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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Whether AoS is good or bad execution is entirely subjective; people quite often blur the distinction between "I don't like this thing" and "this thing is objectively bad" it's something we all need to watch out for.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Geifer wrote:
Voss wrote:
So... Karl Franz is going to ride out from Altdorf to reconquer Sylvania from the evil Van Carsteins in the next AoS supplement?


That's already happened. Except it was Karl Franz's much cooler boss riding out from his super flashy lightning-wreathed capital to put Von Carstein's more eviler boss in his place not in some blighted backwater province but in the actual REALM OF DEATH (capitalized for being much more metal than Sylvania) for not assisting his liege when called upon and generally trying to undermine the established order.

People and cultures from the Old World exist in AoS just fine, only flanderized and stereotyped beyond recognition. Themes, too. The only thing I'd give you are places, where GW went with a more magical monoform geography than the good old earth but with magic. The geography of AoS is actually functionally different. Even so if I were inclined to go with your idea of a reboot, I'd say three out of four aren't bad.

But then I don't hold reboots in high regard specifically because in their execution they tend not to respect the original material enough for my liking and only superficially resemble it. There's an idealized view of what a reboot should be and in my experience most reboots don't measure up to it.Thus I stand by my opinion that AoS is a reboot. It doesn't have to be a good execution of the concept to be one.


Could you go into detail about how you think the races are flanderized and stereotyped even more than they were in fantasy? Because every race there was every fantasy stereotype stuffed in as hard as possible.
   
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Albany, NY

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
Voss wrote:


Could you go into detail about how you think the races are flanderized and stereotyped even more than they were in fantasy? Because every race there was every fantasy stereotype stuffed in as hard as possible.




Please don't. This thread sucks enough as it is. Neither news nor rumors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 22:49:06


   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Prometheum5 wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
Voss wrote:


Could you go into detail about how you think the races are flanderized and stereotyped even more than they were in fantasy? Because every race there was every fantasy stereotype stuffed in as hard as possible.




Please don't. This thread sucks enough as it is. Neither news nor rumors.


We have to do something until the weekend news release!

As for rumours that's a very dry well now. GW is marketing like crazy so I'm guessing many of the staff that used to leak out info no longer want to risk their job to leak out info that we'll learn of through official channels anyway in good time. Plus the release schedule is so full its not like there's a week without some juicy news. We get the odd hint here and there, but by and large we don't get much now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 23:05:33


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 Prometheum5 wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
Voss wrote:


Could you go into detail about how you think the races are flanderized and stereotyped even more than they were in fantasy? Because every race there was every fantasy stereotype stuffed in as hard as possible.




Please don't. This thread sucks enough as it is. Neither news nor rumors.


I'm just curious. You get sweeping statements like that and it seems very rare anyone ever wants to actually explain what they mean.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I find sweeping statements should often be read with the context of "I feel like..." Written in front of it. In my experience it tends to be a person trying to express their feelings about a subject instead of making a literal statement, though they may not be aware of that or how a text-based communication medium can misdirect things.

Not saying that is or isn't the case here, just my general experience.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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Seems pretty evident. wood elves were elves that lived in the woods and were close to nature, now they are literally tree-elves. Dwarves were the most technologically advanced race in the OW, in AOS, they are so technologically advanced, that they seems to be straight out of a Star Trek episode

Same thing for Ironjaws (even bigger orcs than the previously biggest orc subspecies: black orcs).

Don't think it's necessarly a bad thing, since these three releases were probably my favorite one for AOS style wise.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/22 02:29:16


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

Sylvaneth aren't Elves.

They're forest spirits that have assumed the shape of Elves. That's been there since the start of AoS.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Yeah, much like the Wild rider of Kournous aren't (weren't) elves either. Still, apparence wise, they are indistinguishable from elves (well the half elf part of the tree revenants
of course) . And it goes without saying that the Sylvaneth are the AOS version of WHFB WE

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/22 03:30:59


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

Except they're not.

