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2021/07/01 00:15:08
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
I really can understand why for most people is different for Kislev. Because Kislev are humans. Technically, they are "good humans" so different from chaos humans.
In Warhammer everyone had magical stuff and fantasic stuff because they were fantasy races. Humans were in the "peak warhammer period" so 5th-6th basically three historical factions, france, holy roman empire, and poland-lituanian mixed with russia. You had Pegasi and Gryphons and Wizards but that was it.
But that was, and is, a minimal portion of the whole warhammer fantasy universe and only in a comparatively short spawn of time of two editions and 2-4 factions. Compared with basically all the other factions of warhammer fantasy during all the rest of the game existence.
I mean WHFB Araby was literally a historical army ported over from when GW did historical miniatures but in warmaster it was expanded with giant Djinns and flying carpet archers, etc, etc...
This is the impression I get too, that because they're "human" factions they're going to be quite grounded and relatively low-fantasy...but as mentioned in multiple posts now, Kislev has always been about Ice Magic and Bears to a large extent, Cathay and Araby had magic stuff allover the place, the Empire had strange technological oddities for a long time, and things like Griffon Riders and Pegasus riders were there since the 90s at least, and then there's the stuff like castle boats and dragons used as ships, Dwarf submarines and Airships and ironclads etc. Those fantasy elements have been there for a long time, the difference now is they're able to create models and are properly representing this lore elements that weren't on the tabletop before. The ice sleds and bears aren't a sudden addition that's changed what Kislev is or a flanderization, they're in-line with how Kislev has been for years.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/01 00:19:17
2021/07/01 00:58:15
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
I really can understand why for most people is different for Kislev. Because Kislev are humans. Technically, they are "good humans" so different from chaos humans.
In Warhammer everyone had magical stuff and fantasic stuff because they were fantasy races. Humans were in the "peak warhammer period" so 5th-6th basically three historical factions, france, holy roman empire, and poland-lituanian mixed with russia. You had Pegasi and Gryphons and Wizards but that was it.
But that was, and is, a minimal portion of the whole warhammer fantasy universe and only in a comparatively short spawn of time of two editions and 2-4 factions. Compared with basically all the other factions of warhammer fantasy during all the rest of the game existence.
I mean WHFB Araby was literally a historical army ported over from when GW did historical miniatures but in warmaster it was expanded with giant Djinns and flying carpet archers, etc, etc...
This is the impression I get too, that because they're "human" factions they're going to be quite grounded and relatively low-fantasy...but as mentioned in multiple posts now, Kislev has always been about Ice Magic and Bears to a large extent, Cathay and Araby had magic stuff allover the place, the Empire had strange technological oddities for a long time, and things like Griffon Riders and Pegasus riders were there since the 90s at least, and then there's the stuff like castle boats and dragons used as ships, Dwarf submarines and Airships and ironclads etc. Those fantasy elements have been there for a long time, the difference now is they're able to create models and are properly representing this lore elements that weren't on the tabletop before. The ice sleds and bears aren't a sudden addition that's changed what Kislev is or a flanderization, they're in-line with how Kislev has been for years.
It's a bit like in modern times taking a look into a very old rural village in Asia and imagining that is how this era should look like.
2021/07/01 01:29:03
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Sometimes i wonder how can anyone look at the old, early edition Warhammer Fantasy models and say they're "beautifully designed" with a straight face. They're all so blatantly held back by the technology and sculpting and budget of their time i find it hard to take them remotely seriously.
Virtually anything sculpted by the Perrys is marvelous. The metal models have a depth and visual heft to them that can't be matched in plastic.
That's not to say that plastic is worse -- it's almost the better medium for large models, for example. However, I do prefer some metal models to their plastic counterparts.
Madness is however an affliction which in war carries with it the advantage of surprise - Winston Churchill
2021/07/01 02:00:25
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Sometimes i wonder how can anyone look at the old, early edition Warhammer Fantasy models and say they're "beautifully designed" with a straight face. They're all so blatantly held back by the technology and sculpting and budget of their time i find it hard to take them remotely seriously.
Virtually anything sculpted by the Perrys is marvelous. The metal models have a depth and visual heft to them that can't be matched in plastic.
