Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2020/07/31 08:57:58
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
ImAGeek wrote: They’re already present on the Ebon Keshig models, so he’s consistent with the models, if not so much the fluff.
Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Considering the amount of relatively obscure Mongolian references throughout the scars novels and the black book, I would imagine it’s more a stylistic choice than a laziness thing. I don’t mind it myself, they aren’t (or shouldn’t be) 1:1 Space Mongols, they’re their own culture heavily inspired by Mongols. And it’s not like the Mongols didn’t assimilate parts of a lot of other cultures as their empire grew anyway.
That said, I understand why someone wouldn’t like it.
2020/07/31 12:38:17
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
ImAGeek wrote: They’re already present on the Ebon Keshig models, so he’s consistent with the models, if not so much the fluff.
Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Considering the amount of relatively obscure Mongolian references throughout the scars novels and the black book, I would imagine it’s more a stylistic choice than a laziness thing. I don’t mind it myself, they aren’t (or shouldn’t be) 1:1 Space Mongols, they’re their own culture heavily inspired by Mongols. And it’s not like the Mongols didn’t assimilate parts of a lot of other cultures as their empire grew anyway.
That said, I understand why someone wouldn’t like it.
I understand that. Also, I don't really believe that the writers and the minis designers talk much, so I don't really think it has much to do with it.
But even taking into account cultural assimilation and the like, well... japanese armor makes every bit as much sense there as a french sallet would (less, historically speaking for exactly the reasons you stated). Exactly equally out of context. But of course, it's japanese, so it's asian, so let's put it on the asian chapter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/31 12:40:04
2020/07/31 12:46:39
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
ImAGeek wrote: They’re already present on the Ebon Keshig models, so he’s consistent with the models, if not so much the fluff.
Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Considering the amount of relatively obscure Mongolian references throughout the scars novels and the black book, I would imagine it’s more a stylistic choice than a laziness thing. I don’t mind it myself, they aren’t (or shouldn’t be) 1:1 Space Mongols, they’re their own culture heavily inspired by Mongols. And it’s not like the Mongols didn’t assimilate parts of a lot of other cultures as their empire grew anyway.
That said, I understand why someone wouldn’t like it.
I understand that. Also, I don't really believe that the writers and the minis designers talk much, so I don't really think it has much to do with it.
But even taking into account cultural assimilation and the like, well... japanese armor makes every bit as much sense there as a french sallet would (less, historically speaking for exactly the reasons you stated). Exactly equally out of context. But of course, it's japanese, so it's asian, so let's put it on the asian chapter.
What's wrong with that exactly? Chogoris was settled by people drawn from all over modern day Asia so having one of the Chogorian empire the Khan conquered be stylistically Japanese would make sense. Then you'd have WS drawn from these populations.
2020/07/31 12:47:52
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
I did look up Mongolian armour and found examples of similar kinds of leg coverings, for what it’s worth, but I can’t vouch for the historical accuracy - they seem to be from modern recreations.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/31 12:48:01
2020/07/31 13:14:04
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
JSG wrote: What's wrong with that exactly? Chogoris was settled by people drawn from all over modern day Asia so having one of the Chogorian empire the Khan conquered be stylistically Japanese would make sense. Then you'd have WS drawn from these populations.
Well, for one, japanese styled stuff doesn't really work well with a horse nomadic people for a number of reasons, and japanese styled armor needed a fair more maintenance than the ones the mongols actually tended to use. So, you know, that's one.
But it's mainly the fact that here in the west we tend to equate "asian" and "japanese" aesthetics a lot of the time. And here, whit a culture that's always been stated as "Mongols in Space"? Japan, again. Weee, what a surprise.
It simply feels lazy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote: I did look up Mongolian armour and found examples of similar kinds of leg coverings, for what it’s worth, but I can’t vouch for the historical accuracy - they seem to be from modern recreations.
Hm... that feels... different xD. The kind of armor I'm familiar with is this:
Source: Denver Museum of Science and Nature's "Genghis Khan and the Mongolian Empire" exhibit.
Anyways, and not to derail it any longer, it's just that I don't think that it fit and personally I think it would have looked better with some other inspirations. I do like the helmet and the mini is cool otherwise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/31 13:19:09
2020/07/31 13:44:26
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
JSG wrote: What's wrong with that exactly? Chogoris was settled by people drawn from all over modern day Asia so having one of the Chogorian empire the Khan conquered be stylistically Japanese would make sense. Then you'd have WS drawn from these populations.
Well, for one, japanese styled stuff doesn't really work well with a horse nomadic people for a number of reasons, and japanese styled armor needed a fair more maintenance than the ones the mongols actually tended to use. So, you know, that's one.
The WS don't ride horses though, the Talasar did. There where plenty of Asian descended empires on Chogoris that weren't nomadic horsemen.
2020/07/31 14:51:13
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
JSG wrote: What's wrong with that exactly? Chogoris was settled by people drawn from all over modern day Asia so having one of the Chogorian empire the Khan conquered be stylistically Japanese would make sense. Then you'd have WS drawn from these populations.
