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 Grundz wrote:
Thought:

Cherubs you roll two dice, pick one, and it must be used by that unit or it is lost

order of the sacred rose warlord trait: when the warlord uses a miracle, get another miracle dice, isn't super useful because it negates the order roll, but the one that gives you one on each turn doesn't for some reason, take that
order of the sacred rose: whenever you commit an act of faith, on a 5+ you gain another miracle dice

1cp test of faith for D3 more when used on a character.

This seems like a significant dice economy.
All your squads take a banner and cherub, your warlord takes the relic bolt pistol
Warlord moves up and shoots, you burn a dice on one of the rolls, on a 5+ you gain another one from the order, for 1cp you gain D3 more on top of that, you can do this every turn.
now your squads eat their cherubs and shoot or whatever, you use the dice on a 5+ you gain another one for each spent
You burn a cp whenever you commit valor (most turns(?) for another D3
All these rolls can be increased by 1 by a dialogus

so every round you're getting 2, plus another D3 from the warlord, plus another one on a 5+, so an average of 5 or 6 dice a turn
then a third of the ones you are spending on your squads are being refunded, plus another D3 on most turns, this seems like it will either snowball or every damage roll you ever make you can sub in dice

If you have the room for a detachment of mostly-not-sororitas models, taking a high churn unit like melta retributors as ebon chalice lets you recycle your low rolls into even more 6's

I dont know, it seems like it may be feasable, if silly.

You've got the things slightly mixed up here. Vessel of the Emperor's Will is the one that gives you a single Miracle Dice whenever a character performs an Act of Faith. Test of Faith is the one that gives d3 Miracle Dice whenever you gain a Miracle Dice from Purity or Valour. Test of Faith is strong enough that I don't actually consider Light of the Emperor to be a dud Rite; every morale test is a 30% chance of 2-4 Miracle Dice.

However, Vessel does stack with the Sacred Rose Warlord Trait, so you can throw a crappy dice into a 2+ to hit roll or something and get two Miracle Dice out of the other end. I'm not sure that's the best use of CPs though.

Quick rules check:
If I take a Retributor squad with 2 Armorium Cherbus: I can use both of them in the same turn right?

 lash92 wrote:
Quick rules check:
If I take a Retributor squad with 2 Armorium Cherbus: I can use both of them in the same turn right?

Armorium Cherub wrote:If this unit has an Armoriun Cherub, then after a model in this unit shoots with a ranged weapon, that Armorium Cherub can reload that model's weapon.if it does, that Armorium Cherub is removed from play and that model can immediately shoot with that ranged weapon again.

An Armorium Cherub is represented by an Armorium Cherub model, but does not count as a model for any rules purposes. Whilst a unit with an Armorium Cherub is on the battlefield, that Armorium Cherub must be within 2" of it.

Nothing in that is limiting you. And it seems to actually be carefully written, so I would say so.

I am confused why there seems to be such hate directed towards the Triumph. to me, the model seems like the ideal distraction carnifex centerpiece to a foot based sisters army.

imagine the Triumph in the middle of a Valorous Heart foot list. You will have at least one Imagifier providing ignore -1AP for obvious reasons in the list. You will probably have Mortifiers tempting the enemy to direct D6 damage type weaponry at them because Mortifiers look really good and she gives them +1 to hit, and you'll definitely have a good number of Celestians to protect your canonesses and imagifiers from snipers.

To hurt the Triumph your opponent will be shooting into -1 to hit, 4++ invuln, then a 2+ to shrug to a celestian who gets a 6++ FNP against the mortal wound. A 35pt Hospitallier can heal the thing every turn for D3 wounds with no need to roll. You can use two fate dice in the enemy shooting phase if you want to and adjust them up by 1, so any fate die you have that shows 3 or more is an attack that will not hurt the Triumph guaranteed.

So yeah, it's gonna soak a holy buttload of fire. But it also seems perfectly set up to do exactly that and keep your opponent from targeting other models you want to protect like Mortifiers or Retributors or Storm Bolter Dominions looking to use the blessed bolts stratagem with 2+ rerollable to hit.

the_scotsman wrote:
I am confused why there seems to be such hate directed towards the Triumph. to me, the model seems like the ideal distraction carnifex centerpiece to a foot based sisters army.

imagine the Triumph in the middle of a Valorous Heart foot list. You will have at least one Imagifier providing ignore -1AP for obvious reasons in the list. You will probably have Mortifiers tempting the enemy to direct D6 damage type weaponry at them because Mortifiers look really good and she gives them +1 to hit, and you'll definitely have a good number of Celestians to protect your canonesses and imagifiers from snipers.

To hurt the Triumph your opponent will be shooting into -1 to hit, 4++ invuln, then a 2+ to shrug to a celestian who gets a 6++ FNP against the mortal wound. A 35pt Hospitallier can heal the thing every turn for D3 wounds with no need to roll. You can use two fate dice in the enemy shooting phase if you want to and adjust them up by 1, so any fate die you have that shows 3 or more is an attack that will not hurt the Triumph guaranteed.