That's not to say that plastic is worse -- it's almost the better medium for large models, for example. However, I do prefer some metal models to their plastic counterparts.
Not that they're as old as the early edition models, but I think its universally agreed upon that the Juan Diaz metal Pink Horrors are so much better than the current plastic kit. And I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way when comparing the old daemonettes to the plastic ones. Some metal models just have so much character to them, its crazy. And some are better off forgotten
2021/07/01 02:20:31
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
NinthMusketeer wrote: It being a magical construct instead of a robot doesn't undermine his point though...?
I would say it does.
In a universe where magic is a thing but not very common, a golem found in the basement of a wizard is much more of a reasonable idea than human engineers who can barely work gun powder weaponry creating functional mechanical horses.
No one is saying there shouldn't be fantastical things in WFB. The argument I've been making is that the fantastical needs to be kept on rails so as to keep it fantastical.
Can you say the fantastical is being kept on rails where the the robot was a Dalek (second row from bottom, second from left)?
Spoiler:
And the leader of the Abbey was lead by a priest with a mechanical hand, eye and plates bolted on?
Spoiler:
And they are being assaulted by flamethrower welding ratmen?
I keep pointing back to the Lichemaster scenario because unlike Bloodbath at Orc's Drift or McDeath, GW has never brushed it under the carpet. Kemmler and Krell were introduced in that campaign and remained part of the WHFB universe and were always brought back each edition. The two predate most the major named characters of Warhammer that exist today. I recall the Battle of La Maisontaal being redone a couple times in White Dwarf in later editions. The scenario was created by Rick Priestley and that he put cyborgs and robots in his missions shows you his mindset for the WHFB game in the beginning.
That we're seeing fantastical units being shown off for Kislev does not stray out of the boundaries of original game. Does a giant elemental bear differ from when armies could take earth, water, fire, wind, death, or life elementals?
The Lichemaster is a bit different, but the case of the Doomstones campaign is interesting on account of it being written as a regular D&D campaign that was later on slightly reworked to kinda sorta fit into WFRP. It is also more or less univerlassy bashed as being not very good nor very Warhammer-y.
I'll admit I never played the Doomstones campaign because friends who played it lamented it was never finished before they shut down the game. Just remember them talking about the fourth book finishing with them being stuck on a dwarf airship.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/01 02:23:21
2021/07/01 03:36:32
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Sometimes i wonder how can anyone look at the old, early edition Warhammer Fantasy models and say they're "beautifully designed" with a straight face. They're all so blatantly held back by the technology and sculpting and budget of their time i find it hard to take them remotely seriously.
Virtually anything sculpted by the Perrys is marvelous. The metal models have a depth and visual heft to them that can't be matched in plastic.
That's not to say that plastic is worse -- it's almost the better medium for large models, for example. However, I do prefer some metal models to their plastic counterparts.
Not that they're as old as the early edition models, but I think its universally agreed upon that the Juan Diaz metal Pink Horrors are so much better than the current plastic kit. And I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way when comparing the old daemonettes to the plastic ones. Some metal models just have so much character to them, its crazy. And some are better off forgotten
I believe the original comment would be referring to, in this instance, the horror & daemonette models before those. Those were... models.
Mmmpi wrote: There's a few issues with the whole fantastic ideas and increased 'unique' playable species.
1. How often they turn up is on the Story teller of a given world, and running into a few bunny girl fighters in an adventurer tavern doesn't make them common.
2. Even if said BGFs are common, it just means they aren't the fantastic part of the fantastic journey.
A real world look at these though. By the late 1880/90s most large American cities had a Chinatown neighborhood. Chinese Americans were part of the American culture by that point.
How many people, those in those cities, were likely to actually encounter one of these people? For a good long part of US history, communities, even inside a larger urban area could be very insular. You *might* see a Chinese American walking down the street every now and then, but the odds are you wouldn't stop to talk to them.
Then remember, until the mid 1930's, most of the US population was rural. With most Chinese Americans living in cities, how many farmboys would ever actually meet one?
