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Marshal Loss wrote: So let me get this straight - the Deimos Rhino is cheaper than a regular Rhino in the UK and US, but in Australia we pay $23 more for a Deimos than a regular Rhino (a bit over 40% more)? And it's direct only so we can't get a FLGS discount? feth off GW. That's me out. Utterly absurd
there is no regular Rhino any more but just the Razorback box that of course includes the Rhino
And some countries were excluded on the last regular price increase for the existing items, but this does not mean that upcoming boxes are excluded from this as well
so you happen to be in the exiting spot that the Razorback is "cheaper" than the Rhino because the later got the regular price increase while the other did not
so thank GW for not increasing the price back than, otherwise the Razorback would be more expensive than the Rhino for you too (/s)
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So how many points is contained within the big box? And how many points do people normally play in HH?
Basically trying to get an idea of how much someone would end up buying to get a "standard" army.
This would be good to know. I'd wager the new book comes with the 3 points brackets like aos/40k though.
the box looks to be around 1500 points that you can stretch to 2000+ depending on upgrades and weapons (if you buy the upgrade sets)
Standard game size is 2500/3000 points but this depends on the local community and if they play 1vs1 or not (I have seen multi player games more often than 1vs1 and those with 4-6k, also to give new players an easier start so they don't need to bring a full 3k army to play)
so 1,5-2 boxes +upgrade sets would give you a "standard" sized army
Okay, thanks, so even in plastic and with the boxed set as a starting point it's still a pretty expensive game to get into.
Marshal Loss wrote: So let me get this straight - the Deimos Rhino is cheaper than a regular Rhino in the UK and US, but in Australia we pay $23 more for a Deimos than a regular Rhino (a bit over 40% more)? And it's direct only so we can't get a FLGS discount? feth off GW. That's me out. Utterly absurd
To be fair (as fair as you can be to the idiocy that is GW pricing) the regular Rhino is weirdly cheap in Australia, it's $50USD which would translate to ~$70AUD in regular real world exchange rates (not GW's senseless exchange rate) but it actually only costs $55AUD. So I wasn't expecting the Deimos to be less than the regular Rhino in Oz.
$78 dollars as a direct only item is still way to much, but it was never going to be less than a regular Rhino either.
The direct only is a killer, because that eliminates the 20% discount that is easy to get on everything else.
Out of curiosity I checked a few higher cost kits in Australia and it's even more crazy than I imagined. Not just expensive, but wildly inconsistent and unpredictable.
Okay, thanks, so even in plastic and with the boxed set as a starting point it's still a pretty expensive game to get into.
yeah, don't expect to get very far with the usual buy 1 starter box and split with a friend
more like both buy 1 box and split the 3rd
PS: but if you start fresh into 40k it is not much cheaper either and the 3rd party market offers more for 30k is there is much more not-Marine stuff out there that fits older armour schemes
as written above, Australia was not part of the last regular price increase, but now ones are sold with the new price
so old boxes have a different "conversion" from GBP to AUD than the new boxes (and some very old kits that did not saw a price hick more than once are really "cheap" compared, happend with € also in the past, but GW tries to avoid it)
for example, Sisters Battle Sanctum is £75/100€, Gorkanaut £80/105€
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/31 08:33:49
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
Marshal Loss wrote: So let me get this straight - the Deimos Rhino is cheaper than a regular Rhino in the UK and US, but in Australia we pay $23 more for a Deimos than a regular Rhino (a bit over 40% more)? And it's direct only so we can't get a FLGS discount? feth off GW. That's me out. Utterly absurd
To be fair (as fair as you can be to the idiocy that is GW pricing) the regular Rhino is weirdly cheap in Australia, it's $50USD which would translate to ~$70AUD in regular real world exchange rates (not GW's senseless exchange rate) but it actually only costs $55AUD. So I wasn't expecting the Deimos to be less than the regular Rhino in Oz.