So yeah, it's gonna soak a holy buttload of fire. But it also seems perfectly set up to do exactly that and keep your opponent from targeting other models you want to protect like Mortifiers or Retributors or Storm Bolter Dominions looking to use the blessed bolts stratagem with 2+ rerollable to hit.

Celestian's can't cover the Triumph, it doesn't have the Order keyword. If it did, then yeah it'd be fantastic. I agree that I think it's decent though.

the_scotsman wrote:
I am confused why there seems to be such hate directed towards the Triumph. to me, the model seems like the ideal distraction carnifex centerpiece to a foot based sisters army.

imagine the Triumph in the middle of a Valorous Heart foot list. You will have at least one Imagifier providing ignore -1AP for obvious reasons in the list. You will probably have Mortifiers tempting the enemy to direct D6 damage type weaponry at them because Mortifiers look really good and she gives them +1 to hit, and you'll definitely have a good number of Celestians to protect your canonesses and imagifiers from snipers.

To hurt the Triumph your opponent will be shooting into -1 to hit, 4++ invuln, then a 2+ to shrug to a celestian who gets a 6++ FNP against the mortal wound. A 35pt Hospitallier can heal the thing every turn for D3 wounds with no need to roll. You can use two fate dice in the enemy shooting phase if you want to and adjust them up by 1, so any fate die you have that shows 3 or more is an attack that will not hurt the Triumph guaranteed.

So yeah, it's gonna soak a holy buttload of fire. But it also seems perfectly set up to do exactly that and keep your opponent from targeting other models you want to protect like Mortifiers or Retributors or Storm Bolter Dominions looking to use the blessed bolts stratagem with 2+ rerollable to hit.

Imagifers only work on units with the same order, while the ToSK doesn't have an order. Same with trying to body guard it with Celestians. They only body guard the same order. Only a -1 isn't that insurmountable, and most armies that want it dead won't have much trouble doing far more than 1d3 wounds to it a turn.

the_scotsman wrote:
I am confused why there seems to be such hate directed towards the Triumph. to me, the model seems like the ideal distraction carnifex centerpiece to a foot based sisters army.

imagine the Triumph in the middle of a Valorous Heart foot list. You will have at least one Imagifier providing ignore -1AP for obvious reasons in the list. You will probably have Mortifiers tempting the enemy to direct D6 damage type weaponry at them because Mortifiers look really good and she gives them +1 to hit, and you'll definitely have a good number of Celestians to protect your canonesses and imagifiers from snipers.

To hurt the Triumph your opponent will be shooting into -1 to hit, 4++ invuln, then a 2+ to shrug to a celestian who gets a 6++ FNP against the mortal wound. A 35pt Hospitallier can heal the thing every turn for D3 wounds with no need to roll. You can use two fate dice in the enemy shooting phase if you want to and adjust them up by 1, so any fate die you have that shows 3 or more is an attack that will not hurt the Triumph guaranteed.

So yeah, it's gonna soak a holy buttload of fire. But it also seems perfectly set up to do exactly that and keep your opponent from targeting other models you want to protect like Mortifiers or Retributors or Storm Bolter Dominions looking to use the blessed bolts stratagem with 2+ rerollable to hit.

So here's why:

You can't 2+ shrug to a Celestian, as the Triumph lacks the <Order> keyword that the Celestians protect. She doesn't benefit from the Imagifier's "ignore -1 rend" for the same reason. You can heal her with the Hospitaller, but then you aren't healing something else (like, say, returning a member to a multi-melta ret squad and already making her points back. Much better than 1 wound on the Triumph, and only slightly less good than 3). You can use 1 Miracle Dice to protect her in the enemy Shooting Phase, not 2, as she doesn't have a Simulacrum, and then you can't use that die for anything else (since it's only 1 per phase), and she has the same invuln and abilities as a Canoness near a Dialogus (4++ with +1/-1 modifier), which even combined are much cheaper. You can also use the Moment of Grace stratagem to add up to +3 to a Canoness's save roll, if I remember correctly.

So no, you can't pawn wounds off to Celestians.
She can't ever ignore -1 armor.
No, she's not a great target for a Hospitaller compared to some others.
And she sucks down as many Miracle Dice keeping her alive as she generates.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I am confused why there seems to be such hate directed towards the Triumph. to me, the model seems like the ideal distraction carnifex centerpiece to a foot based sisters army.

imagine the Triumph in the middle of a Valorous Heart foot list. You will have at least one Imagifier providing ignore -1AP for obvious reasons in the list. You will probably have Mortifiers tempting the enemy to direct D6 damage type weaponry at them because Mortifiers look really good and she gives them +1 to hit, and you'll definitely have a good number of Celestians to protect your canonesses and imagifiers from snipers.

