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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Whereas some of us don't think that the two things are mutually exclusive. Moreover, we don't think it should be reflected in the increasingly-restrictive rules.

Yeah, and it comes off as being mad that a physical product that has to fit into a pre-defined box and come in under a specific weight with the intent of supporting a specific product can't also support a bunch of different products that were made years earlier under different standards and design language.

At this point it's probably easier to get some 3rd party .stl weapons than it is to yell at GW for not filling your specific modelling requirements. Like if they aren't going to sell you the thing you want to make your specific ideas possible then give your money to someone who does.

Or is this supposed to be the bit where I scream about 3d printing being evil?

EDIT: As for the rules for 40k, that's hardly relevant to a HH thread, but I'll bite: GW was blasted FOR YEARS for "greedy practices" of not giving enough weapons in a kit for every model to have whatever the current meta loadout was. Despite the points about box size and weight limits I've mentioned. Now that they're addressing that the new complaint is that we can't min-max our squads? Is that really the hill we need to die on now?

And yeah, I didn't like how they did it for Sword Brethren because it made the datasheet too clunky. Chosen/Chaos Terminators definitely have the better solution that streamlines gameplay, allows players to be creative, but also doesn't put people into needing to go through the hassle of needing 5 sets of lighting claws on their Vanguard Veterans because that's the current meta pick for the quarter.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Yeah, and it comes off as being mad that a physical product that has to fit into a pre-defined box and come in under a specific weight with the intent of supporting a specific product can't also support a bunch of different products that were made years earlier under different standards and design language.

Yeah, 'cause that's what I was getting at...

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or is this supposed to be the bit where I scream about 3d printing being evil?

You can scream about whatever you want.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW was blasted FOR YEARS for "greedy practices" of not giving enough weapons in a kit for every model to have whatever the current meta loadout was. Despite the points about box size and weight limits I've mentioned. Now that they're addressing that the new complaint is that we can't min-max our squads? Is that really the hill we need to die on now?

That was happening before it had anything to do with what we call the 'meta' today. As for dying on hills, there's a whole thread about kit restrictions and how it relates to the rules. It's pretty universally against such practices. People don't like the absurd unit entries that we get for Sword Brethren, Skitarii, Primaris Captains, Plague Terminators, Wyches, and so on. It's so unnecessary. And "They can't because of kit weight!" might be the weakest new excuse I've seen in a while. The Havoc Sprue absolutely needed a bunch of meele/special weapons and a tactical rock for the Champion, but not a second Chaincannon.

This is a problem of their own creation. Making excuses about box size and weight limits is asinine. This was an issue before 'current meta' became the 'current meta', and it will be afterwards.

Does anyone else see the Rule of Cool of these 30K guys, Dread's, or vehicles popping up out of the Warp, appearing as a goal for a battle, or finding them in a campaign game as a reinforcements goal, or a prize for use in current armies?


Until I saw the box this weekend, I was only interested in about two boxes of beakies as some add-ons to a reinvention of the 2d edition boxed forces I'm interested in putting together.

Now, I'm inclined to getting a batch of these guys, adding in some 40K appurtenances and making a couple of Fallen Squads.

There is some good looking stuff here, regardless of having to sell GW your soul to get it.

I mean, Rule of Cool is all over these things.

I know Volkite weapons mightn't be the best for anti-Marine work compared to other weapons, but I still want to build squads of 'em or put 'em on sponsons for no other reason than they look awesome.

Chain cannon is a good example of how little of the original context we have, and how negative nancies effectively have to just make stuff up in their heads to fit a pre-existing "GW are poppy heads" prejudice.

It's been stated pretty clearly before now how the models and kits are designed mostly independently of the rules. So what you have is a designer(/s) putting together a sprue of components with at least a vague brief. For Havocs? They're an established unit that has a few solid expectations; it should at least match the existing devastation sprue, it should include a wide variety of existing known quantities, like heavy bolters,, lascannons, etc.

So that's what they do. Then they notice that, having covered most of the bases, if they shift some components around here and there, they can fit one more heavy weapon in, and decide to go for a massive chain cannon.

The codex writers get their hands on the nee models and immediately set about incorporating this unique new weapon into the squad. The rules end up being pretty nifty because, well, you only get one of them, right?

WRONG

WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IS SOME PENNY PINCHER AT HEAD OFFICE IS LIKE "HEH HEH HEH HEH HEHHHH, I WANT YOU TO PUT A COOL OVERPOWERED WEAPON ON THE SPRUE SO THE PLEBS HAVE TO BUY FOUR BOXES!!!!"

