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You know what? I'm going to coin a new term: "Fake Math".
This is not a new approach, it's the same thing we've seen certain elected officials resorting to when questioned or challenged and they don't have any competent response, and seek to instead discredit the source or questioner.
The WHO is using Fake Math with the intention of instilling an irrational sense of fear - terror, if you will - in order to pressure the world governments into enacting their policies.
...to what point and purpose?
World domination by the evil shadow epidemiologist league?
The WHO is, by definition, a terrorist organization.
O_o
Alternatively, is it possible that a lot of this is instead a reflection of the fact that data is always dirty and takes time to clean and analyze, data in news reports is typically incomplete and that this is still an actively evolving situation, people reporting on it often have no fething clue what they're talking about and the people reading it usually have even less of one, and that specifics often aren't terribly relevant next to the general trendline?
I may have him on ignore but it is certainly interesting to see people quote the good bits, even if I do not understand the logic of continuing to respond to what is essentially trolling at this point.
They probably didn't do a good enough job of identifying, testing and isolating people who came in to the country with the disease (the UK seems to have been more effective than most at this)
The don't seem to have been as good at contact tracing those who they did identify with the disease so they could isolate and test all the folk they met when they might have been contagious (again the UK seems to have done a decent job)
Please tell me you do not actually believe that rubish???
You are aware that the Uk only has 4000 emergency respiration units and the UK has been building tents for the dead around parks especially in the London area, this is confirmed.
The infected have jumped to over 5000 and most certainly reach 10000 by next week
Jerram wrote: Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence. I think the WHO may just be overreacting to compensate for their initial downplaying and kowtowing to China.
In all honesty, I think the worst of this is because the US government (and others) are the ones overreacting in their response. The WHO isn't the one shutting down entire states, stopping surgeries, and encouraging curfews. That's incompetence, and we'll be living with it for a long, long time.
The WHO is simply overstating the danger of this disease due to multiple reasons:
1) Their models are incomplete and their methods of collecting and organizing data are an embarrassment. Their predictions are just plain wrong because they are based an bad data and dumb people who don't know how to read it anyway. That being said, they do have data that is relevant and which could put the true severity of this disease into sharp relief, but they are not sharing. They should know better than to compare this coronavirus to the Spanish Flu.
2) I additionally think it is because they think only they can control it and only their methods will work (the idea I stated above, that the UN believes it should be the world government). It's not just about scaring countries into following their gameplan, but also dismissing and downplaying the success of techniques they don't endorse while hyping up the failures of those who didn't follow their plans soon enough. I get a strong "don't say we didn't warn you" and "we told you so" vibe from their press conferences.
3) I think the WHO has a deep and obscene connection with pharmaceutical companies. The only end game they have offered up is the creation of a new vaccine, or the repurposing of existing drugs, and it is obvious that their only considered resolution is a drug which they will distribute. It's like they have blinders on, so any outcome which doesn't result in this singular conclusion is often ignored or downplayed.
4) I think the WHO wants to be the hero. They have the self image of righteous crusaders. Fighting an unworthy foe doesn't fit with their vision of who they are, so every foe must be the worthiest. To use a social justice metaphor, because the WHO is on the right side of history, that makes this virus literally Hitler.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm really curious as to why people think that writing long, well organized posts filled with facts and figures to back up statements, and plenty of links to reputable sources, is considered "trolling". Do they really think that, by virtue of having a different opinion, I am being malicious in some way?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I may have him on ignore but it is certainly interesting to see people quote the good bits, even if I do not understand the logic of continuing to respond to what is essentially trolling at this point.
Like, for example, this post seems way more troll-like than anything I've written. It contributes nothing of worth to the discussion, it's overly dismissive, it's aggressive, it's prideful in the fact that he literally hasn't read what he is commenting on, and there's even a bit of name calling. In short, it is a worthless, malicious comment intended to flame the fans of conflict on an internet message board. If that isn't trolling, nothing is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/21 22:10:09
The Italians and their greeting customs is definitely a big factor, (same with Spain and France.) and one of the reasons I don't think we'll be as affected. Brits aren't that big on physical greetings. A handshake or a hug here or there. And hopefully we've caught it soon enough that people have stopped all that in time. I also believe that's why Germany doesn't have it as bad, because they don't do the whole kissing thing as much as their southern neighbours.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/21 22:15:01
It's not even realistic to achieve these goals by 3030!