To hurt the Triumph your opponent will be shooting into -1 to hit, 4++ invuln, then a 2+ to shrug to a celestian who gets a 6++ FNP against the mortal wound. A 35pt Hospitallier can heal the thing every turn for D3 wounds with no need to roll. You can use two fate dice in the enemy shooting phase if you want to and adjust them up by 1, so any fate die you have that shows 3 or more is an attack that will not hurt the Triumph guaranteed.

So yeah, it's gonna soak a holy buttload of fire. But it also seems perfectly set up to do exactly that and keep your opponent from targeting other models you want to protect like Mortifiers or Retributors or Storm Bolter Dominions looking to use the blessed bolts stratagem with 2+ rerollable to hit.

So here's why:

You can't 2+ shrug to a Celestian, as the Triumph lacks the <Order> keyword that the Celestians protect. She doesn't benefit from the Imagifier's "ignore -1 rend" for the same reason. You can heal her with the Hospitaller, but then you aren't healing something else (like, say, returning a member to a multi-melta ret squad and already making her points back. Much better than 1 wound on the Triumph, and only slightly less good than 3). You can use 1 Miracle Dice to protect her in the enemy Shooting Phase, not 2, as she doesn't have a Simulacrum, and then you can't use that die for anything else (since it's only 1 per phase), and she has the same invuln and abilities as a Canoness near a Dialogus (4++ with +1/-1 modifier), which even combined are much cheaper. You can also use the Moment of Grace stratagem to add up to +3 to a Canoness's save roll, if I remember correctly.

So no, you can't pawn wounds off to Celestians.
She can't ever ignore -1 armor.
No, she's not a great target for a Hospitaller compared to some others.
And she sucks down as many Miracle Dice keeping her alive as she generates.

One of Katherine's relics is a Simulacrum Imperialis for all Adepta Sororitas units within 6", is it not? Which would include her. So you can use 2 miracle dice per turn of 3+ or better to keep her from taking wounds.

A canoness is indeed easier to protect, particularly because she is a character, but in my eyes that is part of the point of st katherine. Your opponent looks at T3, and looks at 18W, and then at a bunch of say Imperial Fist heavy bolters or autocannons and decides to direct them towards Katherine rather than towards the Retributors or Mortifiers you have nearby. An imp fist heavy bolter does 1.9 damage to a Mortifier on average if it's got a Captain and a Lieutenant in dev doctrine, and 0.68 to Katherine. It does less damage to a Retributor with a heavy boltgun if you're Valorous Heart, but still removes more points because Katherine pays 10pts per wound while retributors pay double that.

You can use a Dialogus and a Canoness with the Litanies for about half the point cost and get the same generation of miracle dice, the same +1/-1 shift, a slightly worse hit buff and you basically only give up the autopass morale and the 6" Simulacrum bubble, but you give up a very very good distraction carnifex. In my eyes, who cares if she uses 2 miracle dice in a shooting phase to make 2 lascannons not wound her? That's still a pair of lascannons that had exactly the same odds of hitting+wounding as against any of your vehicles (-1 to hit, and a 2+ to wound instead of a 3+) and you can use shittier miracle dice to save vs them than any other unit in your army.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I am confused why there seems to be such hate directed towards the Triumph. to me, the model seems like the ideal distraction carnifex centerpiece to a foot based sisters army.

imagine the Triumph in the middle of a Valorous Heart foot list. You will have at least one Imagifier providing ignore -1AP for obvious reasons in the list. You will probably have Mortifiers tempting the enemy to direct D6 damage type weaponry at them because Mortifiers look really good and she gives them +1 to hit, and you'll definitely have a good number of Celestians to protect your canonesses and imagifiers from snipers.

To hurt the Triumph your opponent will be shooting into -1 to hit, 4++ invuln, then a 2+ to shrug to a celestian who gets a 6++ FNP against the mortal wound. A 35pt Hospitallier can heal the thing every turn for D3 wounds with no need to roll. You can use two fate dice in the enemy shooting phase if you want to and adjust them up by 1, so any fate die you have that shows 3 or more is an attack that will not hurt the Triumph guaranteed.

So yeah, it's gonna soak a holy buttload of fire. But it also seems perfectly set up to do exactly that and keep your opponent from targeting other models you want to protect like Mortifiers or Retributors or Storm Bolter Dominions looking to use the blessed bolts stratagem with 2+ rerollable to hit.

So here's why:

You can't 2+ shrug to a Celestian, as the Triumph lacks the <Order> keyword that the Celestians protect. She doesn't benefit from the Imagifier's "ignore -1 rend" for the same reason. You can heal her with the Hospitaller, but then you aren't healing something else (like, say, returning a member to a multi-melta ret squad and already making her points back. Much better than 1 wound on the Triumph, and only slightly less good than 3). You can use 1 Miracle Dice to protect her in the enemy Shooting Phase, not 2, as she doesn't have a Simulacrum, and then you can't use that die for anything else (since it's only 1 per phase), and she has the same invuln and abilities as a Canoness near a Dialogus (4++ with +1/-1 modifier), which even combined are much cheaper. You can also use the Moment of Grace stratagem to add up to +3 to a Canoness's save roll, if I remember correctly.

