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 Crimson wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And if you believe that AoS takes no inspiration from real world you are mistaken basically because everything takes inspiration from the real world and cultures, we don't have anything more to compare too.

That isn't what I meant, and you know it isn't.

Bretonnian - French Civilary, Arthurian folklore.
Chaos Dwarves - Assyrian, Babylonian.
Empire - Holy Roman Empire, Leonardo DiVinci's sketches.
Ogre Kingdoms - palaeolithic, Mongolian.

Etc.

That real world recognition and inspiration is missing from Age of Sigmar. I look at the Kharadron Overlords, and it leaves me cold. The old WFB races were a way to hook people into real life history, for a lot of people it was the spring board that got them into history. I used to work for GW, and a lot of the kids asked about the inspiration from the races. I really can't see that being possible with Age of Sigmar... GW have deliberately designed it so that it is a unique IP and not easy to replicate or reproduce to stop third parties... before anyone who want to play Empire or Bretonnians had a wealth of historical kits to choose from.

So you prefer lazy copypaste? I'm pretty done with that type of fantasy cultures, unless the setting is explicitly some sort of parallel/weird history one. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the Empire with their crazy landsknecht couture, but you could combine that with some other cultural influences and fantasy elements to create something even more unique. Creating interesting fantasy civilisations with their own style and material culture is really difficult, and I appreciate that GW is doing that now. And it still requires taking inspiration from real world, it just is more subtle. For example the Lumineth seem to blend the ancient Greek and Chinese influences with fantasy elements.

Oh, I agree. I’d much rather see something unique. The biggest problem I have with AoS though is that I don’t believe that these cultures coexist. They too often come across as a random mishmash of cool ideas, but with no coherent, unifying theme to convince me that the Mortal Realms is a real place.

The best comparison I can make is with the old D&D campaign setting Planescape. That had a similar setup of various planes of existence, inhabited by everything from Norse Gods to living polyhedra. Yet it managed to feel like a real place where people actually lived. It achieved this in part because it took the time from the outset to detail the lives of ordinary people in the planes. Perhaps more importantly though, it unified these disparate elements through a unique, distinctive art style which made you believe that these wildly varying races and cultures did actually rub shoulders in the same setting.

In my mind, AoS utterly fails on this count. There is nothing about, say, Kharadron Overlords or Daughters of Khaine (or any two other random armies) that gives any feeling that they are part of the same setting. Individual models may look great and the art is often excellent, but nothing either sets them apart stylistically from other fantasy art or serves to unify them as a believable world. I’m left feeling that AoS is less than the sum of its parts.

I see KO as pulp era explorers. Full helmet diving suits. Tesla style guns. More modern history than ancient.

K Overlords are actually (IMO) well written developments of the Dwarf race from WFB who we already moving (very slowly) towards the next level of technology.

I like that they are pragmatic but curious, rule bound but not completly anti-inovation.

The Code is quite fun. https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kharadron_Code

I prefer them to the Fyreslayers tbh.

The Daughters of Khaine have got some interesting story elements - like other the "Dark Elfs" in the Alliance of Order they retain their darker side but temper it somewhat when around the Sigmarites, they are also an insideous element with that society working towards their own goals.

Dwarves in the Old World were actually KO advanced long before, however when their society crumbled and fell they ended up splintering into guilds and the engineers guild basically put a huge ban on whole segments of technology. I suspect to prevent it getting into the hands of others whilst their people were in a weakened state. And dwarves being dwarves once it was set in stone in a book it stuck.

In the Gotrek and Felix stories one dwarven engineer rebels and builds a huge airship. Granted its more base gases than the strange orbs that the KO use; but it showed that the dwarves of that world could have advanced far further.


So yes the KO are quite a natural evolution of the old world dwarves without technological restrictions holding them back.




Daughters of Khaine I really wish would get fleshed out more; though they get one big bonus in that one of their people now appears to be quite firmly Gotrek's current companion. I think they are very three tier faction from what I can see in terms of the regular peoples and then the "cult" within their own ranks; followed up by Morathi and her creations on top of it all (and in the shadows).

They also seem to shift a bit depending on the writer from "Amazonian" style warrioresses and society; and a blood/torture/twisted cult.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Oh, I agree. I’d much rather see something unique. The biggest problem I have with AoS though is that I don’t believe that these cultures coexist. They too often come across as a random mishmash of cool ideas, but with no coherent, unifying theme to convince me that the Mortal Realms is a real place.

