'm hopeful that GW releases Fantasy based heroes, terrain, and armies with AOS rules that will be playable. I'd be ok with it if the bases were in WOTR miniature trays and they were blocks- but not if they brought back the old rules, stat lines, and charts. The GW Fantasy game that I played was horrible. People wouldn't home-brew their own rules if it wasn't total trash.
AoS is horrible too and people use their home-brew rules to play
The point is, sales say nothing about how many people play the game, just how much models GW is selling.
GW complained that Warhammer was not selling, but it was the main TableTop game most of people played.
AoS is selling well, but not many people play it and there is nothing wrong with those statements.
GW made some stupid decisions during 7th edition, continued with them in 8th and failed
But they did not learned from it and made the same mistakes that caused Warhammer to fail with AoS and failed again.
If they would not have made a 180° turn after 1 year with AoS and brought the changed 2nd on the way no one would talk about now.
What goes for Warhammer is the strong IP and that people buy everything from GW no matter the price as long as it holds a minimum standard.
If GW learned from the past, this game will be a huge sucess, no matter what scale, no matter what material, no matter if compatible with old miniatures or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 14:55:11
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2020/01/21 14:54:59
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Honestly, every few pages someone comes along and says "Ooh maybe it's Warmaster scale", and that has all the likeliness of bringing back Zoats en masse.
You will acknowledge there there is a difference between "Ooh maybe it is Warmaster" and "It won't be Warmaster". Also, the likeliness of Warmaster being rebooted is not something either of us can make a reliable statement about, hence my question. It's all speculation at this point.
Sales are still sales IMO No matter which stream the revenue flows in as long as it flows and shareholders make money...
AS long as AOS doesnt get deleted AOS will still continue to make money from people who play/like AOS. If its a specialist game system it would no more take sales away from AOS than necromund or 30k from 40k.
A smaller scale battle game with blocks of mass infantry is a different (sub-)market altogether and one that is not very well saturated at this point in time. IMO it makes sense to tap into that without risking to harm your main product.
Nah, just won't happen. Can't provide proof to prove you wrong, will just be quietly confident that you are. They want it to be the Horus Heresy to AOS's 40K - that does not scream 'different scale' so I find that kind of speculation kinda pointless, be it 6mm. 8mm, whatever Warmaster was. It'll be regular old GW heroic scale, embiggened as per modern sculpts, I'd wager. I'm not a betting man but this one's safe. Proven market, proven sculpting skills and proven fanbase. Going randomly off-piste makes little to no sense. No point going for 'not very well saturated' market if that market is small-to-non-existent. Warmaster wasn't a great success, as I recall (unlike Epic's various incarnations), so GW would be daft to revisit it.
Also that square base teaser/trolling image. Ya know, if you leap from that to "It's Warmaster!" then, well, it's a leap all right...
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2020/01/21 14:57:38
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
The market for games with large blocks of infantry is currently occupied by rather mediocre products
Thats certainly a matter of taste and opinion. Currently there are a couple of games that are large blocks of infantry that are for the people that play those games head and shoulders better than any GW attempt at it with the exception of the 6th edition which had a lot of the writers that made the current ones on the GW design staff back during 6th edition.
I should have been more specific: by mediocre I was referring to the model ranges, if they even have one. I believe that GW's main pro is the quality and style of their miniatures. I wouldn't have high hopes for a fantastic ruleset, but the miniatures would be a big draw I imagine.
Nah, just won't happen. Can't provide proof to prove you wrong, will just be quietly confident that you are. They want it to be the Horus Heresy to AOS's 40K - that does not scream 'different scale' so I find that kind of speculation kinda pointless, be it 6mm. 8mm, whatever Warmaster was. It'll be regular old GW heroic scale, embiggened as per modern sculpts, I'd wager. I'm not a betting man but this one's safe. Proven market, proven sculpting skills and proven fanbase. Going randomly off-piste makes little to no sense. No point going for 'not very well saturated' market if that market is small-to-non-existent. Warmaster wasn't a great success, as I recall (unlike Epic's various incarnations), so GW would be daft to revisit it.
Also that square base teaser/trolling image. Ya know, if you leap from that to "It's Warmaster!" then, well, it's a leap all right...