$78 dollars as a direct only item is still way to much, but it was never going to be less than a regular Rhino either.
The direct only is a killer, because that eliminates the 20% discount that is easy to get on everything else.
That's a reasonable explanation as to why it wouldn't be cheaper than regular Rhinos here, but as you say, direct only is a killer. If core parts of the range like those weapon packs and Rhinos are going to be direct only going forward, that's a bridge too far for me unfortunately
The pricing was always going to be through the roof, but that's more a case of that just being GW's thing for around the past 12 years (there was a really nice decade around 2000-2010 where there were both good quality plastic minis and the pricing was reasonable, 10-20 minis for £10-£12 used to be standard with even deeper discounts in battleforces, rules were great too).
Nowadays, it's either you're putting in the serious coin for something like HH (where the ruleset at least seems to be a lot better than the very bloated 40k), or you can go for one of the more affordable alternatives like Firefight from Mantic which has free rules and army lists a month after release and a starter set equally as packed as HH for under half the price.
Either way, the gaming market is quite mature and there's options for everyone no matter their budget. If it's not working out then look at the wider wargaming world and see what else is out there.
I only play Necromunda and Blood Bowl from GW, to buy big armies I'd have to take house deposit-tier cash oout of savings (£500+) and that's not justifiable as an adult with other priorities/ expenses no matter how much I like it in theory. The big £250+ starter boxes that are being released recently are so far off my radar as a buyer it's better if I don't even look at them.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/31 09:09:11
I've seen multiple people mention that the upcoming weapon packs are only intended for Mk6s, has there been any official statement on this either way? They haven't showed off sprue pictures yet so I suppose there's some room for ambiguity there.
The guns carried bolter-style at the hip I could otherwise see fitting 4s and 3s relatively easily, except those kits came with the left hand separate from the boltguns unlike the new 6s. Neither pattern has a simple straight seam at the wrist either (unlike the mk7) so a hand-swap to the moulded-on parts might be a bit annoying.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I've seen multiple people mention that the upcoming weapon packs are only intended for Mk6s, has there been any official statement on this either way? They haven't showed off sprue pictures yet so I suppose there's some room for ambiguity there.
The guns carried bolter-style at the hip I could otherwise see fitting 4s and 3s relatively easily, except those kits came with the left hand separate from the boltguns unlike the new 6s. Neither pattern has a simple straight seam at the wrist either (unlike the mk7) so a hand-swap to the moulded-on parts might be a bit annoying.
Yes, in the reveal stream they confirmed the weapons packs were designed for MkVI.
However, they said the special weapons should fit other plastic armour mks, with little to no work.
The heavy weapons will fit, but require more conversion work - this is probably mainly due to the differences in shoulder pads between mks.
OK, that's good to know. I expect the shoulder-fired heavies will come with separate Mk6 arms that might look a bit too conspicuous on Mk3s especially, but we'll see.
Okay, thanks, so even in plastic and with the boxed set as a starting point it's still a pretty expensive game to get into.
yeah, don't expect to get very far with the usual buy 1 starter box and split with a friend
more like both buy 1 box and split the 3rd
PS: but if you start fresh into 40k it is not much cheaper either and the 3rd party market offers more for 30k is there is much more not-Marine stuff out there that fits older armour schemes
Yeah, I wasn't thinking of splitting the box, but was hoping that 1 box to myself would give most of what was needed for a game, with any additional purchases just adding flavour and variety.
But it sounds like there'd be quite a bit more to buy to get it up to a typical game level, so probably not much change out of $1000AUD.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/31 10:22:59
From book leaks iirc the game doesn't split into defined points levels the way 40k does (combat patrol/strike force/etc), which theoretically means you can play whatever points value you want (to be fair, technically also true for 40k even though they really want you to play at specific fixed points values), but one points table I saw from the book whuch was detailing things like FOC limits and LoW caps, etc. didn't start until 2000pts, which implies that to be the minimum points level for gameplay.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Okay, thanks, so even in plastic and with the boxed set as a starting point it's still a pretty expensive game to get into.
yeah, don't expect to get very far with the usual buy 1 starter box and split with a friend
more like both buy 1 box and split the 3rd
PS: but if you start fresh into 40k it is not much cheaper either and the 3rd party market offers more for 30k is there is much more not-Marine stuff out there that fits older armour schemes
Yeah, I wasn't thinking of splitting the box, but was hoping that 1 box to myself would give most of what was needed for a game, with any additional purchases just adding flavour and variety.