Well, for one, japanese styled stuff doesn't really work well with a horse nomadic people for a number of reasons, and japanese styled armor needed a fair more maintenance than the ones the mongols actually tended to use. So, you know, that's one.
The WS don't ride horses though, the Talasar did. There where plenty of Asian descended empires on Chogoris that weren't nomadic horsemen.
Right, but...
"It is from the savage horse nomads of Chogoris that the White Scars raise their neophytes, who are well-suited to the White Scars' highly mobile way of war".
One would assume their cultural tropes would come from them.
2020/07/31 15:03:18
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
Yeah... while I like the Japanese look well enough, it is getting into that orientalist "all East Asian cultures are kind of interchangeable" aesthetic that ignores, along with differences, why certain structures arose.
We might be seeing the consequences of the Flanderization of the White Scars here. They were always intended to be inspired by various Asian cultures instead of just Mongols In Space, and that was less about the assumption that most of East Asia is culturally homogeneous enough to be interchangeable, and more that the original philosophy of designing Space Marines was to draw from multiple modern/historical sources of influence (such as Space Wolves originally being a mix of vikings and Celts despite the lack of any real similarities between the two beyond the stereotype of hairy wildmen).
Maybe I'm giving Forge World too much benefit of the doubt, and it could be that original intent is highly flawed anyway, or that it has been too long to go back, but Qin Xa being the leader of a unit named after the Mongolian imperial guard while wielding Chinese swords and wearing Japanese-styled armour with a Tibetan-inspired mask doesn't sound like a mistake to me.
2020/07/31 16:39:34
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
Yeah, I'm of the same opinion of Tim the Biovore. Just copypasting a real world culture is the lazy way of doing a fictional faction/race.
A proper autor takes inspiration from a ton of sources, and you don't need to have they all come from a similar cultural background.
Tau, for example, have a political system based around Plato's Republic with a ton of Confucianism throw in the mix, and a japanese mech aesthetic mixed with medieval ashigaru.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2020/07/31 17:00:58
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
Other than that I think the model is fine, and probably what the Ebon Keshig should have looked like.
..wait, those are supposed to look like daos? they look more like oversized machetes with pointier ends, to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tim the Biovore wrote: We might be seeing the consequences of the Flanderization of the White Scars here. They were always intended to be inspired by various Asian cultures instead of just Mongols In Space, and that was less about the assumption that most of East Asia is culturally homogeneous enough to be interchangeable, and more that the original philosophy of designing Space Marines was to draw from multiple modern/historical sources of influence (such as Space Wolves originally being a mix of vikings and Celts despite the lack of any real similarities between the two beyond the stereotype of hairy wildmen).
Maybe I'm giving Forge World too much benefit of the doubt, and it could be that original intent is highly flawed anyway, or that it has been too long to go back, but Qin Xa being the leader of a unit named after the Mongolian imperial guard while wielding Chinese swords and wearing Japanese-styled armour with a Tibetan-inspired mask doesn't sound like a mistake to me.
The mask looks like a komainu mempo to me, actually, which again, is japanese (it's actually a fairly common theme). The name's certanly chinese-like, but then again, as the mongols ruled China (and were absorbed culturally by them afterwards) didn't feel really off. As to the weapons... well, what I said above ^^
Actually, what would you think is kinda-sorta mongolian in that mini? I'm kind of drawing a blank, here.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/31 17:31:21
2020/07/31 17:44:23
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
How you going to make it noticeably Mongolian? A composite bow and a horse? Please no, we don't need more cyber wolves. A bit of fur trim is about as Mongolian as I'd want. I'm of the opinion that a mash up of Eastern inspired aesthetic is absolutely more desirable than "There should be more silk on that model if we're supposed to believe its inspiration is derived from the Mongols".
2020/07/31 18:14:07
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
JWBS wrote: How you going to make it noticeably Mongolian? A composite bow and a horse? Please no, we don't need more cyber wolves. A bit of fur trim is about as Mongolian as I'd want. I'm of the opinion that a mash up of Eastern inspired aesthetic is absolutely more desirable than "There should be more silk on that model if we're supposed to believe its inspiration is derived from the Mongols".
Well, instead of sode and haidate, they could have given it lamellar armor shoulders and skirt. That would have changed significantly the look, and it would have certainly looked much more "mongol"
For example, maybe something like this:
The thing is, that character doesn't look like much of a "mash of eastern inspired aesthetics". It looks like a terminator with a japanese mask, japanese shoulder armor, japanese thighs armor and kinda stupid looking swords.
He does look cool except for the swords IMHO, but it's not much of a mashup of inspirations. I would actually have liked it a lot to see him with (for example) a pair of vietnamese guoms (cavalry sabres) and maybe a torso area reminiscent of Jin dinasty chinese heavy armor:
Spoiler:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/31 20:38:17
2020/07/31 21:00:42
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
Albertorius wrote: Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Strikes me as them not wanting to make them one particular Asian cultural style, and instead mix'n'match elements that they like the look of to make their own thing... kinda like how 40K has always worked.
Albertorius wrote: Actually, what would you think is kinda-sorta mongolian in that mini? I'm kind of drawing a blank, here.