So no, you can't pawn wounds off to Celestians.
She can't ever ignore -1 armor.
No, she's not a great target for a Hospitaller compared to some others.
And she sucks down as many Miracle Dice keeping her alive as she generates.

One of Katherine's relics is a Simulacrum Imperialis for all Adepta Sororitas units within 6", is it not? Which would include her. So you can use 2 miracle dice per turn of 3+ or better to keep her from taking wounds.

A canoness is indeed easier to protect, particularly because she is a character, but in my eyes that is part of the point of st katherine. Your opponent looks at T3, and looks at 18W, and then at a bunch of say Imperial Fist heavy bolters or autocannons and decides to direct them towards Katherine rather than towards the Retributors or Mortifiers you have nearby. An imp fist heavy bolter does 1.9 damage to a Mortifier on average if it's got a Captain and a Lieutenant in dev doctrine, and 0.68 to Katherine. It does less damage to a Retributor with a heavy boltgun if you're Valorous Heart, but still removes more points because Katherine pays 10pts per wound while retributors pay double that.

You can use a Dialogus and a Canoness with the Litanies for about half the point cost and get the same generation of miracle dice, the same +1/-1 shift, a slightly worse hit buff and you basically only give up the autopass morale and the 6" Simulacrum bubble, but you give up a very very good distraction carnifex. In my eyes, who cares if she uses 2 miracle dice in a shooting phase to make 2 lascannons not wound her? That's still a pair of lascannons that had exactly the same odds of hitting+wounding as against any of your vehicles (-1 to hit, and a 2+ to wound instead of a 3+) and you can use shittier miracle dice to save vs them than any other unit in your army.

But if her only function is to be a distraction carnifex, she's not distracting anymore. A distraction carnifex is a distraction because if you ignore it, it can still smash you. It just isn't your main effort.

Meanwhile, the Triumph... does nothing. A couple wounds that you throw miracle dice at for saves means you suck down more miracle dice than it creates, meaning that for your opponent, aside from throwing those two shots at it, it's better to leave it alive because it's actively detrimental. If you don't throw the Miracle Dice into the saves, then you take wounds rapidly and die.

So you're losing Miracle Dice to keep her alive, and you're gaining autopass morale in an army that wants to roll as many morale checks as possible to generate 1+d3 miracle dice, and a 6" bubble of something that costs 5pts per unit anyways. For 185 points.

the_scotsman wrote:
Your opponent looks at T3, and looks at 18W, and then at a bunch of say Imperial Fist heavy bolters or autocannons and decides to direct them towards Katherine rather than towards the Retributors or Mortifiers you have nearby.

I guess once opponents become more used to seeing the sisters there is the question of how much the buffs and unit itself contributes when the retributors and mortifiers get target priority. She doesn't make anything particularly harder to kill beyond moral checks, and doesn't buff shooting or contribute shooting herself other than handing out miracle dice.
A gunline sitting back and shooting at the sisters wouldn't seem to be under any real pressure to target her until she gets into rapid fire range.

Whats everyones opinion on the Order of our Martyred Lady? I'm not going to lie, as a Ultramarine/House Terryn/Mars/Cadian player I have weird thing for playing the poster armies (or as my wife calls me, Basic, >< ). So its likely I will be painting them up as that Order. I like the extra miracle dice and the +1 to hit, plus the special character is pretty rad. I really want to build this army right and will be my first ever planned from the start army (usually mine are the "ill split a box special" or second hand) and I want to make it something special. I imagine that OooML is going to be infantry heavy in order to really shine.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I am confused why there seems to be such hate directed towards the Triumph. to me, the model seems like the ideal distraction carnifex centerpiece to a foot based sisters army.

imagine the Triumph in the middle of a Valorous Heart foot list. You will have at least one Imagifier providing ignore -1AP for obvious reasons in the list. You will probably have Mortifiers tempting the enemy to direct D6 damage type weaponry at them because Mortifiers look really good and she gives them +1 to hit, and you'll definitely have a good number of Celestians to protect your canonesses and imagifiers from snipers.

To hurt the Triumph your opponent will be shooting into -1 to hit, 4++ invuln, then a 2+ to shrug to a celestian who gets a 6++ FNP against the mortal wound. A 35pt Hospitallier can heal the thing every turn for D3 wounds with no need to roll. You can use two fate dice in the enemy shooting phase if you want to and adjust them up by 1, so any fate die you have that shows 3 or more is an attack that will not hurt the Triumph guaranteed.

So yeah, it's gonna soak a holy buttload of fire. But it also seems perfectly set up to do exactly that and keep your opponent from targeting other models you want to protect like Mortifiers or Retributors or Storm Bolter Dominions looking to use the blessed bolts stratagem with 2+ rerollable to hit.

