Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Sqorgar wrote:
. Before you jump down my throat, look at the difference between Spain and Germany. Spain has thousands dead, Germany has dozens. Same virus. Last I checked, they had roughly similar confirmed positive cases. .

Based on a quick google, Germany did more extensive and earlier testing, resulting in them identifying cases earlier. Earlier detection both helped them break the chain and presumably start medical treatment earlier, which would have dropped the deathrate significantly. Germany also apparently had a younger average.

Work might be sacking us for the time being or something. While my field has been deemed essential by CA, my company might believe that the risk is not worth.
I mean, they shut down the entire company when they found out i MIGHT have it lol.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Not sure if this was already stated but I would be interested to see how they are correlating cause of death to corona. If you’re 85 and battling cancer and this unfortunately puts you over the edge are they counting that as a cancer death? Is it counted as a corona death? Double counted? Especially since the majority of individuals who are succumbing to this pandemic seem to be those with preexisting health issues. I want to see % with zero underlying medical conditions.

I’m asking because that could explain the differences between countries and how they report deaths.

Well Italy counts anyone who dies while having covid 19 as having died from covid 19, and I imagine so does the UK, with our numbers.

Good luck!

My daughter is semi-self-isolating in her bedroom on the second floor.

We eat our meals separately and use Facetime to be together. (Except the Internet is crap and doesn't work properly.)

 Sqorgar wrote:

jouso wrote:

I would have thought crime would go massively down with a lockdown order?

You mean when all those fully stocked stores and businesses that are just sitting there without guards or employees? Where it could be weeks before anyone comes back to check on them?

That's not how it works.

Except cops and army are on the streets, and have a reason to ask anyone why they're going anywhere. They've been known to ask for shopping receipts and check vehicles.

It's not a very friendly environment for criminals.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Not sure if this was already stated but I would be interested to see how they are correlating cause of death to corona. If you’re 85 and battling cancer and this unfortunately puts you over the edge are they counting that as a cancer death? Is it counted as a corona death? Double counted? Especially since the majority of individuals who are succumbing to this pandemic seem to be those with preexisting health issues. I want to see % with zero underlying medical conditions.

I’m asking because that could explain the differences between countries and how they report deaths.

Well Italy counts anyone who dies while having covid 19 as having died from covid 19, and I imagine so does the UK, with our numbers.

Not only that, Italy will do post-mortem tests and if the virus is found death will be chalked up to covid, even if no prior symptoms were found.

jouso wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

jouso wrote:

I would have thought crime would go massively down with a lockdown order?

You mean when all those fully stocked stores and businesses that are just sitting there without guards or employees? Where it could be weeks before anyone comes back to check on them?

That's not how it works.

Except cops and army are on the streets, and have a reason to ask anyone why they're going anywhere. They've been known to ask for shopping receipts and check vehicles.

It's not a very friendly environment for criminals.

Crime is down over here.
Just the most stupid exemples of people not paying attention to their own stupidity.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So France is now treating people with chloroquine in hospitals ! We'll soon see if hundreds are healed or not. It's gonna be over soon, as it is a cheap and easily available drug.

To the best of my knowledge France is only doing limited trials to test viability. It will be weeks or months before a determination can be made as to its viability as a wide-scale treatment. Even still, its not "gonna be over soon".

Chloroquine has been used from the start of the whole thing, China, Italy.... everywhere. It's just a tool in the toolbox, which comes with its own set of problems (a few people have already died in the US and Nigeria from Chloroquine poisoning) and the first results of a more serious test (randomized, controlled, etc.) have been disappointing.

https://twitter.com/gcbioinv/status/1242268829906018304

From what I've read about France, one well-known (in
his field) epidemiologist has done a limited trial on 20 patients in IC of whom 75% recovered, then touted it as the cure and the test and claim were rightfully condemned due to the small sample size. Still, the results were promising enough that more extensive testing is now being carried out nationwide.
It and other promising existing medications (which obviously have known side-effects and have already passed human safety trials) are also being tested in smaller scale in the Netherlands and presumably other countries as well.