The best comparison I can make is with the old D&D campaign setting Planescape. That had a similar setup of various planes of existence, inhabited by everything from Norse Gods to living polyhedra. Yet it managed to feel like a real place where people actually lived. It achieved this in part because it took the time from the outset to detail the lives of ordinary people in the planes. Perhaps more importantly though, it unified these disparate elements through a unique, distinctive art style which made you believe that these wildly varying races and cultures did actually rub shoulders in the same setting.

In my mind, AoS utterly fails on this count. There is nothing about, say, Kharadron Overlords or Daughters of Khaine (or any two other random armies) that gives any feeling that they are part of the same setting. Individual models may look great and the art is often excellent, but nothing either sets them apart stylistically from other fantasy art or serves to unify them as a believable world. I’m left feeling that AoS is less than the sum of its parts.

I don't think that the lack of cohesion and 'realness' has much to do with the visual them of the factions. It is due the lack of connective tissue. There simply isn't enough of the 'world' that would tie them together. The setting is just so big and amorphous and the information is scattered.

 Overread wrote:
Dwarves in the Old World were actually KO advanced long before, however when their society crumbled and fell they ended up splintering into guilds and the engineers guild basically put a huge ban on whole segments of technology. I suspect to prevent it getting into the hands of others whilst their people were in a weakened state. And dwarves being dwarves once it was set in stone in a book it stuck.

In the Gotrek and Felix stories one dwarven engineer rebels and builds a huge airship. Granted its more base gases than the strange orbs that the KO use; but it showed that the dwarves of that world could have advanced far further.

So yes the KO are quite a natural evolution of the old world dwarves without technological restrictions holding them back.

Daughters of Khaine I really wish would get fleshed out more; though they get one big bonus in that one of their people now appears to be quite firmly Gotrek's current companion. I think they are very three tier faction from what I can see in terms of the regular peoples and then the "cult" within their own ranks; followed up by Morathi and her creations on top of it all (and in the shadows).

They also seem to shift a bit depending on the writer from "Amazonian" style warrioresses and society; and a blood/torture/twisted cult.

Indeed there are a number of the novels where Dwarf tech is highly advanced but is got rid of in the same book usually to stop other races (especialyl Skaven) getting hold of it - Thanquol has Dwarf steam powered Sentry Guns and wonder metals for instance

Malenth is a great character but does suffer from different people depicting her differently - still had some interesting insights into The Daughters through her and also the recent short story about the Temple of Serpents and how they help you...... Similar the Arika Zenth stories put some flesh on the Scourge faction.

The Daughters definately have levels or tiers and also have their public face.

Some of the auxillary lore does a better job of fleshing out the setting and giving a better idea of how factions interact.

Was reading Myths and Revenants, and I was particularly entertained by the stories concerning the KO and how they interact with the greater realms.

 Overread wrote:
Daughters of Khaine I really wish would get fleshed out more

I think that is more of a Slaanesh thing, actually

I think the only Gotrek story that stands out at present is the Bone Dessert one. Mostly because they seem to soften toward each other come the end, but we don't tend to see that relationship reciprocated in any of the others.

The only other part of her that seems to vary is the degree to which she talks too and relies on her blood amulet and the "soul fragment/whatever" within it.

Otherwise she's "fairly" stable as a character. Not quite as stable as Felix was, but then again she's dealing with some conflicting emotions and thoughts.

 Overread wrote:
I think the only Gotrek story that stands out at present is the Bone Dessert one. Mostly because they seem to soften toward each other come the end, but we don't tend to see that relationship reciprocated in any of the others.

The only other part of her that seems to vary is the degree to which she talks too and relies on her blood amulet and the "soul fragment/whatever" within it.

Otherwise she's "fairly" stable as a character. Not quite as stable as Felix was, but then again she's dealing with some conflicting emotions and thoughts.

Yeah I really enjoyed the Bone Desert but the author does not seem to be the one being asked to write her/them.

I'd like to see Gotrek come out of his shell a bit. In Ghoulslayer it suffered a little because he, at present, has a very one-dimensional focus. Granted in the original stories that was very true too, however now he's free from seeking his doom (sort of - he's still a slayer at heart) he's sort of got room to not so much grow but reveal himself a bit more.

We see hints here and there, but I don't think we'll see proper settled growth until he's got a fixed author for a few linked and confirmed publications to give him room to develop and evolve a bit.