This now brings up fiction. We know Chinese Americans were part of society. But they were still mysterious to most Americans that entire subsections of fiction were about the goings on of their lives and neighborhoods. Places of mystery (even as the real life was just mundane with accents), where all types of adventure lurked, and mystical and magical things abounded.
The problem is you assume that the Empire/America in this example is the norm. It's very much the exception to a globe full of wizards, lizards, dinosaurs, demons and tiger-people. Franz the kraut-herder is the exotic non-magical creature of fables, not the elven wizard riding a dragon.
I'm not assuming America is the norm. You can see the same thing throughout history for longer than writing has existed. I just used an example that I felt should be familiar to most readers here. I could easily have talked about merchants quarters in Sumar, Jewish Quarters in hundreds of cities across Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East, and so on.
2021/07/01 09:48:25
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Sorry didn't mean to start an argument! I'm not disputing that WFB had lots of fantastical, high fantasy elements, a lot of which has found a comfortable home in AoS.
However, this is a reboot and they have the opportunity to re-focus on the low fantasy elements. When I think about what was cool about WFB, it was the human stories, horror elements and the grimy, claustrophobic, superstitious world. That was why I said that for me they have focused on the wrong things here!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/01 09:48:59
2021/07/01 14:17:15
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's very clearly two, and only encompasses a minority of units. So it cannot be the one tone you were referring to. With all due respect please let us know the actual "one tone" you are speaking of instead of beating around the bush.
Most of the new stuff is ice, bears, or ice bears, though. I like the confluence of Slavic influence in the form of Polish lancers or Cossack infantry, but those are all holdovers from the WHFB days. The new stuff is pretty one note.
So not only were you BSing us with the 'one note' you are shifting the goal posts to cover it and STILL missing the mark since there are new units which are neither ice nor bear themed. That is some serious bad-faith discussion right there.
I'm not the person who originally used the phrase 'one-note', nor is the other person you attacked, so this stuff about bad-faith goalpost-shifting is ridiculous. Take a chill pill and pay some attention to who you're replying to.
Galas wrote:Kislev has always been russians, polish, ices and bears.
Have they? Because that's what seems a little off to me- Kislev was an amalgamation of Slavic influences first and foremost, with minimal focus on ice or bears. You had ice wizards as their magic lore, and a single special character riding a bear, but that was it. Magic ice sleds pulled by bears is where it starts to feel like flanderization to me, or at least really playing up the high fantasy elements.
It's like if Empire comes back and most of their new units are robot or tank themed. Yes, they had those, but they were one-off things that represented the flavor of the faction, not dominating elements of the army roster.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/01 14:18:30
Galas wrote:Kislev has always been russians, polish, ices and bears.
Have they? Because that's what seems a little off to me- Kislev was an amalgamation of Slavic influences first and foremost, with minimal focus on ice or bears. You had ice wizards as their magic lore, and a single special character riding a bear, but that was it. Magic ice sleds pulled by bears is where it starts to feel like flanderization to me, or at least really playing up the high fantasy elements.
It's like if Empire comes back and most of their new units are robot or tank themed. Yes, they had those, but they were one-off things that represented the flavor of the faction, not dominating elements of the army roster.
The miniatures / Army roster was limited in terms of bears and ice, with the Ice Queen and the occasional bear rider.
The Kislev lore however was full of bears and Ice. with the Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, to the point that religion and Kislev culture were together, with their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. That's how things that been since at least second edition of the RPG, back in 2004.
So this is in line with how Kislev was within the setting. There is no flanderization going on here, just Kislev now being shown as it was.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/01 15:00:36
2021/07/01 15:15:40
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
It probably doesn't help that most of Kislev's lore came from the RPG books rather then the Army books since they didn't get an army book line like most others. So people didn't really get to read all of it out all that often.
2021/07/01 15:25:43
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Again, all the so-called 'low fantasy' Kislev units are still around and figure to be the bulk of Kislev armies. A Kislev army *on the tabletop* almost certainly won't be 'all bears and ice, all the time', just as Empire wasn't 'all crazy contraptions, all the time'.
Obviously with how rarely we’re drip fed news for this there isn’t a lot else to discuss, but this thread really is just the same argument repeated every few weeks huh.