I would suspect for crime there'd be a reduction in house break-ins and a reduction in opportunistic and grab and run crimes - mostly because many of the opportunistic people are likely at home; most of the population being at home and the work/rest cycle being broken means criminals don't know when its safe to break into homes and you can't pick pockets if there's no pockets to pick and if people are keeping to the social distancing methods.



However planned crime against specific retail outlets I would expect to rise since there's far fewer on the streets. Of course streets with military and police standing and patrolling imght further knock those crimes down; but even the forces have to rest.

So yeah a lot of petty smaller end crime might be down, but the big stuff is likely still going on.

and in the case of the schools, the pandemic is actually a cause of the crime, because they stole the freezers.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
and in the case of the schools, the pandemic is actually a cause of the crime, because they stole the freezers.

Like WTF, the supply and logistic is maintainable of food and other necesities.
ARE PEOPLE THAT DAFT.

Then again i am not surprised , stupidity really knows no bounds.

Yeah but if you just stole a whole container load of Iceland food (before setting the lorry on fire...) you've got to stash it somewhere qiuck and thus you need some freezers before you move it all along

Bran Dawri wrote:
From what I've read about France, one well-known (in
his field) epidemiologist has done a limited trial on 20 patients in IC of whom 75% recovered, then touted it as the cure and the test and claim were rightfully condemned due to the small sample size. Still, the results were promising enough that more extensive testing is now being carried out nationwide.
It and other promising existing medications (which obviously have known side-effects and have already passed human safety trials) are also being tested in smaller scale in the Netherlands and presumably other countries as well.

Yes but the thing is, Chloroquine has been administered to COVID patients from the very start.

If you were in a Spanish hospital treated for COVID you would have probably had Chloroquine or HCO administered.... if anything because it's one of the few tools it's proven to do something, and early uses of course come from China, then Italy, etc.

Here's a COVID chart for some Madrid hospital. You'll be given CO/HCO as prophylactic measure even if they don't know if you're infected.



My point is CO/HCO is no wonder drug. It's just one of the few things for which there's some evidence that it does something so everyone is using it (especially because it's cheap and widespread) but we have to keep in mind its many dangers.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Good luck!

My daughter is semi-self-isolating in her bedroom on the second floor.

We eat our meals separately and use Facetime to be together. (Except the Internet is crap and doesn't work properly.)

She seems to have come down with a case of teenageritis!

I thought I’d helped common sense prevail in work yesterday but things have only gotten worse. They’re actually going ahead with the van idea...and until that’s arranged everyone, and I mean everyone, is congregating outside together in a group 100+ strong. It’s absolute maddness.

I think I might actually have to call the cops.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I thought I’d helped common sense prevail in work yesterday but things have only gotten worse. They’re actually going ahead with the van idea...and until that’s arranged everyone, and I mean everyone, is congregating outside together in a group 100+ strong. It’s absolute maddness.

I think I might actually have to call the cops.

I feel that you absolutely should.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52033845

Prince Charles tests positive for the virus.


Be a few other members of the royal family sweating over having contracted it or not --

-- not Andrew though, obviously

jouso wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Not sure if this was already stated but I would be interested to see how they are correlating cause of death to corona. If you’re 85 and battling cancer and this unfortunately puts you over the edge are they counting that as a cancer death? Is it counted as a corona death? Double counted? Especially since the majority of individuals who are succumbing to this pandemic seem to be those with preexisting health issues. I want to see % with zero underlying medical conditions.

I’m asking because that could explain the differences between countries and how they report deaths.

Well Italy counts anyone who dies while having covid 19 as having died from covid 19, and I imagine so does the UK, with our numbers.

Not only that, Italy will do post-mortem tests and if the virus is found death will be chalked up to covid, even if no prior symptoms were found.