We don't know what the Kurnothi(Skaeth's Wild Hunt from Beastgrave) are, backstory-wise. All we know is that they have a connection to Kurnoth and Alarielle.
The Tree Revenants literally took that form because of memories of the Protectors(Wanderers/Wood Elves). It's also why they have the weapons that they do, echoing the same.
   
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Vigo. Spain.

Flanderization is an inevitable ocurrence when those new AoS armies are made taking one small part of a greater army of fantasy and making an army out of it.

Take slayers and make fyreslayers, take black orcs and make Ironjawz, etc, etc...

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

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Except Tree-Revenants, Spite-Revenants, and Alarielle are all expansions of the Forest Spirits that were originally only things made completely of wood; Treemen, Dyrads, Tree-Kin. Kurnoth hunters are the only thing that fits the flanderization aspect.

Fyreslayers take the slayer aspect in a completely different direction. They share the name, the mohawks, and the bare skin. Everything else is different, not flanderized. I could go on.

Some things are to be sure, but a sweeping judgement of ApS armies as all flanderized falls into the same problem most sweeping statements do: they overgeneralize to the point of inaccuracy. That ties back into my comment above, where what a person actually means is that the setting FEELS like flanderized everything not so much that it actually is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/22 03:57:22


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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Kanluwen wrote:
Except they're not.

We don't know what the Kurnothi(Skaeth's Wild Hunt from Beastgrave) are, backstory-wise. All we know is that they have a connection to Kurnoth and Alarielle.
The Tree Revenants literally took that form because of memories of the Protectors(Wanderers/Wood Elves). It's also why they have the weapons that they do, echoing the same.



You're being needlessly pedantic. I was referring to the fact that the theme, esthetic and history of both factions, share a lot of simlarities. Obviously, no new faction in AOS will be a direct port of a WHFB army, but therE's an obvious link between Sylvaneth and WE, much like there's an obvious one between fyreslarer and Slayers (even though their fluff is different)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/22 04:39:13


lost and damned log
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Whether AoS is good or bad execution is entirely subjective; people quite often blur the distinction between "I don't like this thing" and "this thing is objectively bad" it's something we all need to watch out for.


Please note that I'm not saying AoS is bad on its own merits. Just as a reboot of Warhammer Fantasy (which I believe was GW's intention at the time).

There's nothing inherently wrong with AoS as its own setting.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Spoiler:
 Geifer wrote:
Voss wrote:
So... Karl Franz is going to ride out from Altdorf to reconquer Sylvania from the evil Van Carsteins in the next AoS supplement?


That's already happened. Except it was Karl Franz's much cooler boss riding out from his super flashy lightning-wreathed capital to put Von Carstein's more eviler boss in his place not in some blighted backwater province but in the actual REALM OF DEATH (capitalized for being much more metal than Sylvania) for not assisting his liege when called upon and generally trying to undermine the established order.

People and cultures from the Old World exist in AoS just fine, only flanderized and stereotyped beyond recognition. Themes, too. The only thing I'd give you are places, where GW went with a more magical monoform geography than the good old earth but with magic. The geography of AoS is actually functionally different. Even so if I were inclined to go with your idea of a reboot, I'd say three out of four aren't bad.

But then I don't hold reboots in high regard specifically because in their execution they tend not to respect the original material enough for my liking and only superficially resemble it. There's an idealized view of what a reboot should be and in my experience most reboots don't measure up to it.Thus I stand by my opinion that AoS is a reboot. It doesn't have to be a good execution of the concept to be one.


Could you go into detail about how you think the races are flanderized and stereotyped even more than they were in fantasy? Because every race there was every fantasy stereotype stuffed in as hard as possible.


Galas summed up the reason why I believe so nicely. It's mostly rooted in GW's original insistence to shatter functional factions into mini-factions themed around a very specific thing and either keeping them that way and pretending they were still in any way functional or building on them with further, thematically appropriate kits to make functional, if small armies out of them.

