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Abaddon303 wrote:
Lol, the conspiracy based hate for GW on Dakka is incredible. You really think they changed the board size to put the 6x4 mat makers out of business?!?

No... that's not the point that was made.

Abaddon303 wrote:
When they don't even make full size neoprene/equiv mats? You honestly think somebody in the market for a 6x4 mat suddenly decided to switch to a crappy fold up cardboard from GW because it's the right size?

No one said that either.

Abaddon303 wrote:
You honestly think if GW wanted to take on the third party mat makers that would be their approach? You don't think they'd bring out their own mats? Or make the size a little bigger so that all those old 6x4 mats are useless rather than just being able to be masked off?

It worked, didn't it? As I said, every mat maker jumped to make the new size board. GW shifted the market.

And GW did try their own mats (4x4). They were so overpriced that they didn't shift, and now they don't make them.

Abaddon303 wrote:
Most of the third party mat makers almost immediately started making the new size mats and selling them for no cheaper than the 6x4s.

Which they did because of GW's actions.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I mean, even GWs premium Realm of Battle game board is 6x4 so they've just mugged themselves off there.

And those aren't going to be around forever.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I've no doubt they made the recommended size to fit with their modular gameboards but the idea of this evil corporation spitefully taking on mat producers is ridiculous.

These are your words, no one else's.

Abaddon303 wrote:
The gameboards are the size they are presumably due to cardstock/box constraints. If they could have made them 3'x2' I would imagine they would have...

We already said that. The board size came about due to box restraints. But they didn't have to then go and make that the standard for 40k. They didn't have to define that at all. And as already stated they can make larger tiles now - they make 1x1's in plastic for Necromunda - but choose not to.

So what does this mean if not an accusation that GW wanted to sideline manufacturers of 6x4 mats?

"In the end it's a bit like the switch to 32mm bases: Everyone and their dog was making 6x4 table mats, so GW decided to change the standard size of the game using the boards (that existed out of necessity due to box constraints) and make everyone dance to their tune. And the tournament crowd and mat makers scrambled like World War Z zombies to comply."

Fair enough you do acknowledge box constraints for their board sizes as to the reason the size ended up being what it is, but you appear to be stating that the driving reason for actually changing the standard size was because of third party manufacturers.

To be fair, a whole lot of things GW does is to crack down on third parties. Like the fact you can't bring their models to tournaments, or the no model = no rules thing.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
To be fair, a whole lot of things GW does is to crack down on third parties. Like the fact you can't bring their models to tournaments, or the no model = no rules thing.

Sure, for official GW tourneys. I can't use aeronautica imperialis models at official FF (or the new sub-company for xwing and M:CP cant remember the name) x-wing tourneys either (unless that's changed IDK).

Why would they allow you to showcase other companies' models at a tournament they are hosting and funding? That's silly.

Maloghurst up for pre order next week

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/27/sunday-preview-ogres-smash-up-blood-bowl-and-a-classic-black-library-tale-comes-to-audiobook/

Really surprised he is resin after all.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Really surprised he is resin after all.

I'm not.

But going up for preorder this soon after being previewed in a Legion Dispatch? I'll take that as a sign of good things to come.

Yet another HH mini painted in Eavy Metal style. My conspiracy theorist mind thinks that since all of the new HH minis are painted in this style, it points towards HH becoming a "proper" GW specialist game sooner or later - possibly coinciding with the new plastic HH box release. No more elaborate military modellers making their kits like in the days of old.. Sad.

 the_scotsman wrote:
The new board size is based on the box footprint efficiency calculus GW does for their boxed games.

Which is based on their full sprue width.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the game and everything to do with wanting to be able to ship box sets with cardboard mats that add up to the standard board sizes.

It has something to do with the game. When the new edition launched Wade had someone on the podcast where they discussed this issue and they said part of the rationale was that it was hard to get people into the game if a special-purpose piece of furniture was a requirement to play "the right way." They went on to say that the 6x4 standard was a sort of accident of history and there was nothing intrinsic to the game that required those specific dimensions.

You're spot on about how the tile/sprue size are related, but I think the design goal of having a game that can be played properly on a kitchen table, and not require an oversize surface better suited for a shed/basement/dedicated game, makes perfect sense.

Holy gak, this fast?

Every part of Maloghurst is beautifully sculpted. There are some amazing details and features. The mini as a whole though just highlights how badly proportioned old style marines are. His top half and bottom half look like they were sculpted to different scales.

Another Horus heresy mini I will be buying even though I don't play. I'm going to convert him into an ancient for my Iron Hands -- or maybe as a mysterious black shield ancient for the deathwatch? Either way it's a great sculpt.