So not only are the death rates skewed if you look at who is reporting infection vs not reporting infection that is also skewed. Without any empirical data to back this up I would guesstimate that the virus has infected more people and has a much lower mortality rate than is being reported. Its just like influenza every year. If I get the flu and infect my wife but neither of us are hospitalized or die how does the CDC know or incorporate our two cases into their overall numbers for the number of infected vs mortality rate. If both of us were to go to the hospital and one of us died from the flu that would paint a much more stark picture of its lethality in relation to infection from just that small sample size.

The sad thing is that there will always be people only concerned when the virus is actually falling on them. You can't ask them to have empathy or understand other people's suffering when they never cared about it before. In a way, that's why we have this situation - as long as the virus stayed outside of our country's doors, we can always say it's not our problem. Once it is there, now it suddenly becomes different - but of course, it's too late, the pandemic already happened.

A lot of conservative guys are angry that their world is changing because of the pandemic. So it's more acceptable to deny its actual danger and minimize its impact. That's how they dealt with everything before, why would they consider it differently now ?

It's easy to be cold and say other people's lives don't matter, when you're not impacted.

This virus makes both the worst and the best from humans. And it's plainly obvious to watch.

I mean, just watch the number of people still talking about economy having to take priority over people's health. Well, they're not saying it that way, but that's the message. Our beliefs will have to be shaken, because the virus doesn't care about politics or human delusions. It happens nonetheless.

Everyone can go to the hospital of Marseille and get freely screened for covid19. If they have it they will freely give them chloroquine. So many people are taking it there are shortage for people who actually need it like immunodeficient people, unfortunately.
They are queueing by hundreds at the hospital and the tests are made outside for some.
Pr.Didier Raoult actually launched this initiative.

Stupid thing but here policemen have been asked officially not to use gloves and masks, and to remove them if they were using it. What a dumbass idea and government...

 godardc wrote:

Spoiler:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So France is now treating people with chloroquine in hospitals ! We'll soon see if hundreds are healed or not. It's gonna be over soon, as it is a cheap and easily available drug.

To the best of my knowledge France is only doing limited trials to test viability. It will be weeks or months before a determination can be made as to its viability as a wide-scale treatment. Even still, its not "gonna be over soon" - early trials indicate its a 3-6 day course of treatment to see results, during which time patients will need to remain in the hospital (if its bad enough to warrant pharmaceutical treatment then the patient in question is likely already hospitalized). By the time the patient arrives in the hospital they have already been contagious for several days, for some portion of that time they will have been asymptomatic, so they have already potentially transmitted the virus to a number of other individuals before arriving or before there was any indication of illness. These other individuals will themselves be potential transmission vectors for the virus, as well as having their own potential for hospitalization, etc. etc. etc.

All what Chloroquine will do is help us prevent deaths, it does not prevent transmission, we still need to maintain active measures to flatten the curve in order to prevent hospitals and healthcare providers from being overwhelmed, otherwise France and other nations will quickly end up like Italy (or for that matter New York City). We will be engaging in mitigation and containment measures for months to come regardless of whether or not chloroquine pans out as an effective treatment.

Everyone can go to the hospital of Marseille and get freely screened for covid19. If they have it they will freely give them chloroquine. So many people are taking it there are shortage for people who actually need it like immunodeficient people, unfortunately.
They are queueing by hundreds at the hospital and the tests are made outside for some.
Pr.Didier Raoult actually launched this initiative.

Stupid thing but here policemen have been asked officially not to use gloves and masks, and to remove them if they were using it. What a dumbass idea and government...

I feel like this would be incredibly dangerous. If you were not infected with coronavirus and you stood in line by a hospital with hundreds of potentially infected people. Received a test before the virus had time to infiltrate your system, went home and received the call that you're virus free even though you're now infected, and possibly infect other people because you received the doctors clean bill of health.

Sarouan wrote:
The sad thing is that there will always be people only concerned when the virus is actually falling on them. You can't ask them to have empathy or understand other people's suffering when they never cared about it before. In a way, that's why we have this situation - as long as the virus stayed outside of our country's doors, we can always say it's not our problem. Once it is there, now it suddenly becomes different - but of course, it's too late, the pandemic already happened.