Will we? I fear Gotrek is a fully flanderized corporate machine like 40k imperial heros. He will forever be reduced to unlikeable grump who complains about the mortal realms. Just give mommy Maleneth her own book series and be done with it, she's clearly the more entertaining of the two, and it spares us the cringy "we had to super-sayian Gotrek to give him a chance in the realms" plot device.

 Overread wrote:
I think the only Gotrek story that stands out at present is the Bone Dessert one.

Bone Dessert sounds like something Heston Blumenthal would serve up...

Cronch wrote:
Just give mommy Maleneth her own book series and be done with it, she's clearly the more entertaining of the two, and it spares us the cringy "we had to super-sayian Gotrek to give him a chance in the realms" plot device.

The book would likely be just a list of things that give her a headache.

 Mr Morden wrote:
K Overlords are actually (IMO) well written developments of the Dwarf race from WFB who we already moving (very slowly) towards the next level of technology.

I like that they are pragmatic but curious, rule bound but not completly anti-inovation.

The Code is quite fun. https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kharadron_Code

I prefer them to the Fyreslayers tbh.

The Daughters of Khaine have got some interesting story elements - like other the "Dark Elfs" in the Alliance of Order they retain their darker side but temper it somewhat when around the Sigmarites, they are also an insideous element with that society working towards their own goals.

I like Kharadrons but I can't help but think I'd like them much more without aether-gold. It sounds silly to me like most of their recently made up names and chasing after random magic deposits seems weird. I'd be much happier if they pursued more common metals and used runes for the magic part of their ships.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:
Will we? I fear Gotrek is a fully flanderized corporate machine like 40k imperial heros. He will forever be reduced to unlikeable grump who complains about the mortal realms. Just give mommy Maleneth her own book series and be done with it, she's clearly the more entertaining of the two, and it spares us the cringy "we had to super-sayian Gotrek to give him a chance in the realms" plot device.

The what?

I mean, I like the fact that their whole civilization is based on one fuel source that is also used to make products, and it'd literally collapse if it'd run out, but they make no efforts to stop, being entirely addicted to it as a culture. It's so out there!

Cronch wrote:
I mean, I like the fact that their whole civilization is based on one fuel source that is also used to make products, and it'd literally collapse if it'd run out, but they make no efforts to stop, being entirely addicted to it as a culture. It's so out there!

Yet sounds SO familiar, could they have copied it from another setting? Of course I say setting, since such foolishness is clearly limited to the fictional.

The problem with common metals is that GW made a whole REALM of metal. Gold, silver, heck there's a flowing river of molten silver etc....

Of realms it and the Realm of Death are curious and tricky things to wrap peoples heads around functionally. With the Realm of Metals you create a realm where basically every resource we are used to being limited is now highly abundant and plentiful. Provided you've got mines there you can extract the best metals for any need - any war-machine has basically near limitless resources to function. A big thing to consider when your nations are starting to play with steam machines and mechanics.

Meanwhile the Realm of Death is populate by all the dead - ALL the Dead. Suddenly you've got a near limitless army that can war on any other and never technically lose. Of course Nagash still hasn't secured all the realms of Death within Death and its internal structure sounds a bit crazy/loose in terms of how different lands within the realm are created from the belief and afterlife of different host nations.

That is coupled with resources normally common being comparatively rare, too. It creates a very interesting if somewhat challenging writing opportunity and I am really excited to see where the setting goes. The new Seraphon fluff being (imo) such a massive improvement really feeds my optimism.

Also note Shyish doesn't have all the dead, probably not even the majority. Anyone devoted to Chaos has their soul go to them, factions like Sylvaneth and Idoneth have found ways to 'keep their souls in-faction' so to speak, and so on.

Ahh true, though it was interesting to me to note that the Skaven do have an underworld in the Realm of the Dead - one which I suspect Nagash will never conquer.

 Overread wrote:
The problem with common metals is that GW made a whole REALM of metal. Gold, silver, heck there's a flowing river of molten silver etc....

Of realms it and the Realm of Death are curious and tricky things to wrap peoples heads around functionally. With the Realm of Metals you create a realm where basically every resource we are used to being limited is now highly abundant and plentiful. Provided you've got mines there you can extract the best metals for any need - any war-machine has basically near limitless resources to function. A big thing to consider when your nations are starting to play with steam machines and mechanics.

Meanwhile the Realm of Death is populate by all the dead - ALL the Dead. Suddenly you've got a near limitless army that can war on any other and never technically lose. Of course Nagash still hasn't secured all the realms of Death within Death and its internal structure sounds a bit crazy/loose in terms of how different lands within the realm are created from the belief and afterlife of different host nations.