AND THE GHOST OF BRYAN ANSELL CRIES A GHOSTLY TEAR INTO AN OCEAN OF HAUNTED SCREAMS ETC

It could be either, it could even be a mixture of both. But surely it isn't worth getting worked up over?

 ekwatts wrote:
But surely it isn't worth getting worked up over?

You must be new here. <in Gerard Butler voice> THIS...IS...DAKKA!!!

JWBS wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
The fact they they deliberately designed these weapons to only fit MK6, or require extensive cutting is INDEFENSIBLE. If you think this is not the intent you're lying to yourself. Every marine kit since 2013 has followed the same weapon - arm layout and it suddenly changes here? Alongside kits that follow this tried and true method. Yeah that makes a ton of sense.

This is a gak tier marketing tactic. Yup you can cut it, but having to cut and greenstuff a gap that shouldn't even be there in the first place is so fething stupid. They obviously just want you to buy mk6 and not use that nice juicy bits box of special weapons you have stocked up. And people with limited hobby capabilities will not even bother. This also means any future infantry will have the same design.

You can paste mkiii arms onto mkiv / primaris bodies? Just eyeing the various kits, I'd bet money you can't.

I knew in the back of my head that someone would read my statement of "every marine kit since 2013" and bring up fething primaris marines. I just didn't think it would happen immediately lmao. Lets clear this up, FIRST-BORN MARINE KITS.

I've seen people gluing first born marines on primaris before, they look a little awkward but it's been done

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It is a false claim as some of the Primaris kits already have split hands, even split fingers between the hands e.g. Reivers. Sure we’ve had similar approaches but the “fits this kit only” thing is in no way new.

This is completely missing the point and obfuscating the issue for the sake of god knows what. With the way 40k has been designed after 7th edition, it doesn't matter that primaris can't interchange arms/weapons, because each units available load out is limited to what comes on its respective sprues.

MK3, MK4 and MK6 are all interchangeable in the army list when it comes to support squads and heavy support squads. They all use the same equipment and fulfill comparable roles in the list. FW's previous approach reflected this. It would thus be logical for them to continue this way unless the new non-inclusive design approach satisfied some much bigger issue that supplanted interchangeability.

I challenge you to come up with a reasonable reason to abandon an existing inclusive design logic that would make these new weapon sprues backwards compatible. Do they look massively improved? Maybe a little, but not to the degree that makes it worth giving up modularity.

But that goes against the GW Hobby. Build as per instructions. Mixing kits? Heresy!

People wanted dynamic poses, gw provided. Maybe not in shape people wanted. You need to be careful with what you wish from gw

 stahly wrote:
I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really

Here is my review: https://taleofpainters.com/2022/06/review-legiones-astartes-special-heavy-weapon-upgrade-set/

How annyoing, I wish GW would just stick to the 3rd edition method of putting handles on weapons, and hands on arms (if that makes sense). Makes swapping among kits easier and allows us to put weapons on someone's back or on a base or whatever. I don't see the advantage of molding on hands to guns.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
How annyoing, I wish GW would just stick to the 3rd edition method of putting handles on weapons, and hands on arms (if that makes sense). Makes swapping among kits easier and allows us to put weapons on someone's back or on a base or whatever. I don't see the advantage of molding on hands to guns.

The fingers look better.

That's about it. Whether that's enough of a positive to counter the negatives, well, that's up to personal preferences.

For me? Not so much.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean, Rule of Cool is all over these things.

I know Volkite weapons mightn't be the best for anti-Marine work compared to other weapons, but I still want to build squads of 'em or put 'em on sponsons for no other reason than they look awesome.

But what sound do you make when rolling the dice?

I think I’d prefer a hearty Fzzzchoom

Other noises are available.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean, Rule of Cool is all over these things.

I know Volkite weapons mightn't be the best for anti-Marine work compared to other weapons, but I still want to build squads of 'em or put 'em on sponsons for no other reason than they look awesome.

But what sound do you make when rolling the dice?

When in doubt...
Pew Pew

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean, Rule of Cool is all over these things.

I know Volkite weapons mightn't be the best for anti-Marine work compared to other weapons, but I still want to build squads of 'em or put 'em on sponsons for no other reason than they look awesome.

Volkite are (were?) some of the better weapons when dealing with Marines. The high strength, sheer number of shots and the deflagrate rule really help. Culverins will devastate marines and even terminators will struggle through 40 Culverin shots from a 10 man heavy support squad.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Yeah, and it comes off as being mad that a physical product that has to fit into a pre-defined box and come in under a specific weight with the intent of supporting a specific product can't also support a bunch of different products that were made years earlier under different standards and design language.