2021/07/01 16:34:58
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
ImAGeek wrote: Obviously with how rarely we’re drip fed news for this there isn’t a lot else to discuss, but this thread really is just the same argument repeated every few weeks huh.
Usually because someone new to the topic posts their disappointment after looking at the updates and then the defenders come in saying "nuh-uh you imagined it all"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/01 16:38:53
Old World Prediction: The Empire will have stupid Clockwork Paragon Warsuits and Mecha Horses
2021/07/01 16:46:32
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
gorgon wrote: If what you see isn't your thing, then why keep commenting? When I lose interest in something, I move on.
We aren't really seeing anything. That's really the problem with Old World marketing in my opinion. We're not just discussing things of which we have only partial knowledge, we're discussing things of which we have almost no knowledge at all.
How can you honestly say you're interested/not interested in whatever this game is going to be if GW refuses to tell us what they intend for it to be? It's why flavor and scale discussion gets endlessly rehashed. People know what they want out of it and for now even if they see things that may hint at things going in a direction they dislike, and sees them argue against those things or in favor of their own wishes, there is no substantial information to tell what the game is going to end up like. There's no basis for buying in or walking away at this time. Just potential, and contention on key points that we have no official information about.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
2021/07/01 17:11:27
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Kroem wrote: Sorry didn't mean to start an argument!
I'm not disputing that WFB had lots of fantastical, high fantasy elements, a lot of which has found a comfortable home in AoS.
However, this is a reboot and they have the opportunity to re-focus on the low fantasy elements.
When I think about what was cool about WFB, it was the human stories, horror elements and the grimy, claustrophobic, superstitious world.
That was why I said that for me they have focused on the wrong things here!
We, again, circle back to the issue that for some people, the entirety of Warhammer was the Empire. And not even the empire, the underclass of the empire. It's ignoring the whole rich, fantastical, magical tapestry of the Old World for the perspective of Franz the Heinz in Nowheresburg that died of hiccups achieving nothing. Which...doesn't make for interesting narrative or wargame.
2021/07/01 17:22:07
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It probably doesn't help that most of Kislev's lore came from the RPG books rather then the Army books since they didn't get an army book line like most others. So people didn't really get to read all of it out all that often.
Honestly, the Kislev I mostly remember comes from the RPG, particularly from Something is Rotten in Kislev. No bears, no ice queens, nothing of the sort. But it was a simpler time I guess.
2021/07/01 18:14:43
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It probably doesn't help that most of Kislev's lore came from the RPG books rather then the Army books since they didn't get an army book line like most others. So people didn't really get to read all of it out all that often.
Honestly, the Kislev I mostly remember comes from the RPG, particularly from Something is Rotten in Kislev. No bears, no ice queens, nothing of the sort. But it was a simpler time I guess.
Looks at Something is Rotten: Father Bear is a powerful spirit creature associated with the 30ft tall Leshy or Lord of the Forest spirit. There is also the Brotherhood of the Bear, ranger-templars.
The adventure includes a entire town full of zombies, powerful necromancers, hugely powerful nature spirits (more outlandish than the Elemental Bear) and a 5000 year old Elf who does not have or need stats - not sure it was that simple a time
The Tzarina, the Ice Queen arrives (as the most powerful Ice Witch) in 4th Ed WFB and Ice Witches are explored fully in 1st Ed WFRP in Realms of Sorcery - later expanded in 2nd ed Realm of the Ice Queen.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Meanwhile I'm just wondering if we'll be able to use redone Fantasy units like the Blood Knights or Direwolves.
This is on my mind aswell. There is going to be an enormous mini-overlap between AOS and TOW. The majority of the AOS range is more or less a perfect fit with the Old World.
Will they re-box everything and make everything usuable with both games? One mini-range, two rule systems?
2021/07/01 18:45:49
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Meanwhile I'm just wondering if we'll be able to use redone Fantasy units like the Blood Knights or Direwolves.
This is on my mind aswell. There is going to be an enormous mini-overlap between AOS and TOW. The majority of the AOS range is more or less a perfect fit with the Old World.
Will they re-box everything and make everything usuable with both games? One mini-range, two rule systems?