Other than depicting a character with the title Master of the Keshig, there's nothing explicitly Mongolian about the model itself. My point about the Flanderization is the expectation it has created, resulting in people seeing this White Scars miniature that is distinctly Japanese themed, armed with (what are supposed to be, at least) daos, and thinking there must have been a mistake in the design process. White Scars are not, and should not be, exclusively inspired by Mongolian aesthetics.
Maybe the real problem is that it's just not all that great a sculpt. It's very.... Modern Forge World. Clunky execution of a decent design. Should have at least given him the dragon mask he's supposed to wear.
2020/08/01 04:43:57
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
As a long time WS fan i love the model, the Paint job seems off, to much War tones with not enough to balance it out(Especially with the base) The Armor being more brownish white makes it look Iffy with the red and the blades look meh too. painted atleast
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2020/08/01 05:57:55
Subject: Re:Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
Albertorius wrote: Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Strikes me as them not wanting to make them one particular Asian cultural style, and instead mix'n'match elements that they like the look of to make their own thing... kinda like how 40K has always worked.
My problem with it is not that it's a different asian culture style (I mean, a bit... cultures develop organically and have reasons to look like they do: mishmashing stuff that doesn't belong can look very off): it's that, as is always done in most western media, they have gone for the "asia == japan" equivalency, where "asia" contains scads of different cultures that they could have drawn inspiration from.
I mean, I love me some japanese aesthetics (hell, I've been the translator of L5R for 15 years now, and I've also recently translated Tenra Bansho Zero, ffs), but it's easy mode by now, and the default in most media when they try to convene "asian". And there's so much more there.
Anyways, I think that's more than enough. It is a decent mini.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/01 06:36:42
2020/08/01 19:10:22
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
This is the final episode of The Road to Thramas, but don’t worry – we’re going out with a bang! We’re taking a peek inside The Horus Heresy – Book 9: Crusade, looking at Lion El’Jonson and Konrad Curze (the stars of the book), and giving some free downloadable rules for all of you Dark Angels fans.
Crusade We’ve already shown you some of the awesome things that are inside the new Horus Heresy campaign book, but we’ve only scratched the surface. Take a look at the full contents…
As you can see, it’s absolutely packed with Age of Darkness goodness. Along with a host of new rules and in-depth background for the Dark Angels and Night Lords Legions, it includes missions that let you recreate the Thramas campaign. It also contains new units that can be taken by any Space Marines Legion, and additions to the forces of the Solar Auxilia and Imperialis Militia and Cults.
Lion El’Jonson
The majestic Primarch of the Dark Angels Legion makes his Horus Heresy debut in this campaign book. Even though we’ve already shown off the model, we can’t resist showing you again because it’s just so good.
As we’ve come to expect from these demi-gods of war, the Lion is an absolute beast on the battlefield, able to bend the course of events to his will in order to claim victory. He even comes with a choice of weapon so that you can decide how you want to cut through Traitors.
Both options are incredible, but we can’t help but love the Wolf Blade. Not only is it brutal for carving through larger units, but it’ll also make all of your Space Wolves-playing friends even more jealous of your forces.*
Konrad Curze
Opposing the Lion is Konrad Curze, the Night Haunter. Like his brothers, the Primarch of the Night Lords Legion is an epic warrior, able to easily slice through Loyalist troops with his unique pair of lightning claws. We’ve already seen what Curze is capable of – his rules were first published in The Horus Heresy – Book 2: Massacre, but they’re included again in Crusade for easy reference. If you’re yet to face him on the battlefield, make sure that you watch out for the insidious terror tactics that he uses on his enemies – it’s not for nothing that he’s known as the King of Terrors.
Even the noble Dark Angels will struggle to stand against such a formidable force of nature. Fortunately, they’re getting some early reinforcements.
Farith Redloss and Holguin As a thank you for joining us on the Road to Thramas over the last few months, we’re going to share some exclusive rules for the Dark Angels with you. Farith Redloss is a Master of the Dreadwing and has an unparalleled knowledge of all of the weaponry in the First Legion’s arsenal. Before battle, he can choose between three different ranged weapons to wield alongside his power axe. If you plan on getting up close and personal, choose the magaron pattern atomantic pulse pistol.
Holguin meanwhile, was one of the few Terran-born warriors to claim a place in the Council of Masters. This Master of the Deathwing has access to a number of the Legion’s venerable relics, including the Viridian Blade.
Both of these Masters of the Deathwing are excellent choices for your army and can help the Lion overcome the Night Haunter in the bitter battles of the Thramas campaign.
The Horus Heresy – Book 9: Crusade and the fantastic new Lion El’Jonson model will both be available to pre-order next month. While this may be the last in the Road to Thramas series, we’ll hopefully be bringing you similar previews of upcoming Horus Heresy campaign books. In the meantime, keep an eye on the Horus Heresy Facebook page for the latest news from the 31st Millennium.
* And they’re already SUPER jealous!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/03 15:24:51
2020/08/03 16:12:34
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - Stealth Last Chance to Buy ongoing...
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/Warrior-56a041805f9b58eba4af8e89.jpg)
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