Yeah, 'cause that's what I was getting at...

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or is this supposed to be the bit where I scream about 3d printing being evil?

You can scream about whatever you want.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW was blasted FOR YEARS for "greedy practices" of not giving enough weapons in a kit for every model to have whatever the current meta loadout was. Despite the points about box size and weight limits I've mentioned. Now that they're addressing that the new complaint is that we can't min-max our squads? Is that really the hill we need to die on now?

That was happening before it had anything to do with what we call the 'meta' today. As for dying on hills, there's a whole thread about kit restrictions and how it relates to the rules. It's pretty universally against such practices. People don't like the absurd unit entries that we get for Sword Brethren, Skitarii, Primaris Captains, Plague Terminators, Wyches, and so on. It's so unnecessary. And "They can't because of kit weight!" might be the weakest new excuse I've seen in a while. The Havoc Sprue absolutely needed a bunch of meele/special weapons and a tactical rock for the Champion, but not a second Chaincannon.

This is a problem of their own creation. Making excuses about box size and weight limits is asinine. This was an issue before 'current meta' became the 'current meta', and it will be afterwards.

I mean you don't have to like for it to be a thing. The considerations and limitations in designing models, feed into how they design rules. Just because the community insists the game should play like x doesn't mean it's what they intended. If anything it seems GW is taking a heavier handed approach to bring the game they intend and the game we play in line with each other.

Either way, cluttering up the HH thread with complaints about 40k doesn't really do anyone favors so let's stow this for a more topical location in the future.

 stahly wrote:
I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really

Here is my review: https://taleofpainters.com/2022/06/review-legiones-astartes-special-heavy-weapon-upgrade-set/

Spoiler:

In any case, it seems all you need to do to get this fit properly is to slightly change the angle of the shoulder joint. Seems pretty simple to me.

Maybe, maybe not. In the absence of a single completed example, it's too early to make confident statements.

My only hope is that we get a Deimos Pattern Predator - the Forge World price is total extortion.

 blood reaper wrote:
My only hope is that we get a Deimos Pattern Predator - the Forge World price is total extortion.

Given the way the new Rhino is set up, with a universal hull sprue and a separate 'Rhino' sprue, I'd say a Predator sprue is inevitable.

 blood reaper wrote:
My only hope is that we get a Deimos Pattern Predator - the Forge World price is total extortion.

I'd say there's a good chance. Looking at the Deimos Rhino sprue's hints that the it's ready for expansions such as a scorpius or predator sprues and parts

Edit: and there's the universal sponson sprue. So we know predators will be getting Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, Volkite Culverins and Heavy Flamers for sponsons at least. I wouldn't be surprise if the turret weapons end up being the current crop (Plasma Executioner, Magma Melta, Flamestorm, Predator Cannon, Heavy Conversion Beamer) and take away the Twin Lascannon and add in some sort of new Volkite weapon

 blood reaper wrote:
My only hope is that we get a Deimos Pattern Predator - the Forge World price is total extortion.

I honestly can’t imagine we won’t get them and the other chassis variants.

I mean, the whole reason the Rhino chassis is ubiquitous in the background is it was cheaper tooling for GW in the dim and distant. Speaking of dim and distant? I’m fairly sure the original Rhino kit was a single sprue, doubled up? Might’ve been three sprues to the kit though, as the exhaust pipes were for left and right side. But the track assembly was two of the same sprue.

From there, as we eventually saw, a single sprue then made it a Predator.

This is also why the Rhino, Land Raider and Predator could be taken by more than just Marines. Maximum bang for GW’s tooling investment when plastic was a serious financial unknown.

The same thinking brought us Adeptus Titanicus, both versions. And it applies to Heresy. Start with the chassis as a proper kit, designed and tooled for easy upgrade sprues. That initial investment then does the heavy lifting, as any variant really just needs to pay for its unique sprue(s) rather than being a whole new kit unto itself.

It would be very funny imo if like, for whatever reason, GW simply didn't do the Predator but did literally every other variant instead.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


I mean, the whole reason the Rhino chassis is ubiquitous in the background is it was cheaper tooling for GW in the dim and distant. Speaking of dim and distant? I’m fairly sure the original Rhino kit was a single sprue, doubled up? Might’ve been three sprues to the kit though, as the exhaust pipes were for left and right side. But the track assembly was two of the same sprue.

From there, as we eventually saw, a single sprue then made it a Predator.