So here's why:

You can't 2+ shrug to a Celestian, as the Triumph lacks the <Order> keyword that the Celestians protect. She doesn't benefit from the Imagifier's "ignore -1 rend" for the same reason. You can heal her with the Hospitaller, but then you aren't healing something else (like, say, returning a member to a multi-melta ret squad and already making her points back. Much better than 1 wound on the Triumph, and only slightly less good than 3). You can use 1 Miracle Dice to protect her in the enemy Shooting Phase, not 2, as she doesn't have a Simulacrum, and then you can't use that die for anything else (since it's only 1 per phase), and she has the same invuln and abilities as a Canoness near a Dialogus (4++ with +1/-1 modifier), which even combined are much cheaper. You can also use the Moment of Grace stratagem to add up to +3 to a Canoness's save roll, if I remember correctly.

So no, you can't pawn wounds off to Celestians.
She can't ever ignore -1 armor.
No, she's not a great target for a Hospitaller compared to some others.
And she sucks down as many Miracle Dice keeping her alive as she generates.

One of Katherine's relics is a Simulacrum Imperialis for all Adepta Sororitas units within 6", is it not? Which would include her. So you can use 2 miracle dice per turn of 3+ or better to keep her from taking wounds.

A canoness is indeed easier to protect, particularly because she is a character, but in my eyes that is part of the point of st katherine. Your opponent looks at T3, and looks at 18W, and then at a bunch of say Imperial Fist heavy bolters or autocannons and decides to direct them towards Katherine rather than towards the Retributors or Mortifiers you have nearby. An imp fist heavy bolter does 1.9 damage to a Mortifier on average if it's got a Captain and a Lieutenant in dev doctrine, and 0.68 to Katherine. It does less damage to a Retributor with a heavy boltgun if you're Valorous Heart, but still removes more points because Katherine pays 10pts per wound while retributors pay double that.

You can use a Dialogus and a Canoness with the Litanies for about half the point cost and get the same generation of miracle dice, the same +1/-1 shift, a slightly worse hit buff and you basically only give up the autopass morale and the 6" Simulacrum bubble, but you give up a very very good distraction carnifex. In my eyes, who cares if she uses 2 miracle dice in a shooting phase to make 2 lascannons not wound her? That's still a pair of lascannons that had exactly the same odds of hitting+wounding as against any of your vehicles (-1 to hit, and a 2+ to wound instead of a 3+) and you can use shittier miracle dice to save vs them than any other unit in your army.

But if her only function is to be a distraction carnifex, she's not distracting anymore. A distraction carnifex is a distraction because if you ignore it, it can still smash you. It just isn't your main effort.

Meanwhile, the Triumph... does nothing. A couple wounds that you throw miracle dice at for saves means you suck down more miracle dice than it creates, meaning that for your opponent, aside from throwing those two shots at it, it's better to leave it alive because it's actively detrimental. If you don't throw the Miracle Dice into the saves, then you take wounds rapidly and die.

So you're losing Miracle Dice to keep her alive, and you're gaining autopass morale in an army that wants to roll as many morale checks as possible to generate 1+d3 miracle dice, and a 6" bubble of something that costs 5pts per unit anyways. For 185 points.

So, I've played with several people who play daemons all edition, and we have always ruled that there is nothing preventing a unit that automatically passes morale tests from making a morale roll if it has an ability that benefits from rolling a particular number (such as the daemons' banners).

The morale rule simply says you make a morale check for all units that have suffered 1 or more casualties during a turn, and compare to its leadership value to determine if you fail. An ability to automatically pass just means you never fail. Not rolling the dice when you automatically pass is, technically speaking, a house rule.

She also does have a +1 to hit aura, and can certainly carve up most infantry targets in melee with her 14 attacks if ignored.

I'm not arguing that Katherine works in every sisters list, she for sure doesn't. But I'm definitely way more interested in her than I am in either Judith or Celestine, particularly in lists where you want something else for enemy D6 damage anti tank weapons to target (i.e., lists that use Exorcists) or lists where you want to funnel enemy mid strength multidamage weaponry like Autocannons (i.e., lists that use Mortifiers).

In a pure valorous heart foot list...yeah, you'd probably be better off sticking with a Rod of Office+Litanies of Faith Canoness (not that you can't also have one of those with Katherine).

The +1 to-hit only works in Melee, remember.

And the "you can still roll even if you auto-pass" thing is technically true, but I can't imagine the number of veins popping on my opponent's forehead when I start rolling 6s, generating miracle dice on a 1, and being like "sorry, I autopass", rolling a 6 with one girl left.

And I agree with you on not being interested in Judith or Celestine. I'm also not interested in the Triumph. I think the most powerful options available to us, given our stratagems, are actually the more basic units. The Special Characters just don't excite me.

Let us not forget the most glaring weakness of >>> Toughness 3 <<< means the Triumph will get wounded by everything on a 2+ or 3+, which'll chew through those wounds really quickly, 3+, 4++, 6+++ or not.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The +1 to-hit only works in Melee, remember.