Ooh nice. This may be what my forge world voucher has been waiting for...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I got a a display case and some White scars Horus Heresy minis. I thought that small PRide of the Legion/Chorgorian bortherhood would look pretty cool in the display case.
I need a box of Mkiv to turn my bikes into mk4 bikers and i could not at all find them.

You couldn't find these guys?

Abaddon303 wrote:
So what does this mean if not an accusation that GW wanted to sideline manufacturers of 6x4 mats?

I very much doubt that was part of their plans. Within 1-2 weeks of the announcement that 9th would be using new table sizes all the major 6x4 mat manufacturers were taking preorders for mats sized to fit the new standards. I very much doubt anyone at GW corporate sat in a board room twirling their moustache while saying "If we change the table size to these nonstandard sizes all the mat manufacturers will go out of business because they won't be able to print mats in these other sizes"

 tauist wrote:
Yet another HH mini painted in Eavy Metal style.

How can you tell?? I just look at minis and go "oh cool paintjob". lol

It has something to do with the game. When the new edition launched Wade had someone on the podcast where they discussed this issue and they said part of the rationale was that it was hard to get people into the game if a special-purpose piece of furniture was a requirement to play "the right way." They went on to say that the 6x4 standard was a sort of accident of history and there was nothing intrinsic to the game that required those specific dimensions.

You're spot on about how the tile/sprue size are related, but I think the design goal of having a game that can be played properly on a kitchen table, and not require an oversize surface better suited for a shed/basement/dedicated game, makes perfect sense.

Yeah, thats a load of crap. Theres very few tables out there that will fit a 44"x60" table - in fact, most of the ones that fit a 44" x 60" will also fit a 4x6. As a point of fact, Ikea does not make a single table sized to fit 44x60 boards, nor do any of the major industrial furniture manufacturers that I am aware of.

 Dysartes wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I got a a display case and some White scars Horus Heresy minis. I thought that small PRide of the Legion/Chorgorian bortherhood would look pretty cool in the display case.
I need a box of Mkiv to turn my bikes into mk4 bikers and i could not at all find them.

You couldn't find these guys?

For the longest time they where labled "Temparily out of Stock"


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chaos0xomega wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
So what does this mean if not an accusation that GW wanted to sideline manufacturers of 6x4 mats?

I very much doubt that was part of their plans. Within 1-2 weeks of the announcement that 9th would be using new table sizes all the major 6x4 mat manufacturers were taking preorders for mats sized to fit the new standards. I very much doubt anyone at GW corporate sat in a board room twirling their moustache while saying "If we change the table size to these nonstandard sizes all the mat manufacturers will go out of business because they won't be able to print mats in these other sizes"

 tauist wrote:
Yet another HH mini painted in Eavy Metal style.

How can you tell?? I just look at minis and go "oh cool paintjob". lol

It has something to do with the game. When the new edition launched Wade had someone on the podcast where they discussed this issue and they said part of the rationale was that it was hard to get people into the game if a special-purpose piece of furniture was a requirement to play "the right way." They went on to say that the 6x4 standard was a sort of accident of history and there was nothing intrinsic to the game that required those specific dimensions.

You're spot on about how the tile/sprue size are related, but I think the design goal of having a game that can be played properly on a kitchen table, and not require an oversize surface better suited for a shed/basement/dedicated game, makes perfect sense.

Yeah, thats a load of crap. Theres very few tables out there that will fit a 44"x60" table - in fact, most of the ones that fit a 44" x 60" will also fit a 4x6. As a point of fact, Ikea does not make a single table sized to fit 44x60 boards, nor do any of the major industrial furniture manufacturers that I am aware of.

Purely Anecdotal, but i could not fit a 6x4 on a table in my house. I can now fit a standard 40k board.


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 tauist wrote:
Yet another HH mini painted in Eavy Metal style. My conspiracy theorist mind thinks that since all of the new HH minis are painted in this style, it points towards HH becoming a "proper" GW specialist game sooner or later - possibly coinciding with the new plastic HH box release. No more elaborate military modellers making their kits like in the days of old.. Sad.

What will prevent them from still doing that?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, thats a load of crap. Theres very few tables out there that will fit a 44"x60" table - in fact, most of the ones that fit a 44" x 60" will also fit a 4x6. As a point of fact, Ikea does not make a single table sized to fit 44x60 boards, nor do any of the major industrial furniture manufacturers that I am aware of.

Using the card board tiles instead of a cloth or mousepad mat means you can overhang a little bit if you are careful, so a table like the https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/nordviken-extendable-table-black-20368714/ ought to work. You can even extend it to have room for dice, drinks, and dead models on the ends.