This is also why the Rhino, Land Raider and Predator could be taken by more than just Marines. Maximum bang for GW’s tooling investment when plastic was a serious financial unknown.

The same thinking brought us Adeptus Titanicus, both versions. And it applies to Heresy. Start with the chassis as a proper kit, designed and tooled for easy upgrade sprues. That initial investment then does the heavy lifting, as any variant really just needs to pay for its unique sprue(s) rather than being a whole new kit unto itself.

You're exactly right, the first Rhino had the same left and right sides AND the same top and bottom. So half a rhino on each sprue.

It was awesome.

So the assumption is the Predator and Kratos (and Sicarian?) share the sponson sprue?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So the assumption is the Predator and Kratos (and Sicarian?) share the sponson sprue?

Yeah, it looks like a universal sprue (It's labeled as Sprue "S" and just has sponson on the sprue and no specific kit is referenced). The mounting points look similar to the resin ones that appeared on all Predators, Sicarans, Javelins (plastic Javelins maybe?) and certain superheavies and they were universal fittings. The new plastic sicaran has the same sponson weapon options:

 blood reaper wrote:
It would be very funny imo if like, for whatever reason, GW simply didn't do the Predator but did literally every other variant instead.

I’m fairly sure we’ve seen a pic of a Volkite turret Predator which is new. I’d be very incredibly surprised if that’s not part of a plastic kit.

I am very sure we are going to see new Predator with some new things and some reviews mention of volkite main cannon.

I just suspect that you can't make "Baal" variant out of it.

 ekwatts wrote:
Chain cannon is a good example of how little of the original context we have, and how negative nancies effectively have to just make stuff up in their heads to fit a pre-existing "GW are poppy heads" prejudice.

It's been stated pretty clearly before now how the models and kits are designed mostly independently of the rules. So what you have is a designer(/s) putting together a sprue of components with at least a vague brief. For Havocs? They're an established unit that has a few solid expectations; it should at least match the existing devastation sprue, it should include a wide variety of existing known quantities, like heavy bolters,, lascannons, etc.

So that's what they do. Then they notice that, having covered most of the bases, if they shift some components around here and there, they can fit one more heavy weapon in, and decide to go for a massive chain cannon.

The codex writers get their hands on the nee models and immediately set about incorporating this unique new weapon into the squad. The rules end up being pretty nifty because, well, you only get one of them, right?

WRONG

WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IS SOME PENNY PINCHER AT HEAD OFFICE IS LIKE "HEH HEH HEH HEH HEHHHH, I WANT YOU TO PUT A COOL OVERPOWERED WEAPON ON THE SPRUE SO THE PLEBS HAVE TO BUY FOUR BOXES!!!!"

AND THE GHOST OF BRYAN ANSELL CRIES A GHOSTLY TEAR INTO AN OCEAN OF HAUNTED SCREAMS ETC

It could be either, it could even be a mixture of both. But surely it isn't worth getting worked up over?

That´s why I have left the Havocs box on the shelf and left the store in disgust.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 ekwatts wrote:
But surely it isn't worth getting worked up over?

You must be new here. <in Gerard Butler voice> THIS...IS...DAKKA!!!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I've seen people gluing first born marines on primaris before, they look a little awkward but it's been done

BURN IT WITH FIRE!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 stahly wrote:
I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really

Here is my review: https://taleofpainters.com/2022/06/review-legiones-astartes-special-heavy-weapon-upgrade-set/

How annyoing, I wish GW would just stick to the 3rd edition method of putting handles on weapons, and hands on arms (if that makes sense). Makes swapping among kits easier and allows us to put weapons on someone's back or on a base or whatever. I don't see the advantage of molding on hands to guns.

So this means all the beakies pull specialist/heavy duty and the old Marks are destined to only carry bolters?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
It would be very funny imo if like, for whatever reason, GW simply didn't do the Predator but did literally every other variant instead.

I’m fairly sure we’ve seen a pic of a Volkite turret Predator which is new. I’d be very incredibly surprised if that’s not part of a plastic kit.

Just had a scan and these are some new Predator turret weapons in the new book:

Gravitor Cannon
Volkite Macro-Saker
Neutron Blaster
Gravis Lascannon

 Strg Alt wrote:
So this means all the beakies pull specialist/heavy duty and the old Marks are destined to only carry bolters?

The MkIV kit comes with Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, and Flamers. The MkIII kit drops the Missiles and keeps everything else.

The best part of all of this is how precious people are being about doing the absolute bare minimum work to make the new weapons fit the older models. You should try doing HH when your options are insanely expensive FW kits or scrounging together what parts you can from 40k units.