And the "you can still roll even if you auto-pass" thing is technically true, but I can't imagine the number of veins popping on my opponent's forehead when I start rolling 6s, generating miracle dice on a 1, and being like "sorry, I autopass", rolling a 6 with one girl left.

And I agree with you on not being interested in Judith or Celestine. I'm also not interested in the Triumph. I think the most powerful options available to us, given our stratagems, are actually the more basic units. The Special Characters just don't excite me.

I mean, you can't really count "my opponent might get angry at me for playing the rules correctly in a situation where doing so gives me an advantage" against the efficacy of a unit.

Right now, the strongest sisters setup is almost certainly a valorous heart foot build aiming at completely hosing the mid-strength -1/-2AP multidamage weapon spam space marine meta. Multiple imagifiers granting ignore -2AP, no vehicles for Imp Fists to get bonus damage against, lots of celestians to tank Raven Guard eliminator wounds on your characters, and a canoness with the +1 to shield of faith trait buffing a screen line of Seraphim who do not give a feth about infiltrating assault centurions. Just swarm onto objectives with a sea of ridiculously durable 9pt bodies with the occasional inferno pistol ready to be supremely irritating with miracle dice.

Until doctrines get nerfed basically nobody should be looking past valorous heart, it is far and away the best trait any faction in the game has to deal with doctrines unless you're one of the factions that just has invulnerable saves anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frowbakk wrote:
Let us not forget the most glaring weakness of >>> Toughness 3 <<< means the Triumph will get wounded by everything on a 2+ or 3+, which'll chew through those wounds really quickly, 3+, 4++, 6+++ or not.

Toughness 3 and -1 to hit though, and she pays just slightly over 10 points per wound, meaning only a basic battle sister is more efficient defensively against anti-infantry weapons, and against S8+ weaponry she's exactly as efficient to hit and wound as all your vehicles.

volcanoisme wrote:

Rynner wrote:
I've played 5 with the new codex. I played twice vs Chaos, once vs Iron Hands, Necrons, and Tau. Each game was at 1500 because of a local 1 day GT around here everyone wants to practice for.

It's really amusing, Tau used to be a horrendous match up but now it's laughably easy.

Kinda curious to what list you’ve been testing to that result, if you dont mind me asking!

I've only played 1500 point games as theres an Iron Man event coming up in the area (1500 points, 1 day, 5 rounds) that I'm running. I'm not playing in the event but people wanted to practice and get used to the time limit so I played vs them.

The list was roughly:

Valorous Heart Battalion:

Canoness
Preist
3x Stock BSS Squads
1x Imaginifer
1x Dialogues
3x Exorcists

Bloody Rose Outrider

Canoness - Chainsword/Inferno Pistol
Celestine
3x 10 Woman Seraphim Squads with 4x Inferno Pistols, 1x Plasma Pistol

Edit:

LEGENDS IS LIVE.

RIP Storm Bolter Superiors.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/c579975b.pdf

 Grundz wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

Rynner wrote:
Simulacrum Imperialis - I didn't take them in the beta and none of the list's I'm working on have a need for them. I could see their value in Retribiturs, large BSS squads, or Dome but I don't see myself using those units right now.

Superiors can't take a Storm Bolter anymore.

You can take them as long as the index still exists.

so a weekish

Legends just dropped. Quick weekish! I was way off with January. So.. what this tell us is that we can still use stormbolters on superiors all day long, unless our TOs ban Legends? I'm waiting to see ITC's stance on it.

I'm now thinking how to put storm bolters on everyone.

Legends is allowed at this year's LVO before going into effect next season. Reece talked about on a podcast.

Rynner wrote:
LEGENDS IS LIVE.
RIP Storm Bolter Superiors.

I guess everyone just remember to poke GW in their feedback as appropriate - that options should not be culled for models that exist in the new plastic kits, notably the canoness weapon swaps, seraphim pistols, and sticking a superiors head on a stormbolter model.


Kyrinov... probably not valid anywhere competitively but 22 extra points to get a choice of two moral dice when hunting for 1s. Plus an extra wound and actual contribution in the combat phase.

Playing Custodes in about an hour, Battalion/Vanguard pure Valourous Heart. Our group posts our lists pre game but don't tailor and as a personal rule I don't mix traits in an army unless my opponent does it first.

I tried to keep the list simple as I've not got the codex and Battlescribe hasn't updated so its nothing fancy as I wouldn't be able to keep all the rules straight in my head.

for a second i thought new cannoness came with a bolter by standard and was thinking of the sillyness of 2 bolters + storm bolter with legacy options, but at least i can still use my double bolter cannoness or bolter+SB cannoness

 Sim-Life wrote:
Playing Custodes in about an hour, Battalion/Vanguard pure Valourous Heart. Our group posts our lists pre game but don't tailor and as a personal rule I don't mix traits in an army unless my opponent does it first.