I mean there's also quite a few factions that simply never existed in Fantasy - Kharadron, Idoneth, Lumineth, Nightgaunt, Ossiriarchs, and most blatantly, Stormcasts.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
2021/07/01 18:57:49
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Meanwhile I'm just wondering if we'll be able to use redone Fantasy units like the Blood Knights or Direwolves.
The majority of the AOS range is more or less a perfect fit with the Old World.
Oof too true.
It's not like they were gonna sculpt a whole new High Elf range right? You might see Lumineth and some other AoS armies crossover but more likely this Old World will be temporary and the 3 factions will be put into AoS once they're done milking it.
Old World Prediction: The Empire will have stupid Clockwork Paragon Warsuits and Mecha Horses
2021/07/01 19:15:11
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Meanwhile I'm just wondering if we'll be able to use redone Fantasy units like the Blood Knights or Direwolves.
This is on my mind aswell. There is going to be an enormous mini-overlap between AOS and TOW. The majority of the AOS range is more or less a perfect fit with the Old World.
Will they re-box everything and make everything usuable with both games? One mini-range, two rule systems?
I mean there's also quite a few factions that simply never existed in Fantasy - Kharadron, Idoneth, Lumineth, Nightgaunt, Ossiriarchs, and most blatantly, Stormcasts.
For sure, they don't fit with the Old World. But if we separate game world and game rules? Stormcasts on squares for rank-and-file games, Bretonnians on rounds for skirmish games. I mean the rules doesn't have to be tied to the setting.
I don't know anything about this ofcourse but I'm very curious about what GW have planned or already put in to motion. The ranges WILL overlap whether GW intend for this or not. I wonder how they plan to handle it, imbrace it or try to build a wall between the games.
It's not like they were gonna sculpt a whole new High Elf range right? You might see Lumineth and some other AoS armies crossover but more likely this Old World will be temporary and the 3 factions will be put into AoS once they're done milking it.
Well, we don't know. But yeah, Skaven, Chaos, Night Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms, Vampire Counts Lizardmen etc are already there. People are going to use them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/01 19:23:14
2021/07/01 19:39:45
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Mr Morden wrote: The Tzarina, the Ice Queen arrives (as the most powerful Ice Witch) in 4th Ed WFB and Ice Witches are explored fully in 1st Ed WFRP in Realms of Sorcery - later expanded in 2nd ed Realm of the Ice Queen.
It's true that RoS came in 1st edition, but it's also kind of deceptive, in the sense that it came long, long after WFRP got discontinued by GW and it got re-released by Hogshead Publishing (SiRiK got published on 1988, RoS in 2001), which, as has been the case with anything licensed, has to toe the line of whatever was already there in WFB, and by then the Ice Queen/Witches had long been established in WFB. Same thing with dwarves not having actual wizards and the like, unlike the original 1st edition.
2021/07/01 20:14:08
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Meanwhile I'm just wondering if we'll be able to use redone Fantasy units like the Blood Knights or Direwolves.
The majority of the AOS range is more or less a perfect fit with the Old World.
Oof too true.
It's not like they were gonna sculpt a whole new High Elf range right? You might see Lumineth and some other AoS armies crossover but more likely this Old World will be temporary and the 3 factions will be put into AoS once they're done milking it.
Just why would you think that? A project they know people really, really want, that returns to the old setting again with them having revamped and expanded classic armies, that even sets things in an earlier unseen time period, all the while being said to be akin to the Horus Heresy series...and you think i'll be something the don't bother to put any actual effort in so will just re-use AoS armies and treat it like a temporary project? I don't get it at all.
They're making a whole new Kislev range. Why would they not do the same to other armies?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/01 20:16:28
2021/07/01 20:29:21
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Meanwhile I'm just wondering if we'll be able to use redone Fantasy units like the Blood Knights or Direwolves.
The majority of the AOS range is more or less a perfect fit with the Old World.
Oof too true.
It's not like they were gonna sculpt a whole new High Elf range right? You might see Lumineth and some other AoS armies crossover but more likely this Old World will be temporary and the 3 factions will be put into AoS once they're done milking it.