As an example, Daughters of Khaine are made up of a sub-subfaction of Dark Elves. Witch Elves were a part of Dark Elf society, but only a part of it, and contributed to shape the whole faction. AoS, on the other hand, treats them as their own faction and expanded the model line to make a functional army out of them, but what you're looking at background-wise is a cult of elves that is treated entirely as its own faction that is discrete from other elven factions and is culturally uniform.

I got very different impressions out of reading Army Book: Dark Elves and Battletome: Daughters of Khaine as far as the cultures of the described factions are concerned. Even accounting for different writing styles, Daughters of Khaine simply doesn't have as much to tell on the matter because it narrowed down the culture to a part of the Khainite aspect.

I assume novels and consolidating mini-faction have mitigated that to a degree, but for me the initial impression still lingers that an aspect of a culture was taken that had a strong identity and was readily identifiable to fans and then turned into a discrete faction for AoS that was that one thing and nothing else. I don't know of a better way to call that than flanderization.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






 Geifer wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Whether AoS is good or bad execution is entirely subjective; people quite often blur the distinction between "I don't like this thing" and "this thing is objectively bad" it's something we all need to watch out for.


Please note that I'm not saying AoS is bad on its own merits. Just as a reboot of Warhammer Fantasy (which I believe was GW's intention at the time).

There's nothing inherently wrong with AoS as its own setting.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Spoiler:
 Geifer wrote:
Voss wrote:
So... Karl Franz is going to ride out from Altdorf to reconquer Sylvania from the evil Van Carsteins in the next AoS supplement?


That's already happened. Except it was Karl Franz's much cooler boss riding out from his super flashy lightning-wreathed capital to put Von Carstein's more eviler boss in his place not in some blighted backwater province but in the actual REALM OF DEATH (capitalized for being much more metal than Sylvania) for not assisting his liege when called upon and generally trying to undermine the established order.

People and cultures from the Old World exist in AoS just fine, only flanderized and stereotyped beyond recognition. Themes, too. The only thing I'd give you are places, where GW went with a more magical monoform geography than the good old earth but with magic. The geography of AoS is actually functionally different. Even so if I were inclined to go with your idea of a reboot, I'd say three out of four aren't bad.

But then I don't hold reboots in high regard specifically because in their execution they tend not to respect the original material enough for my liking and only superficially resemble it. There's an idealized view of what a reboot should be and in my experience most reboots don't measure up to it.Thus I stand by my opinion that AoS is a reboot. It doesn't have to be a good execution of the concept to be one.


Could you go into detail about how you think the races are flanderized and stereotyped even more than they were in fantasy? Because every race there was every fantasy stereotype stuffed in as hard as possible.


Galas summed up the reason why I believe so nicely. It's mostly rooted in GW's original insistence to shatter functional factions into mini-factions themed around a very specific thing and either keeping them that way and pretending they were still in any way functional or building on them with further, thematically appropriate kits to make functional, if small armies out of them.

As an example, Daughters of Khaine are made up of a sub-subfaction of Dark Elves. Witch Elves were a part of Dark Elf society, but only a part of it, and contributed to shape the whole faction. AoS, on the other hand, treats them as their own faction and expanded the model line to make a functional army out of them, but what you're looking at background-wise is a cult of elves that is treated entirely as its own faction that is discrete from other elven factions and is culturally uniform.

I got very different impressions out of reading Army Book: Dark Elves and Battletome: Daughters of Khaine as far as the cultures of the described factions are concerned. Even accounting for different writing styles, Daughters of Khaine simply doesn't have as much to tell on the matter because it narrowed down the culture to a part of the Khainite aspect.

I assume novels and consolidating mini-faction have mitigated that to a degree, but for me the initial impression still lingers that an aspect of a culture was taken that had a strong identity and was readily identifiable to fans and then turned into a discrete faction for AoS that was that one thing and nothing else. I don't know of a better way to call that than flanderization.