I tried to keep the list simple as I've not got the codex and Battlescribe hasn't updated so its nothing fancy as I wouldn't be able to keep all the rules straight in my head.

Live stream it. Let's rock!

So I think I'll try and take this list for a whirl this weekend.

It's a far cry from Ye Olde Immolator Spammmmm...e but should be fun to have tanks shoot Infantry and Infantry shoot tanks.

Also trying out 'Jetbike Junith" and see if she's worth re-rolling 1's to hit and wound for 2 Exorcists in the early game before linking up with Seraphim from reserve.

8th Ed “Witch Hunters” List: 2000 points, 14 ~ 16 CP




Looking forward to shooting Inquisitorial Plasma out of the back of Repressors for gitz and shiggles.

I was massively anti the Triumph when it was first revealed but I'm coming round.

The defence is a bit of an illusion. Yes they can kill it - but I don't think there is a way to do so especially efficiently. Feel free to hose it with heavy bolters - they would tear apart regular sisters squads all over the place instead. Lascannons etc meanwhile can be relatively easily miracle dice saved.

I think the issue is whether it does enough offensively. You have essentially no conventional shooting - and the ebon chalice blam to units in 6" isnt going to come up in the first turn at least. 14 attacks may sound like a lot, but its not really for 185 points - certainly 10 S5 AP-1 attacks, even at effectively WS2+, isn't worth that much. She kills a fair few orks but I think you would expect her to kill 3.5 Primaris a go.

Its really about whether the miracle dice economy "works" (and with it the various buffs related to that). I was very cynical, but I may be coming round - and it might be what makes Matyred Lady and Sacred Rose really good. I'm thinking silly things like having the Triumph deployed close enough to Exorcists on deployment - my opponent wants to try and wittle them down with say Butcher Cannons (or other low AP/2 damage weapons)? Well I can break out two definite saves using miracle dice down to 3s. Or use them to just give me some guaranteed hits if I go first. On the basis of cascading effectiveness it potentially warps the entire game.

I think part of the problem is that it's particularly poorly suited to the current marine meta moment. The current lists to beat all

A) Rely very heavily on S4-S5 AP-1/AP-2 firepower

B) Sit stationary at 30" range and rely heavily on killing large amounts of models at range, rather than in melee, and generally only look to assert board control after they've dismantled a large fraction of the enemy army.

the Triumph is a big weak spot in your list's armor against a setup like that. But imagine a meta based around something more like competitive Orks: A battery of single shot, BS4+ AP-3 D6 damage artillery that wants to kill your heavy stuff with swarms of T4 6+ W1 bodies that will be using Da Jump to deep strike 30 boyz at a time at you in an attempt to slow you down so they can go establish objective control.

Suddenly the optimal list to handle that shifts more towards the Bloody Rose instead of Valorous Heart, because you're not facing really any AP-1/Ap-2 and a unit that can heroically intervene and chew up 8 ork boyz in combat is a pretty big pain in the ass especially if the front line of your list has Retributors with 12" range heavy flamers who are already going to put a dent in overwatch.

It never fails that people are perfectly happy to gauge a unit's overall usefulness solely on its performance in this exact meta moment, despite there being a pretty solid monthly rotation in what exactly is the style of list to beat.

I'd also strongly encourage folks to do a little math and see exactly how vulnerable to firepower this thing is. Why, it only takes the combined firepower from...let's see...six leman russ punishers double tapping into it to get through its 18 wounds in one turn!

That kind of firepower attacking Ork Boyz would only kill 466 points of them!

Stormbolter sergeants are out for tournament players. That's a pretty big hit considering there's no sergeant equipment even close to as good as the stormbolter AND we're not getting all that many points back for it. A brigade+battalion list would only save 18pts max.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
I think part of the problem is that it's particularly poorly suited to the current marine meta moment. The current lists to beat all

A) Rely very heavily on S4-S5 AP-1/AP-2 firepower

B) Sit stationary at 30" range and rely heavily on killing large amounts of models at range, rather than in melee, and generally only look to assert board control after they've dismantled a large fraction of the enemy army.

the Triumph is a big weak spot in your list's armor against a setup like that. But imagine a meta based around something more like competitive Orks: A battery of single shot, BS4+ AP-3 D6 damage artillery that wants to kill your heavy stuff with swarms of T4 6+ W1 bodies that will be using Da Jump to deep strike 30 boyz at a time at you in an attempt to slow you down so they can go establish objective control.

Suddenly the optimal list to handle that shifts more towards the Bloody Rose instead of Valorous Heart, because you're not facing really any AP-1/Ap-2 and a unit that can heroically intervene and chew up 8 ork boyz in combat is a pretty big pain in the ass especially if the front line of your list has Retributors with 12" range heavy flamers who are already going to put a dent in overwatch.