A lot of conservative guys are angry that their world is changing because of the pandemic. So it's more acceptable to deny its actual danger and minimize its impact. That's how they dealt with everything before, why would they consider it differently now ?

It's easy to be cold and say other people's lives don't matter, when you're not impacted.

This virus makes both the worst and the best from humans. And it's plainly obvious to watch.

I mean, just watch the number of people still talking about economy having to take priority over people's health. Well, they're not saying it that way, but that's the message. Our beliefs will have to be shaken, because the virus doesn't care about politics or human delusions. It happens nonetheless.

What does a persons political opinion have to do with it? you could just keep that out of the comment totally.

 godardc wrote:

Spoiler:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So France is now treating people with chloroquine in hospitals ! We'll soon see if hundreds are healed or not. It's gonna be over soon, as it is a cheap and easily available drug.

To the best of my knowledge France is only doing limited trials to test viability. It will be weeks or months before a determination can be made as to its viability as a wide-scale treatment. Even still, its not "gonna be over soon" - early trials indicate its a 3-6 day course of treatment to see results, during which time patients will need to remain in the hospital (if its bad enough to warrant pharmaceutical treatment then the patient in question is likely already hospitalized). By the time the patient arrives in the hospital they have already been contagious for several days, for some portion of that time they will have been asymptomatic, so they have already potentially transmitted the virus to a number of other individuals before arriving or before there was any indication of illness. These other individuals will themselves be potential transmission vectors for the virus, as well as having their own potential for hospitalization, etc. etc. etc.

All what Chloroquine will do is help us prevent deaths, it does not prevent transmission, we still need to maintain active measures to flatten the curve in order to prevent hospitals and healthcare providers from being overwhelmed, otherwise France and other nations will quickly end up like Italy (or for that matter New York City). We will be engaging in mitigation and containment measures for months to come regardless of whether or not chloroquine pans out as an effective treatment.

Everyone can go to the hospital of Marseille and get freely screened for covid19. If they have it they will freely give them chloroquine. So many people are taking it there are shortage for people who actually need it like immunodeficient people, unfortunately.
They are queueing by hundreds at the hospital and the tests are made outside for some.
Pr.Didier Raoult actually launched this initiative.

Stupid thing but here policemen have been asked officially not to use gloves and masks, and to remove them if they were using it. What a dumbass idea and government...

I've seen film of a variety of police on the continent using face masks, but they often have the pulled down so their nose is uncovered, keep adjusting them, take them off when they get in their cars or talk to a camera man, all of these render the mask useless, and indeed potentially harmful as the outside should be considered contaminated,

so asking them not to use them (Unless dealing with somebody know be infected or showing symptoms, and then the need to bin those masks & gloves afterwards) is probably not a bad idea, it will encourage them to keep a safer 2M away from others where possible

At the same time whilst they might not actually offer any protection, the sight of officials wearing them might well make people take extra precautions of their own. A Policeman in a facemask with gloves standing at distance ordering you to go home/disperse for your own health carries more weight.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
The sad thing is that there will always be people only concerned when the virus is actually falling on them. You can't ask them to have empathy or understand other people's suffering when they never cared about it before. In a way, that's why we have this situation - as long as the virus stayed outside of our country's doors, we can always say it's not our problem. Once it is there, now it suddenly becomes different - but of course, it's too late, the pandemic already happened.

A lot of conservative guys are angry that their world is changing because of the pandemic. So it's more acceptable to deny its actual danger and minimize its impact. That's how they dealt with everything before, why would they consider it differently now ?

It's easy to be cold and say other people's lives don't matter, when you're not impacted.

This virus makes both the worst and the best from humans. And it's plainly obvious to watch.

I mean, just watch the number of people still talking about economy having to take priority over people's health. Well, they're not saying it that way, but that's the message. Our beliefs will have to be shaken, because the virus doesn't care about politics or human delusions. It happens nonetheless.

What does a persons political opinion have to do with it? you could just keep that out of the comment totally.