But it sounds like there'd be quite a bit more to buy to get it up to a typical game level, so probably not much change out of $1000AUD.
I don't see how this isn't quite a bit cheaper than a 40k starter setup.
JWBS wrote: I don't see how this isn't quite a bit cheaper than a 40k starter setup.
I don't think Skink is saying it isn't. Just that you need more to bring it to a typically playable level, i.e 3k point being heresy norm, vs 1.5-2k being 40k norm.
I wonder if there will be a SC / CP system for this. The rumours for the smaller starter sets don't seem to have panned out so far but I suppose there's still time, iirc much of that particular slate of rumours has turned out to be correct.
JWBS wrote: I wonder if there will be a SC / CP system for this. The rumours for the smaller starter sets don't seem to have panned out so far but I suppose there's still time, iirc much of that particular slate of rumours has turned out to be correct.
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JWBS wrote: I wonder if there will be a SC / CP system for this. The rumours for the smaller starter sets don't seem to have panned out so far but I suppose there's still time, iirc much of that particular slate of rumours has turned out to be correct.
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JWBS wrote: I don't see how this isn't quite a bit cheaper than a 40k starter setup.
I don't think Skink is saying it isn't. Just that you need more to bring it to a typically playable level, i.e 3k point being heresy norm, vs 1.5-2k being 40k norm.
Is there a reason 3k is the norm? Are the points for a marine comparable to the points for one in 40k for example? Knowing how GW designs stuff and their general pointing structure from 7th, 3k feels like a "community likes to field al of the toys so play bigger than expected" army than one by rules intent.
Not entirely sure 3k is the norm. I thought a lot of people played 2500.
But in any case, I think the uplift on say 2k points (or 1850, 1500, whatever) is that people want to play with Primarchs. And running around with 400-500 etc point models in such games is a bit warped. (Yes, looking at you Daemon Primarchs in a regular 40k game.)
JWBS wrote: I don't see how this isn't quite a bit cheaper than a 40k starter setup.
I don't think Skink is saying it isn't. Just that you need more to bring it to a typically playable level, i.e 3k point being heresy norm, vs 1.5-2k being 40k norm.
Is there a reason 3k is the norm? Are the points for a marine comparable to the points for one in 40k for example? Knowing how GW designs stuff and their general pointing structure from 7th, 3k feels like a "community likes to field al of the toys so play bigger than expected" army than one by rules intent.
I don't play wargames but looking at the HH box, which is apparently 2k points, I can only imagine that moving 6k points around a table (triple what's in the box), under the HH rules (less streamlined than 40k??) is going to be a not insignificant undertaking in terms of time. 3kvs3k must take several hours.
About 2 hours if both players understand the game.
And yes the reason you see a lot of 2.5-3k games is that 2.5k+ is where LoW and Primarchs come into play. The game is perfectly serviceable at smaller point levels, just maybe not 500.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/31 13:35:48
JWBS wrote: I wonder if there will be a SC / CP system for this. The rumours for the smaller starter sets don't seem to have panned out so far but I suppose there's still time, iirc much of that particular slate of rumours has turned out to be correct.
Not exactly, the initial wave of rumors about this mostly turned out to be wrong/inconclusive thus far (not only are there no smaller starter sets, but the big box is *not* named anything to do with "Heta-Gladius" as the rumors suggested). That slate of rumors more recently was getting reposted alongside a new wave of rumors which included more details about individual releases - the new wave is what has turned out to be mostly true, but I don't know that they have anything to do with the old wave (not clear that they come from the same source, etc.).