Just why would you think that? A project they know people really, really want, that returns to the old setting again with them having revamped and expanded classic armies, that even sets things in an earlier unseen time period, all the while being said to be akin to the Horus Heresy series...and you think i'll be something the don't bother to put any actual effort in so will just re-use AoS armies and treat it like a temporary project? I don't get it at all.
They're making a whole new Kislev range. Why would they not do the same to other armies?
Because if it goes in the direction it appears to be there will be a lot of crossover with AoS, it's going be redundant. Fantasy has never had the popularity of WH40k so the pool of players to pull from is smaller too, now they split that smaller player base between two games that are nearly identical. What's the hook? Can square bases(or movement trays) alone attract enough of a player base long term? I expect the bare minimum of support for this game from GW. The final purpose of a new Kislev army would be to put them in AoS when they are done with this side project.
Horus Heresy has the advantage of catering to the most popular army in the most popular game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be incredibly ironic however, if the Old World suddenly entered a new boom period, as the AoS and 40K players flocked to it, so they can play on square bases. The very thing they hated.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/01 20:48:26
Old World Prediction: The Empire will have stupid Clockwork Paragon Warsuits and Mecha Horses
2021/07/01 21:08:07
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Mentlegen324 wrote: Just why would you think that? A project they know people really, really want, that returns to the old setting again with them having revamped and expanded classic armies, that even sets things in an earlier unseen time period, all the while being said to be akin to the Horus Heresy series...and you think i'll be something the don't bother to put any actual effort in so will just re-use AoS armies and treat it like a temporary project? I don't get it at all.
They're making a whole new Kislev range. Why would they not do the same to other armies?
You asked Goose but I would like to chime in as well. We don't know for sure that they're making a whole new Kislev Range or anything else about the game. It would be a massive undertaking to revamp even a modest portion of the old range, and large parts of the old range, like Skaven, are still there in AOS-packaging. It's not unthinkable that GW have planned to rely heavily on re-releases of older kits to support the game.
Other plans are of course also possible.
We really need some more info from GW about the game to revitalize the debate, the disscussion have kind of run it's course by now.
2021/07/02 04:50:03
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's very clearly two, and only encompasses a minority of units. So it cannot be the one tone you were referring to. With all due respect please let us know the actual "one tone" you are speaking of instead of beating around the bush.
Most of the new stuff is ice, bears, or ice bears, though. I like the confluence of Slavic influence in the form of Polish lancers or Cossack infantry, but those are all holdovers from the WHFB days. The new stuff is pretty one note.
So not only were you BSing us with the 'one note' you are shifting the goal posts to cover it and STILL missing the mark since there are new units which are neither ice nor bear themed. That is some serious bad-faith discussion right there.
I'm not the person who originally used the phrase 'one-note', nor is the other person you attacked, so this stuff about bad-faith goalpost-shifting is ridiculous. Take a chill pill and pay some attention to who you're replying to.
Galas wrote:Kislev has always been russians, polish, ices and bears.
Have they? Because that's what seems a little off to me- Kislev was an amalgamation of Slavic influences first and foremost, with minimal focus on ice or bears. You had ice wizards as their magic lore, and a single special character riding a bear, but that was it. Magic ice sleds pulled by bears is where it starts to feel like flanderization to me, or at least really playing up the high fantasy elements.
It's like if Empire comes back and most of their new units are robot or tank themed. Yes, they had those, but they were one-off things that represented the flavor of the faction, not dominating elements of the army roster.
I will try phrasing it as clearly as I can, though this is going to seem more blunt than I mean it.
"The new stuff is pretty one note." This statement is objectively false. It is not supported by the reality.
As to the larger concept of this being a trend towards a higher-fantasy setting, that is also false. The evidence does not support that viewpoint. The concept of WHFB as a gritty low fantasy setting is not grounded in reality, even when adding the qualifiers of pre-8th, human-only, non-Chaos, western regions only. There is no 'defense' GW but simply stating what is true and calling out what is not.
If someone does not like the Kislev roster that is fine. What people have a problem with is individuals who create a false narrative. What irks me personally is when such individuals are called on it and try to deflect by moving the goalposts or ad hominem instead of just admitting that their memory of the setting is not representative.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/02 04:52:03