There are enough resources and food production to supply everyone on earth with what they need. There is a bottleneck in transport of course, but the obvious bottleneck is how this wealth of resources is distributed. It's not that we can't feed and clothe everyone, it's that the current parasitical class of owners has no interest in it.
The epidemic does wonders for uncovering just how useless the big business boys are too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/21 22:15:55
They probably didn't do a good enough job of identifying, testing and isolating people who came in to the country with the disease (the UK seems to have been more effective than most at this)
The don't seem to have been as good at contact tracing those who they did identify with the disease so they could isolate and test all the folk they met when they might have been contagious (again the UK seems to have done a decent job)
Please tell me you do not actually believe that rubish???
You are aware that the Uk only has 4000 emergency respiration units and the UK has been building tents for the dead around parks especially in the London area, this is confirmed.
The infected have jumped to over 5000 and most certainly reach 10000 by next week
Say what you like about the British Press, and there's much to be said, but if the government was doing the 21st century equivalent of digging plague pits, I'm pretty sure they'd be letting people know.
But then, as it's confirmed, I'm sure you'll have no trouble providing a link to a reputable source for this.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Considering most hospital morgues are only made to hold a modest number of bodies it would not surprise me in the least if they were preparing alternative storage options in advance considering that things are expected to get worse before they get better.
It's investment that, whilst morbid, is far more practical than letting bodies pile up and cause potential further complications of their own.
Plus its work that can utilise staff who are not medically trained. So it takes no medical resources out of the important treatment part of the process.
I'd honestly be more surprised if they weren't making some kind of preparations to deal with an increased number of bodies. Though what pathway is best to take is likely up for debate; from freezing so that people can bury later; mass burials; fast burials; cremation etc...
My Mother is a nurse living in the midwest. On Monday her hospital had 3 suspect cases, and 2 confirmed.
Today, they have 156 suspect cases, and 43 confirmed, 15 of which are hospitalized. Of those hospitalized, 3 are in the ICU currently on ventilators. All of them are under 45. There are 4 more patients who are deteriorating and will likely require ventilation within the next day. One of her friends, a nurse at another hospital is seeing similar numbers for the ICU, all of them under 45 with he exception of 1.
In the state I live in further west, we had a huge spike in cases over the last two days. Some of them were due to a local church defying order to shelter in place. Nearly 50 people were exposed to three different people with now confirmed infection.
I'm expecting that our state will take more drastic actions in the next two days, as will the university I work for.
Jerram wrote: Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence. I think the WHO may just be overreacting to compensate for their initial downplaying and kowtowing to China.
In all honesty, I think the worst of this is because the US government (and others) are the ones overreacting in their response. The WHO isn't the one shutting down entire states, stopping surgeries, and encouraging curfews. That's incompetence, and we'll be living with it for a long, long time.
The WHO is simply overstating the danger of this disease due to multiple reasons:
1) Their models are incomplete and their methods of collecting and organizing data are an embarrassment. Their predictions are just plain wrong because they are based an bad data and dumb people who don't know how to read it anyway. That being said, they do have data that is relevant and which could put the true severity of this disease into sharp relief, but they are not sharing. They should know better than to compare this coronavirus to the Spanish Flu.
What is your background in medical analysis & statistics, and what is the basis for your assumption that they are refusing to share for nefarious reasons beyond what your gut thinks?
2) I additionally think it is because they think only they can control it and only their methods will work (the idea I stated above, that the UN believes it should be the world government). It's not just about scaring countries into following their gameplan, but also dismissing and downplaying the success of techniques they don't endorse while hyping up the failures of those who didn't follow their plans soon enough. I get a strong "don't say we didn't warn you" and "we told you so" vibe from their press conferences.
WHO is an advisory agency with no direct powers subordinate to an international organization that lacks and claims no soveriegnty of any sort, and is very intentionally designed and kept that way. There's a whole lot of projection here.