Fair enough, that's your opinion. I'm merely spitballing here anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 15:03:00
2020/01/21 14:59:53
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
I can agree with that. The miniatures will as always be great. Though Conquest is giving that a run for its money as well, with a lot of its new models. (again a matter of opinion and taste)
At this point though I demand better game rules and a game experience before I fork over hundreds of dollars on miniatures that I won't enjoy playing with because the rules are really bad, so I am in wait-and-see mode.
I very much *want* GW to give me a game for people like me who want more than what AOS can offer or is basically a 180 degree difference from what AOS offers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/21 15:23:15
2020/01/21 17:19:07
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
At this point, I just want some Black Library books with the feel of the Old World circa 2005-2010. Give us some Brunner or Gitrek or Kislev or whatever Wraight, Long, MacNeil, Mitchell, King, Werner or Reynolds want to write. I'll buy Old World toys when GW provides Old World inspiration.*
Personally I'd like Gotrek to get knocked down a few pegs. He doesn't "feel" the same as he used too in the Old World where he was an enigma, but always had that risk of being killed. Right now he sort of feels like he's an Invulnerable (rather than Indomminable) Gaul. Able to dish out damage and keep going on and on and on without pause.
It distances him even more from the small person style adventure that he still really rather is. He's still an adventurer at heart as a character.
I get that AoS has taken things to "11", but I feel like Gotrek is currently on 15 and needs to be dialled back just a bit. Especially now that he's actually got room to grow and change as a character since he's now actually more of a focus of his own stories (in the original stories we were more discovering things about Gotrek whilst Felix was the one going through the most changes as a character and person).
I'm aware Josh Reynolds is on a GW break at present, though I hope he gets back in the saddle. I think he captures the mood and atmosphere well and manages to blend the epic with the regular really well.
BertBert wrote: I'm hoping for this to be a new warmaster. Different scale, entirely detached from AoS, new miniatures and big armies that better represent the numbers involved.
It won't be. It'll be regular scale.
Do you have insider information about this?
Do you?
Honestly, every few pages someone comes along and says "Ooh maybe it's Warmaster scale", and that has all the likeliness of bringing back Zoats en masse.
And maybe genestealer hybrids will get an army?
Plastic sisters too?
At this point I don’t tempt fate, zoats may be around the corner, especially with Necromunda bringing back ambulls lol.
The way I see it:
They could make it warmaster style, but it would have less interest as people would need to buy in for essentially, a brand new game.
It would yield sales, but it would hit a wall.
If they keep it at the usual scale they can draw over customers far more easily.
Most people would be far more inclined to try a new system if their current models had a use in it.
It would yield lower sales initially, but the draw of customers would be much higher due to cross platform miniatures.
I’d honestly think they would go with the latter due to laziness more than anything.
The overhead costs for designing and making everything in a new scale wouldn’t be pretty.
2020/01/21 18:45:25
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Overread wrote: Personally I'd like Gotrek to get knocked down a few pegs. He doesn't "feel" the same as he used too in the Old World where he was an enigma, but always had that risk of being killed. Right now he sort of feels like he's an Invulnerable (rather than Indomminable) Gaul. Able to dish out damage and keep going on and on and on without pause.
It distances him even more from the small person style adventure that he still really rather is. He's still an adventurer at heart as a character.
I get that AoS has taken things to "11", but I feel like Gotrek is currently on 15 and needs to be dialled back just a bit. Especially now that he's actually got room to grow and change as a character since he's now actually more of a focus of his own stories (in the original stories we were more discovering things about Gotrek whilst Felix was the one going through the most changes as a character and person).
I'm aware Josh Reynolds is on a GW break at present, though I hope he gets back in the saddle. I think he captures the mood and atmosphere well and manages to blend the epic with the regular really well.
I've noticed the same thing about Gotrek, its like he's become too iconic to be allowed to face the possibility of... not even dying but just loosing.
Kinda like the Primarchs actually, unless their facing one another no matter what they face they win. So much so that on the rare occasion when one of them get hurt it feels weirdly out of place, like that one time when Guilliman almost got assasinated by mere bolter toting Alpha Legionaries. I guess it's even worse for Gotrek since, as you said, he's just a dwarf going on these small scale adventures.