Is there a reason 3k is the norm? Are the points for a marine comparable to the points for one in 40k for example? Knowing how GW designs stuff and their general pointing structure from 7th, 3k feels like a "community likes to field al of the toys so play bigger than expected" army than one by rules intent.
Yes, its because forces in the 30k setting are organized differently and in order to reflect that on the tabletop you need more points to accommodate everything. Although 30k marines are individually cheaper points wise than 40k marines, the basic 30k troops unit is a brick of 10-20 marines rather than a brick of 5-10, and when you're fielding those 10-20 man bricks you are mostly only getting bolters, things like plasma guns and heavy bolters require their own dedicated units (or really expensive veteran tactical squads that can get special/heavy weapons). You can easily drop 1000 pts just filling out your basic compulsory requirements before you even start adding special/heavy weapons or get to field terminators, dreadnoughts, vehicles, or anything else. Then there are certain units, things like Spartans (which are a heavy support choice in 30k) or Leviathan Dreads which come in at 400-500 points each, which is a pretty big chunk of your points budget at 2k points, let alone a Primarch which is another 400-500+ points easy (some of which cannot legally be fielded in armies of 2k points). Then there are all the lords of war like Legion Fellblades which can't be legally fielded below 2500+ points, etc. And then there are a number of Rites of War which you would be hard pressed to meet the requirements of at anything below 2500pts, etc. 3k basically became the norm because thats what the listbuilding restrictions and unit designs basically required in order for players to even be able to use half of the units and rules printed for the game, otherwise all the cool gak that makes HH what it is gets thrown out the window and you're basically playing marines-only 40k instead.
Tyel wrote: Not entirely sure 3k is the norm. I thought a lot of people played 2500.
But in any case, I think the uplift on say 2k points (or 1850, 1500, whatever) is that people want to play with Primarchs. And running around with 400-500 etc point models in such games is a bit warped. (Yes, looking at you Daemon Primarchs in a regular 40k game.)
3k is the norm, 2.5k was the old standard when most of the factions didn't have rules for their own primarchs or special units, rites of war, etc. but as more people got toys more people wanted to use them.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
The minimum for a CAD in 30k is an HQ and 2 Troops, and it's nowhere near 1k points to fill that out.
There are also very few ROW that don't operate well under 2.5k and with the changes made with 2.0 that will likely be even more the case.
JWBS wrote: I don't play wargames but looking at the HH box, which is apparently 2k points, I can only imagine that moving 6k points around a table (triple what's in the box), under the HH rules (less streamlined than 40k??) is going to be a not insignificant undertaking in terms of time. 3kvs3k must take several hours.
40k also takes several hours....
it is hard to say that 40k is more streamlined, less dense, simple core rules but also detailed on a per model level
30k has more core rules and is more detailed, but also less bloat overall, and plays faster
but 30k is also more a gentleman's game, and people like it if a game takes 4-5 hours (kind of similar to some historical games like Black Powder, were you play your 3vs3 for the whole day and people see this as an advantage)
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kodos wrote: but 30k is also more a gentleman's game, and people like it if a game takes 4-5 hours (kind of similar to some historical games like Black Powder, were you play your 3vs3 for the whole day and people see this as an advantage)
but no one here is carrying his stuff to an HH meetup and than complains that the game is taking too long
they rather complain if it is over in 2 hours because it was not worth driving around for such a small game
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
kodos wrote: but 30k is also more a gentleman's game, and people like it if a game takes 4-5 hours (kind of similar to some historical games like Black Powder, were you play your 3vs3 for the whole day and people see this as an advantage)
I can guarantee it is not.
I will admit I like quicker games, so maybe I'm not going to like HH. If I have a whole afternoon to play games, I'd rather play 2 short games than 1 game that takes the entire afternoon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/31 15:09:09
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