At least locally, it's the conservative politicians saying that the elderly ought to be happy to sacrifice themselves so that the economy can do better. Specifically, the Republican lieutenant governor of Texas.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
The sad thing is that there will always be people only concerned when the virus is actually falling on them. You can't ask them to have empathy or understand other people's suffering when they never cared about it before. In a way, that's why we have this situation - as long as the virus stayed outside of our country's doors, we can always say it's not our problem. Once it is there, now it suddenly becomes different - but of course, it's too late, the pandemic already happened.

A lot of conservative guys are angry that their world is changing because of the pandemic. So it's more acceptable to deny its actual danger and minimize its impact. That's how they dealt with everything before, why would they consider it differently now ?

It's easy to be cold and say other people's lives don't matter, when you're not impacted.

This virus makes both the worst and the best from humans. And it's plainly obvious to watch.

I mean, just watch the number of people still talking about economy having to take priority over people's health. Well, they're not saying it that way, but that's the message. Our beliefs will have to be shaken, because the virus doesn't care about politics or human delusions. It happens nonetheless.

What does a persons political opinion have to do with it? you could just keep that out of the comment totally.

One side of the equation literally said they're fine with people dying to keep economy going. That's not a personal opinion, that's fact.

insaniak wrote:Based on a quick google, Germany did more extensive and earlier testing, resulting in them identifying cases earlier. Earlier detection both helped them break the chain and presumably start medical treatment earlier, which would have dropped the deathrate significantly. Germany also apparently had a younger average.

While it is possible, I'd be more likely to believe this if the number of cases in Germany was considerably lower than Spain's. After all, if they are catching the disease before it spreads, they should have fewer cases, right? And if the mortality rate was a static number, then they'd have a similar mortality/hospitalization rate compared to the number of cases, which they absolutely do not. For instance, when I checked yesterday, Germany only had 23 cases in the hospital. That makes it seem like the difference happens before medical treatment is required.

queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I’m asking because that could explain the differences between countries and how they report deaths.

Well Italy counts anyone who dies while having covid 19 as having died from covid 19, and I imagine so does the UK, with our numbers.

I don't know about the WHO, but with the CDC, they count anybody who dies while having the disease. You could get hit by a car crossing the street and it be counted as a flu death. The reason for this is because they keep a list of everybody who has it, and everybody from that list who dies. And they still use that number to count for the mortality rate! When they release an itemized list of death causes, anything which is in a category too small to individually list will be grouped together into a "less than 1% of cases" or "other" category.

I know why they do this. If you die from heart failure, they can't tell if that heart failure was related to the flu or not. So rather than try to parse out the causes of death into "likely the flu" or "not likely the flu", they just keep all the deaths so as to not miss potentially important data. But at the same time, for certain diseases, this could lead to a grossly disproportionate number of cases counted. For instance, one of the early Italy deaths was an elderly guy who had just had risky heart surgery and was in the ICU - did the coronavirus kill him, or did complications from the surgery kill him?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
and in the case of the schools, the pandemic is actually a cause of the crime, because they stole the freezers.

Like WTF, the supply and logistic is maintainable of food and other necesities.
ARE PEOPLE THAT DAFT.

Clearly they are.

Always bear in mind the words of George Carlin. "When dealing with stupid people, always remember how dumb the average person is... and then remember that half the population is even dumber than THAT!"

 Vulcan wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
and in the case of the schools, the pandemic is actually a cause of the crime, because they stole the freezers.

Like WTF, the supply and logistic is maintainable of food and other necesities.
ARE PEOPLE THAT DAFT.

Clearly they are.

Always bear in mind the words of George Carlin. "When dealing with stupid people, always remember how dumb the average person is... and then remember that half the population is even dumber than THAT!"

And, depending on the method of averaging, it could be more than half!

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

What does a persons political opinion have to do with it? you could just keep that out of the comment totally.

If it were one person, however influential, they could be dismissed as a random nut.

But you see this opinion repeated over and over again. Repeated dozens if not hundreds of times. And the people saying it have one thing in common: their political affiliation. It's a whole political organization with this attitude, representing (and closely followed by) roughly half the population of a major nation.