Now you see here's where i have a different experience from you. To me, when i read the old dark elf army books, the only experience i got was here's the 2D lol so edgy race, murder, rape, torture etc. (Incidentally the same issue i have with Dark Eldar). There was no real culture beyond that. Not that I ever saw anyway.

When we got the Daughters, we got one of the only interesting parts of the Dark Elves and they got expanded. We learned they're not just a murder cult, but can function in other societies, even thrive in them while they keep their blooded worship to themselves. How the society functions under Morathi is quite fascinating too. She lives on quite the figurative knife edge, risking massive civil war if the bulk of the Daughters ever realised what she was really doing.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






 streetsamurai wrote:

You're being needlessly pedantic. I was referring to the fact that the theme, esthetic and history of both factions, share a lot of simlarities. Obviously, no new faction in AOS will be a direct port of a WHFB army, but therE's an obvious link between Sylvaneth and WE, much like there's an obvious one between fyreslarer and Slayers (even though their fluff is different)


Now you're just moving the goalpost.

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Dark Elves may not be a particularly good example of it (but I used it because Daughters are actually the last battletome I read) because they're a splinter faction of High Elves, and something commonly experienced in fantasy (or sci-fi) settings is that humans get to have the full breadth of character we know and love from real life while other races are stereotyped into certain racial traits. So Dark Elves are, depending on your perception, one or two steps more specific in their depiction and as such an entire people of 2D murdertorturerapists. But I'd argue that if you work within that context, they as a faction are still a step or two above Daughters depending on whether you view the latter as padded out Witch Elves or a different take on the Khainite cult.

I see your point and it's certainly not wrong that the Daughters background benefits from being an Order faction that got written into coexisting in civilized society to justify their existence in Order instead of, say, Destruction, but I'd argue that's a separate issue born of the different settings. Old Fantasy was set up as a free for all with individual army books delineating factions while AoS started out with Grand Alliances that are still the highest order even though faction identities got strengthened as GW moved towards 2nd ed battletomes. Dark Elves could be written without concern for how they would interact peacefully with other factions because there was no strict need for peaceful interaction. AoS with its strong theme of working together to stem the tide of Chaos cannot easily afford to leave unexplained how an Order faction deals with other Order factions.

That's more a question of style of setting and narrative need than strictly factional traits, in my opinion.

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Why is the rum always gone? 
   
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Could I ask, what is flanderization?
   
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Smellingsalts wrote:
Could I ask, what is flanderization?


Excessive exaggeration of a trait.

Space wolves for example.

Wolf Lord on a Thunder Wolf, with a wolffist hammer, named Wulf Wolfenson, leading Space wolves of the Blood Wolf company.
Rather than maintain their Scandinavian/Nordic naming conventions and culture in the Horus Heresy, they've been progressing towards just being Wolves in Space over the course of the editions.

I don't see that in AoS honestly, aside from DoK being focused on Murder. Even then they're not ALL called Murderella, weilding murder knives, wearing murder rags as they yell Murder for the Murder God... While that is present, they've got the Gorgon/Greecian vibe from a lot of their newer units.

Edit: Not that there isn't any in AoS. Its just not as prevelant at the moment because we've only had a few years for things to develop. Unlike certain faction's like space marines that only differentiate themselves from one another by flanderizing....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/22 16:32:38


PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
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Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
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 Carnikang wrote:
Smellingsalts wrote:
Could I ask, what is flanderization?


Excessive exaggeration of a trait.

Space wolves for example.

Wolf Lord on a Thunder Wolf, with a wolffist hammer, named Wulf Wolfenson, leading Space wolves of the Blood Wolf company.
Rather than maintain their Scandinavian/Nordic naming conventions and culture in the Horus Heresy, they've been progressing towards just being Wolves in Space over the course of the editions.

I don't see that in AoS honestly, aside from DoK being focused on Murder. Even then they're not ALL called Murderella, weilding murder knives, wearing murder rags as they yell Murder for the Murder God... While that is present, they've got the Gorgon/Greecian vibe from a lot of their newer units.