Abaddon303 wrote:
Fair enough you do acknowledge box constraints for their board sizes as to the reason the size ended up being what it is, but you appear to be stating that the driving reason for actually changing the standard size was because of third party manufacturers.

This is something they have been doing quite a lot since the Chapterhouse debacle.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, thats a load of crap. Theres very few tables out there that will fit a 44"x60" table - in fact, most of the ones that fit a 44" x 60" will also fit a 4x6. As a point of fact, Ikea does not make a single table sized to fit 44x60 boards, nor do any of the major industrial furniture manufacturers that I am aware of.

Using the card board tiles instead of a cloth or mousepad mat means you can overhang a little bit if you are careful, so a table like the https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/nordviken-extendable-table-black-20368714/ ought to work. You can even extend it to have room for dice, drinks, and dead models on the ends.

If we're talking overhangs you can accomplish the same thing by sitting a 6x4 sheet of mdf on top of the table as well. When done, simply stick the 6x4 sheet under the bed or behind some shelves, etc. Used to do that in college, except we put the mdf sheet on top of my bed since I didn't have space for a table in my dorm room.

Can someone explain to me why it is a big deal if the board size goes down? ITs Minimum, you can go up if you wish.

Some people take minimum as meaning only

Racerguy180 wrote:
Some people take minimum as meaning only

And by some people, you mean most organizers of official everything and shop-owners.

Then dont play them or play higher with other like minded people

You make it sound so simple.

As explained earlier, the bulk of the community follows the trend of the organized play community, thats how it is in every tabletop wargame with an organized play program and GWs games are no different. Some individual local communities, for whatever reason, are insulated against the OP influence, but most are not so fortunate. In my own case, the majority of the shops and players in the region migrated to using only the minimum recommended table sizes because the bulk of the local commuinties consist of tournament or tournament adjacent players. Quite a few stores cut down their mats or replaced them as well. Are there still players around happy to play on a 6x4? Yes, there are a few, but for the most part the only way I'll get those games in is if I host them over at my place.

chaos0xomega wrote:
As explained earlier, the bulk of the community follows the trend of the organized play community, thats how it is in every tabletop wargame with an organized play program and GWs games are no different. Some individual local communities, for whatever reason, are insulated against the OP influence, but most are not so fortunate. In my own case, the majority of the shops and players in the region migrated to using only the minimum recommended table sizes because the bulk of the local commuinties consist of tournament or tournament adjacent players. Quite a few stores cut down their mats or replaced them as well. Are there still players around happy to play on a 6x4? Yes, there are a few, but for the most part the only way I'll get those games in is if I host them over at my place.

This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.

I understand you are describing the 40K community in your post but I honestly feel there is not a comparison in light of each communities current form. As a 30K player myself, my one fear of GW solely handling 30K would be morphing it into a clone of 40K. And GW just deciding to reduce the table size of 30K might not be a big deal, you certainly can just still continue playing on whatever board you and your group have been for years now, but a change like that may set a precedent that 30K is going to be treated like 40K, and become another competitive wargame. This will undoubtedly attract a vast new audience of competitive players to HH.

New players usually aren't a bad thing, but if the game begins getting "supported" at the rate 40K is to meet the demand of an ever expanding competitive meta, and HH veterans suddenly find themselves having a game with Timmy the Tyrant and his min/max Iron Warrior artillery army who has never been to their LGS before and proceeds to treat every game as a test for his new meta comp list....If that even potentially becomes the norm, I can see how people who truly love this game and it's setting might be resistant to changes that mirror that of 40K.


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And im not coming at you chaos, just playing off your statement.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community.

Because the 30k community and the 40k community aren't even remotely similar from a support and patronage perspective.

You are correct that, in their current form, the 30k community doesn't do this. What some of us fear however is that if GW suddenly makes a "big deal" of 30k (so to speak), rather than it being a half-forgotten set of rules that scarcely gets a release these days, that it will gain some of the more recent trappings of their bigger games, one example being those undersized boards. Then, if 30k really becomes a "big deal" among the players, then the standardisation that we see in 40k from people jumping to dance to GW's tune will start to permeate the 30k player base as well.

I fail to see how it becoming bigger makes the game worse.
The Historical aspect of the game can still be there. Nothing will prevent you from doing personal army projects or playing on a bigger board. IF you dont want to, play with other like minded people or ask your opponent.

That's not really what I said.

Abaddon303 wrote:
Um, melee?

If you think　smaller board helps melee　think again. Same distance to cover anyway. Does make harder to hide from shooting though. In　aos　side lumineth, particularly shooting ones, are already drooling at the power up their shooting gets with　smaller boards.