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My response was to the question what's the point in units having movement stats if they can shoot anything on the board

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I got a a display case and some White scars Horus Heresy minis. I thought that small PRide of the Legion/Chorgorian bortherhood would look pretty cool in the display case.
I need a box of Mkiv to turn my bikes into mk4 bikers and i could not at all find them.

You couldn't find these guys?

For the longest time they where labled "Temparily out of Stock"

Well, while they're in stock, I hope you get the chance to pick up a box and finish your bikers

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.

I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.

 Arbitrator wrote:

I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.

I mean, that's a combo of two of the most overpowered lists in 30k. Both have been dialed back since, but they were both in "what were the designers even thinking" category when they were released. I look at sekhmet and still think the same thing: very under-costed / overpowered.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.

I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.

One used to see a lot of Phosphex Quad Mortars at those "narrative experience" events too, lol.

 gorgon wrote:
One used to see a lot of Phosphex Quad Mortars at those "narrative experience" events too, lol.

Unsurprisingly. They're very clearly forging a narrative, there.

The narrative being "and then the other side was slaughtered to the single last man".

 gorgon wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.

I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.

One used to see a lot of Phosphex Quad Mortars at those "narrative experience" events too, lol.

Many years ago when our club ran its first 30k event we asked the community what restrictions to put in place in the event pack - the feedback was that 30k was perfect and didn't need any restrictions. One player then used a Leviathan Detachment with only titans and we got moaned at (and Leviathan was banned from all future events).

Sometimes i wonder why people use "narrative" things mostly as an excuse to spam the most broken things.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Sometimes i wonder why people use "narrative" things mostly as an excuse to spam the most broken things.

OK so like the fluff for my army is like General Glorioso really, really likes to win so he like studies how every unit on the battlefield performs and when he finds something awesome he uses it.

What's your fluff?

MESBG?

Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game.

Mental note - add that to the list to add to the glossary.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.

I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.

Was that the one where someone used both Primarch and Daemon Prince Magnus the Red in the same force?
Both the concept of thinking of doing that, and the reactions to it (I'm sure you can imagine) were absolutely hilarious.

Generally though think 30k players are almost like historical gamers in their efforts to make their forces 'accurate'. Right down to helmet stripes, company listings, forces using the right equipment etc. So crap like the scenario above would be extremely rare from my experience.

beast_gts wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.

I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.

One used to see a lot of Phosphex Quad Mortars at those "narrative experience" events too, lol.

Many years ago when our club ran its first 30k event we asked the community what restrictions to put in place in the event pack - the feedback was that 30k was perfect and didn't need any restrictions. One player then used a Leviathan Detachment with only titans and we got moaned at (and Leviathan was banned from all future events).

Fox got in the henhouse!

Clearly must have been an imposter and a member of the great unwashed 40K community. Everyone knows that real 30K players only field masses of Tacticals.

Well 3k+ game with 4 models(cheapest titan being warhound at 750) you will struggle with objectives. I have used warhound and what struct was just how little it killed for points.

Titans have always been horrifyingly overpriced for what they did, or depending on how you looked at it, terribly underwhelming for what they costed

tneva82 wrote:
Well 3k+ game with 4 models(cheapest titan being warhound at 750) you will struggle with objectives. I have used warhound and what struct was just how little it killed for points.

30k, 40k, even apocalypse Titans are badly over costed compared to the damage they can put out. The only reason a warhound was bumped to 2000 points in 40k is so it can't be used in normal games, which it could back when it was 750 points.

Yea. Which is what makes that ban weird. Oh gee opponent brought couple warhound. Now you auto win.

Though in 40k it was 1500 before it got bumbed to 2000.

And core issue is that the model is too big for scale. Eventually unit becomes too big for the scale making balancing impossible. If warhound would be at 750 it would force knights to go lot cheaper as they would then be ridiculously priced compared to warhound.This means tanks need to go down. Which means infantry means go down. Which means you hit into bottom. Impossible to scale it down. Either you lose on objectives or you are ridiculously underpriced for your durability/killyness to keep up with cheaper units at which point you invalidate medium-higher level point units.

(this is why I'm not thrilled at the idea of imperator titan in AT)

Yes I think aside from the rules, I just find the concept of 28mm Titans in 30k or 40k (outside of 12ft table mega battles) just.. wrong.

It's one thing having them as display or painting projects, but if you want to play as them in a game either Adeptus Titanicus or any of the many versions of Epic are a much better choice.

That's a problem for Knights and other super-heavy/very-big models too, that they're just boring bricks of points rather than units that behave in an interesting way. They're just so big they can't be ignored, like a singularity of suck on a gaming table.

Lovely models for collecting, building, painting, and displaying though.

 Nurglitch wrote:
That's a problem for Knights and other super-heavy/very-big models too, that they're just boring bricks of points rather than units that behave in an interesting way. They're just so big they can't be ignored, like a singularity of suck on a gaming table.

Lovely models for collecting, building, painting, and displaying though.

Could argue the same for aircraft, primarchs, vehicles bigger than a land raider, monsters over 3 inches tall with wings. Everyone is going to draw the line at a different place.

The titan problem is less to do with their size and more that the are point costed not to be balanced based on standards used for other units, but just a ton of points that start at "too many to take one in a normal to large game" and go up by roughly "eh this one is about 50% bigger, so make it cost twice as much" and then "this one is basically this titan standing o top of this one, so make it cost about the same as the two of them combined." And instead of giving the different weapons costs, they just let you slap on whatever guns you want in any combination for the exact same points, except warlord carapace which must be taken in pairs since that is how they are sold.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
That's a problem for Knights and other super-heavy/very-big models too, that they're just boring bricks of points rather than units that behave in an interesting way. They're just so big they can't be ignored, like a singularity of suck on a gaming table.