3) I think the WHO has a deep and obscene connection with pharmaceutical companies. The only end game they have offered up is the creation of a new vaccine, or the repurposing of existing drugs, and it is obvious that their only considered resolution is a drug which they will distribute. It's like they have blinders on, so any outcome which doesn't result in this singular conclusion is often ignored or downplayed.
Again, a lot of projection and assumption here, but nothing really to back any of this up. This stuff is right out of DeusEx, Altered Carbon, etc.
4) I think the WHO wants to be the hero. They have the self image of righteous crusaders. Fighting an unworthy foe doesn't fit with their vision of who they are, so every foe must be the worthiest. To use a social justice metaphor, because the WHO is on the right side of history, that makes this virus literally Hitler.
And yet we don't see such action or recommendations from these organizations except in very rare cases. In this instance, even the lowest estimated death rates are orders of magnitude larger than typical seasonal flu rates, and is extremely communicable. Wanting to be good at their job in response to such an event doesn't appear to be unwarranted...
I'm really curious as to why people think that writing long, well organized posts filled with facts and figures to back up statements, and plenty of links to reputable sources, is considered "trolling". Do they really think that, by virtue of having a different opinion, I am being malicious in some way?
Mostly because you're manufacturing entire worlds out of snippets, with basically zero professed expertise in any relevant fields.
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Honestly, Drastic actions should have been taken to prevent the spread while it was still in fething china, but we where to scared to anger them. what should have happened was all travel to and from china be halted and all suspected people be rounded up and quarantined.
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hotsauceman1 wrote: Honestly, Drastic actions should have been taken to prevent the spread while it was still in fething china, but we where to scared to anger them. what should have happened was all travel to and from china be halted and all suspected people be rounded up and quarantined.
Sensible, but that would have been labeled as "racist" had it been done.
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Overread wrote: Considering most hospital morgues are only made to hold a modest number of bodies it would not surprise me in the least if they were preparing alternative storage options in advance considering that things are expected to get worse before they get better.
It's investment that, whilst morbid, is far more practical than letting bodies pile up and cause potential further complications of their own.
Plus its work that can utilise staff who are not medically trained. So it takes no medical resources out of the important treatment part of the process.
I'd honestly be more surprised if they weren't making some kind of preparations to deal with an increased number of bodies. Though what pathway is best to take is likely up for debate; from freezing so that people can bury later; mass burials; fast burials; cremation etc...
Hospital morgues have low capacities because they're not intended for long term storage, they're generally only needed until next of kin have been informed and the body collected, typically by whichever funeral home has been employed, until the funeral. Consequently they're not likely to be overwhelmed in the sense of body bags in the corridor.
Even if all the hospitals and funeral homes start to struggle, I'm sure there's any amount of refrigerated facilities that could be appropriately repurposed, up to and including having cold lorries in the car park.
While I don't doubt there are contingencies, I'm fairly confident, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, that Corpses Go Camping isn't even remotely near the top of that list, if it's even on it.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
hotsauceman1 wrote: Honestly, Drastic actions should have been taken to prevent the spread while it was still in fething china, but we where to scared to anger them. what should have happened was all travel to and from china be halted and all suspected people be rounded up and quarantined.
Sensible, but that would have been labeled as "racist" had it been done.
We’re already there. The racism is real. However, so is stick-up-the-ass-itis. “Kung flu” is a play on words that is trying to make light of a crappy situation. Spitting on Asian people is disgusting and should never be acceptable in a civilized world. 20 years ago we knew the difference between those two things.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
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hotsauceman1 wrote: Honestly, Drastic actions should have been taken to prevent the spread while it was still in fething china, but we where to scared to anger them. what should have happened was all travel to and from china be halted and all suspected people be rounded up and quarantined.
Sensible, but that would have been labeled as "racist" had it been done.
We’re already there. The racism is real. However, so is stick-up-the-ass-itis. “Kung flu” is a play on words that is trying to make light of a crappy situation. Spitting on Asian people is disgusting and should never be acceptable in a civilized world. 20 years ago we knew the difference between those two things.
I mean, did we?