I dunno maybe there's a corporate mandate demanding that characters who've been raised to the status of Iconic Warhammer Heroes™ can't shown failing out of fear that it would somehow hurt the IP, or maybe the writers are such fanboys they can't bring themselves to show their heroes face defeat.
Full of Power
2020/01/21 18:52:48
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
On the topic of Gotrek... It be nice for him to have a run in with Thanequol again. But this time. The big rat wins for once.
Won't happen. But it's be great if they'd acknowledge the history there.
PourSpelur wrote: It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
pm713 wrote: I think Gotrek staying gone would have been better really. But if anyone deserves to beat him it's Thanquol, he's tried enough times.
Skaven tend to try endlessly though and rarely get anywhere.
Granted, they helped kill Nagash via sigmar at one stage, but in all the novels and fluff, skaven are always on the losing end.
Even a win results in a loss from something else.
2020/01/21 19:08:38
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
Da Boss wrote: Eldarsif: I agree. But the only way to manage that is to use unit footprints rather than individual bases for deciding things, and people have rightly pointed out the issues with that due to 32mm bases being so large.
I could actually imagine them using slightly larger square bases when push comes to shove, especially if they are making new models. The old square bases had very little room on them and made for very restrictive model composition. GW has changed and learned a lot model-wise from 40k and AoS and I'd be surprised if they'd regress completely.
Again, this is a logistic GW probably needs to figure out. A lot of players have already rebased their old WHFB armies and having them do so again would be a double slap in their faces.
Given GW's introduction of movement trays for round minis in Apocalypse, I wouldn't be surprised if a new WHFB replacement offers regiment movement trays for round bases.
Despite the tease involving squares coming back, I'm not convinced that it means square bases are returning- that means model incompatibility with the AoS line, and I imagine GW would rather release a game that caters to people currently buying product (on round bases) than one which caters to people who still have old collections, while current buyers can't play.
Even though GW has made some questionable decisions in the past, they're not stupid.
The buy-in cost for an entirely new scale would stifle the growth of a new game. Whereas many people already have WHFB stuff that they could use after purchasing some new books and maybe a few models.
It's much easier to get into a game when people around you are already capable of playing.
May i remind you that GW went out of their way to make old Adeptus Titanicus, Aeronautica Imperialis and even Necromunda models unusable in the new versions due to scale changes?
I can't remember where I read it, but I could have sworn I saw somewhere that the AT/AI scale (8mm) was chosen because it allows a Space Marine to still look good, whereas the 6mm of Epic/old AI lacks a lot of character in the infantry minis. In other words, it would suggest that the new scale is a painful shift to allow future games (like a hypothetical Epic reboot) to be compatible to the new standard. Grain of salt and all.
pm713 wrote: I think Gotrek staying gone would have been better really. But if anyone deserves to beat him it's Thanquol, he's tried enough times.
Skaven tend to try endlessly though and rarely get anywhere.
Granted, they helped kill Nagash via sigmar at one stage, but in all the novels and fluff, skaven are always on the losing end.
Even a win results in a loss from something else.
Except when they killed most of a world and overran the race that lived in fortresses. Which I'm now only slightly salty about.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/01/21 20:06:36
Subject: Warhammer The Old World?? Square bases+AOS?? What is this madnes!? - Rumour/Theory thread
For all the people that want WHFB in 15mm, try Deamonworld figs. It's a 15mm fantasy line of figures from the mid/late 90s that were basically a copy of GW at the time. I've been doing some lately to go with the Joan of Arc boardgame, but they'd work great for either KoW or older editions of actual WHFB/9th Age. Sculpting quality is great for the scale and they're really inexpensive. They have most major GW armies available, although they have a lot more options for 'good" races than the evil ones
As for Old World, I just hope I finally get High Elf Spearmen and archers that don't look like arse. I'd planned to convert 2 big blocks of spearmen from Dark Elf spearmen, but lost steam halfway through the project. Helf archers look OKish with a headswap, but they still aren't great. The High Elf line was SO good when 8th ended with the sole exception of the Core Units. Teclis' Pointy Aelves will hopefully be good for AoS, but I have very high doubts that they'll rank up (especially if put on 20mm squares)
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Krieg | 
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Eldar- 4436 pts
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