But apparently most of the Realms are normal. At least that's what I've been told. So you replace searching for weird magic metal gas with expeditions to weird magic lands where things like winds hurl shrapnel at you.

AoS seems to have veered one way at the start then had a hasty course correction a different way shortly after. Which to be honest I like because the very start of AoS was a train wreck.

pm713 wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The problem with common metals is that GW made a whole REALM of metal. Gold, silver, heck there's a flowing river of molten silver etc....

Of realms it and the Realm of Death are curious and tricky things to wrap peoples heads around functionally. With the Realm of Metals you create a realm where basically every resource we are used to being limited is now highly abundant and plentiful. Provided you've got mines there you can extract the best metals for any need - any war-machine has basically near limitless resources to function. A big thing to consider when your nations are starting to play with steam machines and mechanics.

Meanwhile the Realm of Death is populate by all the dead - ALL the Dead. Suddenly you've got a near limitless army that can war on any other and never technically lose. Of course Nagash still hasn't secured all the realms of Death within Death and its internal structure sounds a bit crazy/loose in terms of how different lands within the realm are created from the belief and afterlife of different host nations.

But apparently most of the Realms are normal. At least that's what I've been told. So you replace searching for weird magic metal gas with expeditions to weird magic lands where things like winds hurl shrapnel at you.

AoS seems to have veered one way at the start then had a hasty course correction a different way shortly after. Which to be honest I like because the very start of AoS was a train wreck.

The current fluff states that each realm is still growing. The inner lands of the realms (i.e., the oldest part of each realm) are mostly stable, whereas the closer you get to the edge of the realm the more unstable it is and the more likely you are to see things like winds that hurl shrapnel, etc.

pm713 wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The problem with common metals is that GW made a whole REALM of metal. Gold, silver, heck there's a flowing river of molten silver etc....

Of realms it and the Realm of Death are curious and tricky things to wrap peoples heads around functionally. With the Realm of Metals you create a realm where basically every resource we are used to being limited is now highly abundant and plentiful. Provided you've got mines there you can extract the best metals for any need - any war-machine has basically near limitless resources to function. A big thing to consider when your nations are starting to play with steam machines and mechanics.

Meanwhile the Realm of Death is populate by all the dead - ALL the Dead. Suddenly you've got a near limitless army that can war on any other and never technically lose. Of course Nagash still hasn't secured all the realms of Death within Death and its internal structure sounds a bit crazy/loose in terms of how different lands within the realm are created from the belief and afterlife of different host nations.

But apparently most of the Realms are normal. At least that's what I've been told. So you replace searching for weird magic metal gas with expeditions to weird magic lands where things like winds hurl shrapnel at you.

AoS seems to have veered one way at the start then had a hasty course correction a different way shortly after. Which to be honest I like because the very start of AoS was a train wreck.

I think you have two good points here--the areas with huge amounts of resources are also likely to be massively hazardous, and that GW has done a course correction with AoS.

 Crimson wrote:

Dread Master wrote:

I was speaking about the qualities that define mountains. In hermetic philosophy, they are masculine qualities.

JFC, stop pushing this inane gendered bs on inanimate geographical objects! If a mountain had a pink bow on it could it then be a girl mountain?

Cool your jets jack. I’m not “pushing” anything. I was clarifying what I based the statement on. EoS.

A new (not) pointy elf article is up about the most important thing in modern GW models:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/23/de-lightful-aelven-architecturegw-homepage-post-2/

I kinda like this desert themed one:

That was a waste of a biweekly update.

New elf society is a generic elf in decline society, and ruins are generally symbolic of symbolism. See you next time!

Sotahullu wrote:
I kinda like this desert themed one:

Spoiler:

I'm a big fan of beige stone buildings, but when it comes to a favorite from the article I actually like the style and color choices of the following one best, even if it's just grey:

I am not a fan of the sculpted grass/wheat. It collides with the static grass tufts because they look so different.

Voss wrote:
That was a waste of a biweekly update.

New elf society is a generic elf in decline society, and ruins are generally symbolic of symbolism. See you next time!

Showing the models atop of these fabulous ruins also demonstrates that they are entering a new era where they must rebuild these grand structures – and in doing so rebuild their once-great culture and society.

Does seem to be much more optimistic/post-fall than that. They're done falling, now they want to get up again.