After 9/11 racism against people from the middle east sky rocketed.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Honestly, Drastic actions should have been taken to prevent the spread while it was still in fething china, but we where to scared to anger them. what should have happened was all travel to and from china be halted and all suspected people be rounded up and quarantined.
Sensible, but that would have been labeled as "racist" had it been done.
When you're giving speeches and crossing out "coronavirus" and penciling in "Chinese virus", you're not troubled by the optics of racism. This is a halfass way of trying to shuffle the anemic response to the early days of the virus off to the media, everyone's favorite whipping boy.
There are a few factors in place that guaranteed it would have gotten to the US regardless - the Chinese government's initial attempts at a coverup allowed it to spread, coupled with our government's denial that there even was a problem, coupled with the levels of incompetence that have festered at the very top.
In any event, it's here now. so no point in recriminations. Pandemics happen and they aren't owned by any one country, and with the way the world is globally connected now, it's going to be very hard to stop one early now.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/22 02:58:39
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Spain and France (all of the Mediterranean countries I think) have close social interaction and greetings I think, but I do agree that Italian are particularly close (at least, that's what is said). But the surge in case, despite the lockdown, is just incredibly catastrophic ! That's what is surprising me.
I'm super interested by South Korea too and how they handled the thing like champions, we should take example on them.
How did they English got so good in identifying the Chinese virus carriers coming to their country ? Is that why they have taken so long to act, thinking they were safe thanks to the sea and the borders ?
Well, presumably the biggest risk is your own citizen tourists returning home. Those are the guys who would need to be identified and quarantined immediately.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Rolsheen wrote: I love coming to this thread, it's always hilarious to read. I get more reliable scientific information about the coronavirus off Pornhub.
I suppose that is a good website to become an expert on things getting into the body.
Rolsheen wrote: I love coming to this thread, it's always hilarious to read. I get more reliable scientific information about the coronavirus off Pornhub.
I suppose that is a good website to become an expert on things getting into the body.
No Lie man, this gave me a nice hard belly laugh i couldnt breath.
If you look at the graph of detected infections in the UK, it looks like we will be like Italy in a week or two.
A lot of undetected infectious people are in the population, and there is still a lot more social mixing than should be going on.
I'm glad I live in a small town. I'd rather never get the virus, but if I am going to get it, I would like to wait until the initial pressure has gone down a bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I see no sign that panic buying is dying down. If anything it's getting worse.
Waitrose in central Henley yesterday afternoon was pretty much empty of vegetables, meat, fish, bread, frozen stuff, canned stuff, dry stuff like rice, pasta, lentils and flour, toilet paper. They had some eggs. They still had decent stocks of booze, thank goodness!
My family is actually pretty well stocked up. We've bought a few extra tins and stuff over the past couple of weeks, and we have a reserve of long-life stuff anyway. Even so, it is very worrying to see the empty shelves. Fresh veg and bread iis what we will run out of first.
We usually drive over to Aldi in Reading or Lidl in Wallingford at the weekend, but we're not going to bother. It's not worth the risk of finding the shelves empty.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/22 07:14:28
Rolsheen wrote: I love coming to this thread, it's always hilarious to read. I get more reliable scientific information about the coronavirus off Pornhub.
Get a milk man for eggs, milk and juice. Find a local veg box business. You can buy many long shelf life staples in bulk off amazon. Perhaps time to go African on the maize meal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I too wondered about pharmaceutical incentives for WHO.
Harvard X on edx runs a free Strenghening Community Health Worker Programs courses.
It goes some way to explaining WHO’s emphasis on vaccines. Even in third world countries having paid low level health workers administrating and delivering vaccination programs has a 10:1 return on investment by extending working lives and reducing time off work.
That return on investment for vaccines is before even considering the cost saved on what have been spent treating the prevented illness or the costs incurred if the vaccinated person had been infected and spread the illness.
Vaccines for serious illnesses are remarkably efficient in economic terms.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/22 09:51:17
Local Sainsbury’s stocks were far healthier yesterday, and I went fairly late in the day.
Booze was pretty much cleared out, but staple foods were there in decent amounts. Staff member said half the problem was finding the time to actually stock the shelves. Sure, some is done over night, but what with everything they’re short handed during most shifts.
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