Lovely models for collecting, building, painting, and displaying though.

Could argue the same for aircraft, primarchs, vehicles bigger than a land raider, monsters over 3 inches tall with wings. Everyone is going to draw the line at a different place.

The titan problem is less to do with their size and more that the are point costed not to be balanced based on standards used for other units, but just a ton of points that start at "too many to take one in a normal to large game" and go up by roughly "eh this one is about 50% bigger, so make it cost twice as much" and then "this one is basically this titan standing o top of this one, so make it cost about the same as the two of them combined." And instead of giving the different weapons costs, they just let you slap on whatever guns you want in any combination for the exact same points, except warlord carapace which must be taken in pairs since that is how they are sold.

Except you cannot balance out those titans. They simply break game too much.

Warhound. If it's pointed according to killingness/durability you auto lose due to objectives.

If you make it cheap enough you can take enough other stuff to not auto lose on objectives it's so overkilly/durable for points that when faced with more elite army it simply runs over them by being so underpriced for durability.

It's too big for one model that you can't point it so that it's fair both against cheap guys AND elite guys.

Take 40k warlord titan. It could cost 2000 pts and you would auto lose most games. Instantly. Opponent doesn't even have to bother dealing with it. It's now costed at 6k. However if you were to bring him against knight army...then you auto win as it will delete knights too efficiently.

If you make it cheaper than 2k so that you can have some support to hold objectives...it's hardly going to be fair points based on killyness/durability and this basically would invalidate knight armies, imperial guard baneblade companies etc. Might just as well not show up.

You break the scale of game too much, it's going to be impossible to balance out. Make up big enough titan and adeptus titanicus rules break and you would need new ruleset designed around THAT scale.

Titans really belong in an Epic scale game, I have many fond memories of 2nd ed Epic games mixing titans, vehicles and infantry.

For 28mm games though - yeah I mostly think of titans as display pieces or maybe battlefield decoration. It doesn't really make sense to have rules for them on that scale, they live on a different detail level.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Sometimes i wonder why people use "narrative" things mostly as an excuse to spam the most broken things.

When I played HH a few years ago, the draw for me was theming my army. I played Ultramarines, and I wanted a good mix of Terminators, Legionnaires (Basic Bolter Bros) and Dreadnoughts. So that's the army I built, and it looked great. Unfortunately, even though I was told at every turn how HH is all about the narrative, all about the stories and fun, every opponent I went to the table against had massively optimized lists, and usually shredded me to pieces in a turn or two. Every. Single. One. Eventually, I realized a lot of that was just talk and not really representative of the what the community was about and I sold my army and left.

I have heard talk that the game is coming back to plastic soon. If so, I might consider going in on another army and trying to find more story driven gamers to play with. But, I dunno. I don't have high hopes...

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

Except you cannot balance out those titans. They simply break game too much.

Warhound. If it's pointed according to killingness/durability you auto lose due to objectives.

If you make it cheap enough you can take enough other stuff to not auto lose on objectives it's so overkilly/durable for points that when faced with more elite army it simply runs over them by being so underpriced for durability.

It's too big for one model that you can't point it so that it's fair both against cheap guys AND elite guys.

Take 40k warlord titan. It could cost 2000 pts and you would auto lose most games. Instantly. Opponent doesn't even have to bother dealing with it. It's now costed at 6k. However if you were to bring him against knight army...then you auto win as it will delete knights too efficiently.

If you make it cheaper than 2k so that you can have some support to hold objectives...it's hardly going to be fair points based on killyness/durability and this basically would invalidate knight armies, imperial guard baneblade companies etc. Might just as well not show up.

You break the scale of game too much, it's going to be impossible to balance out. Make up big enough titan and adeptus titanicus rules break and you would need new ruleset designed around THAT scale.

I think, when it comes to Titans, you have to design & price them to suitable levels of damage and resilience, and damn the (matched play) objectives.

Pretty much anyone invested enough in 40k to have shelled out on one of these behemoths is going to be able to realise that they're not suited to matched play, but still obviously have a place in Open and/or non-Crusade narrative games.

Pricing a Warlord at 6k is still silly, though.

When I started heresy, ideas of 20 tactical marines + medic sounded cool. Then you realize they ain't that cheap and basically don't do anything. 20 allied guardsmen for 40pts more or less does the same thing. Ah, but they are not as durable as marines...Well, everything in game is designed to wipe out marines quite effective, pie plates are quite common too...so yeah, suddenly you realize, you want tanks, lots of AV, and if you have marines, have em in 10 man squads in rhinos(veterans are for points way better than tacticals which kinda end up as dead weight).

Stick 10 terminators with HQ in spartan most of the time too.

It's a fascinating problem in asymmetrical game design.

When looking at 30k conversation online I have seen a Big disconnect between what most people Tell you the Spirit of the Game and setting and how most people actually, at least, Talk how they play.

Theres a ton of competitiveness and list min/maxing I was not expecting with how I has always tought the 30k community was.

My idea of playing was also Big blobs of marines fighting each other with some support in trenches and terrain and what I found was deathstars upon deathstars and artillery and vehicle spam.

Like many other games, you've got to find a like-minded good gaming group to play with as well.

And yeah, that's oftentimes way easier said then done...

Maloghurst is up - £30

There is just no way on God's green earth that that model is going to arrive looking that good with FW's legendary QA.