It never fails that people are perfectly happy to gauge a unit's overall usefulness solely on its performance in this exact meta moment, despite there being a pretty solid monthly rotation in what exactly is the style of list to beat.

I'd also strongly encourage folks to do a little math and see exactly how vulnerable to firepower this thing is. Why, it only takes the combined firepower from...let's see...six leman russ punishers double tapping into it to get through its 18 wounds in one turn!

That kind of firepower attacking Ork Boyz would only kill 466 points of them!

I would argue that it's worse against Orkz than marines because orkz can kill it with less resource investment. Ork pistols will grind through it fairly quickly.

The things not worried about dying to lascannons, it's worried about soaking up every 'well, I've got nothing better to shoot at...' gun on the table. Especially considering that its chart is brutal.

ERJAK wrote:
Stormbolter sergeants are out for tournament players. That's a pretty big hit considering there's no sergeant equipment even close to as good as the stormbolter AND we're not getting all that many points back for it. A brigade+battalion list would only save 18pts max.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
I think part of the problem is that it's particularly poorly suited to the current marine meta moment. The current lists to beat all

A) Rely very heavily on S4-S5 AP-1/AP-2 firepower

B) Sit stationary at 30" range and rely heavily on killing large amounts of models at range, rather than in melee, and generally only look to assert board control after they've dismantled a large fraction of the enemy army.

the Triumph is a big weak spot in your list's armor against a setup like that. But imagine a meta based around something more like competitive Orks: A battery of single shot, BS4+ AP-3 D6 damage artillery that wants to kill your heavy stuff with swarms of T4 6+ W1 bodies that will be using Da Jump to deep strike 30 boyz at a time at you in an attempt to slow you down so they can go establish objective control.

Suddenly the optimal list to handle that shifts more towards the Bloody Rose instead of Valorous Heart, because you're not facing really any AP-1/Ap-2 and a unit that can heroically intervene and chew up 8 ork boyz in combat is a pretty big pain in the ass especially if the front line of your list has Retributors with 12" range heavy flamers who are already going to put a dent in overwatch.

It never fails that people are perfectly happy to gauge a unit's overall usefulness solely on its performance in this exact meta moment, despite there being a pretty solid monthly rotation in what exactly is the style of list to beat.

I'd also strongly encourage folks to do a little math and see exactly how vulnerable to firepower this thing is. Why, it only takes the combined firepower from...let's see...six leman russ punishers double tapping into it to get through its 18 wounds in one turn!

That kind of firepower attacking Ork Boyz would only kill 466 points of them!

I would argue that it's worse against Orkz than marines because orkz can kill it with less resource investment. Ork pistols will grind through it fairly quickly.

The things not worried about dying to lascannons, it's worried about soaking up every 'well, I've got nothing better to shoot at...' gun on the table. Especially considering that its chart is brutal.

Yeah, if your opponent can manage to get...let's see...

477 slugga boyz within 12", they'll tear through the Triumph like nothing!

If you run the Triumph alongside pretty much any of the more expensive sororitas units like Retributors or Seraphim, the Triumph is a less efficient target than those units for anti-infantry weaponry of basically every profile. I HOPE my opponent throws sluggas, choppa attacks, random heavy bolters, etc the direction of the Triumph - they're demonstrably less effective at attacking it than most every other unit I can field unless, again, I'm bringing a big Valorous Heart bodyspam list with tons of sisters.

Hoc Est Bellum wrote:


However, Vessel does stack with the Sacred Rose Warlord Trait, so you can throw a crappy dice into a 2+ to hit roll or something and get two Miracle Dice out of the other end. I'm not sure that's the best use of CPs though.

You're right, Its probably not a great use of CP outside of the first turn when you just need more dice to start your recycling train going, the trick seems to be having 1-2 dialogus around, any 1/2's you recycle through your warlord as fast as you can for any reason, 3's are useful, 4's can become automatic overwatch hits, 5/6's are for your damage rolls.

If you aren't going to just blow constant dice through your warlord to recycle them as armor saves, advances, hits, ect. you are going to need some more mechanics to discard them, I think I prefer churning 2-3 dice through the warlord a turn, once the lines meet your warlord could do silly things like sub in two 1's for charge roll just to recycle them.

by turn 3 you should be able to move and shoot heavy weapons and such at will just because you have so many dice stored up that anything you want to happen, does.

the_scotsman wrote:


Yeah, if your opponent can manage to get...let's see...

477 slugga boyz within 12", they'll tear through the Triumph like nothing!

If you run the Triumph alongside pretty much any of the more expensive sororitas units like Retributors or Seraphim, the Triumph is a less efficient target than those units for anti-infantry weaponry of basically every profile. I HOPE my opponent throws sluggas, choppa attacks, random heavy bolters, etc the direction of the Triumph - they're demonstrably less effective at attacking it than most every other unit I can field unless, again, I'm bringing a big Valorous Heart bodyspam list with tons of sisters.

Thanks for showing this with actual math. It's surprisingly more durable than I thought. Exalted.