This conflation probably comes down to the ridiculous new approach to naming. It's not necessarily something that is inherent to AoS, but more of an unfortunate timing with AoS being released shortly after the Chapterhouse litigation was settled.
   
Made in us
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 Carnikang wrote:
Smellingsalts wrote:
Could I ask, what is flanderization?


Excessive exaggeration of a trait.

Space wolves for example.

Wolf Lord on a Thunder Wolf, with a wolffist hammer, named Wulf Wolfenson, leading Space wolves of the Blood Wolf company.
Rather than maintain their Scandinavian/Nordic naming conventions and culture in the Horus Heresy, they've been progressing towards just being Wolves in Space over the course of the editions.

I don't see that in AoS honestly, aside from DoK being focused on Murder. Even then they're not ALL called Murderella, weilding murder knives, wearing murder rags as they yell Murder for the Murder God... While that is present, they've got the Gorgon/Greecian vibe from a lot of their newer units.

Edit: Not that there isn't any in AoS. Its just not as prevelant at the moment because we've only had a few years for things to develop. Unlike certain faction's like space marines that only differentiate themselves from one another by flanderizing....


See also: Khorne Mortals who seem to have been named by Nathan Explosion.

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
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Smellingsalts wrote:
Could I ask, what is flanderization?
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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 EnTyme wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
Smellingsalts wrote:
Could I ask, what is flanderization?


Excessive exaggeration of a trait.

Space wolves for example.

Wolf Lord on a Thunder Wolf, with a wolffist hammer, named Wulf Wolfenson, leading Space wolves of the Blood Wolf company.
Rather than maintain their Scandinavian/Nordic naming conventions and culture in the Horus Heresy, they've been progressing towards just being Wolves in Space over the course of the editions.

I don't see that in AoS honestly, aside from DoK being focused on Murder. Even then they're not ALL called Murderella, weilding murder knives, wearing murder rags as they yell Murder for the Murder God... While that is present, they've got the Gorgon/Greecian vibe from a lot of their newer units.

Edit: Not that there isn't any in AoS. Its just not as prevelant at the moment because we've only had a few years for things to develop. Unlike certain faction's like space marines that only differentiate themselves from one another by flanderizing....


See also: Khorne Mortals who seem to have been named by Nathan Explosion.
To be fair that's not new. Khorne naming conventions have always involved things like bodyparts, blood, bone, or in some special cases teeth and angry like emotions. Though it's mostly been background for weapons or army names rather then units.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/22 17:15:23


 
   
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 EnTyme wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:

You're being needlessly pedantic. I was referring to the fact that the theme, esthetic and history of both factions, share a lot of simlarities. Obviously, no new faction in AOS will be a direct port of a WHFB army, but therE's an obvious link between Sylvaneth and WE, much like there's an obvious one between fyreslarer and Slayers (even though their fluff is different)


Now you're just moving the goalpost.


Not at all. I don't think you know what moving the goal post means

lost and damned log
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Recent shipping bill lists "WARSCROLL CARDS SONS OF BEHEMAT" so it looks like the Aleguzzler Gargants are coming soon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/22 17:52:13


 
   
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 DaveC wrote:
Recent shipping bill lists "WARSCROLL CARDS SONS OF BEHEMAT" so it looks like the Aleguzzler Gargants are coming soon.


Oh boi, Giants vs light and pointy elves will be a battlebox coming soon I bet

PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
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Florence, KY

 DaveC wrote:
Recent shipping bill lists "WARSCROLL CARDS SONS OF BEHEMAT" so it looks like the Aleguzzler Gargants are coming soon.

Sounds like fun. If this Rumor Engine pic isn't related to this release I'll be very surprised...

Spoiler:

Maybe we'll get a teaser from the LVO Preview tomorrow night!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/22 18:08:23


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

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A giant army could be really cool

lost and damned log
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