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We have entire generations who seem fundamentally unable to genuinely consider the other side of an argument. To take a breath, put themselves in another's shoes, assume them to be reasonable, and think about how they came to that opinion. It's a real problem, and it's going to keep costing us lives as we bicker over basic public health policies.
The problem is that this is based upon the flawed assumption that the arguments are both worth considering. More commonly than not(as we see in the conspiracy theory thread), that isn't the case.
That also assumes that "putting themselves in another person's shoes" and "assume them to be reasonable" are not things that give credence to bad faith arguments....which, again, more commonly than not it does.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" - Aristotle.
The issue isn't whether or not that the argument is worth considering, the issue is people decide on whether they agree with the argument based on who is advancing it.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" - Aristotle.
The issue isn't whether or not that the argument is worth considering, the issue is people decide on whether they agree with the argument based on who is advancing it.
The crux of it all isn't it.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Pro tip: if it is US news and labelled an opinion piece, ignore it. It is not even sanctioned by the news organisation it comes from as their position.
But of course it still matters. Is it not dangerous to have personalities on a certain network push quack cures because they're technically opinion shows?
By putting obviously slanted opinion pieces 'above the fold' on a website or on your network in a format that looks like a news report, you're sanctioning it. The "Opinion:" disclaimer may make it *unofficial*, but the sanction is implied. It's like saying "no offense, but" and then saying something clearly offensive. The message is still sent.
Bringing this back more on topic, of course there are some dangerous messages involving C-19 on right-wing media. But if I'm being honest and fair, I have to admit that the left-wing tends to push the panic button and spread despair over every little thing coming out of the WH. That may not be equivalent, but all the BLAAARGH isn't necessarily responsible or high-minded behavior either. It's there to get click$.
We have entire generations who seem fundamentally unable to genuinely consider the other side of an argument. To take a breath, put themselves in another's shoes, assume them to be reasonable, and think about how they came to that opinion. It's a real problem, and it's going to keep costing us lives as we bicker over basic public health policies.
Hm, I feel I made my position unclear. I meant it in the sense of 'US news is bad enough already, one can spare themselves needless torment by ignoring the worst parts.'
The NZ lockdown has been challenged in the courts here as two men tried suing the PM, Health Minister and the Director of Civil Defence Emergency Management for illegal detainment. Their appeal was unsuccessful (due to the fact that they tried to have it heard as a case of habeas corpus) but it has raised the issue in the courts as to the overall legality of the situation.
NZ has now had 21 fatalities (with the most recent being in the same nursing home that has seen eleven others dead) and only two new cases reported today and our cabinet will be looking at further easing restrictions on the 11th May. The new restrictions will allow most business to reopen, travel outside of ones region and larger gatherings (100 people indoors, 500 people outside). So pretty much life as normal.
Not at all. Corona and the economic damage is putting damage to trump's relection and EVERYTHING he does is aimed at november. Polls are showing him to be trailing so he's desperate to change course. And if his gamble fails and millions die? Who cares. His relection is all that matters.
trump has tied himself to strong economy. Economy that is getting hurt. Thus trump's primary goal is kickstart economy.
If trump has 2 options. Do nothing and lose 100% and try kickstarting economy that gives him relection 1% time and 100 million dead american 99% times he goes for the econony kickstart because it's only way he would have relection. Number of deaths if he tries and fails is irrelevant.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Prof Fergusson resigns after breaking lockdown guidance to meet married lover... Don't think it's relevant really, as that in and of itself is not a reason to discredit his work, as some are suggesting, but it is quite funny.
The story breaking yesterday, and every single paper thy put it on it's front cover today (The Sun, The Daily Mail, The Times, and The Telegraph) being right wing publications that did not put UK having the highest death toll in Europe on their front page is not a coincidence.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other (very related) news, several of the right-wing papers are pushing a leaked story about the chancellor planning to cut furlough pay very soon to 'wean' those who're 'addicted' to it off. To 60% then further incremental drops afterwards.
So that's us headed quickly for the 'people receiving financial support during a pandemic are just benefits scroungers' narrative much quicker than expected.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/06 07:09:57
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other (very related) news, several of the right-wing papers are pushing a leaked story about the chancellor planning to cut furlough pay very soon to 'wean' those who're 'addicted' to it off. To 60% then further incremental drops afterwards.
So that's us headed quickly for the 'people receiving financial support during a pandemic are just benefits scroungers' narrative much quicker than expected.
I mean, by all means debate the ammount of social security payments and programms, allways do so, but in such a scenario isn't that like killing off another chunk of custommers for the economy and that's definetly not the time to throw out the remaining custommer base out the window.
Also in general there are very few people actually addicted to such payments so this is just questionable at best.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other (very related) news, several of the right-wing papers are pushing a leaked story about the chancellor planning to cut furlough pay very soon to 'wean' those who're 'addicted' to it off. To 60% then further incremental drops afterwards.
So that's us headed quickly for the 'people receiving financial support during a pandemic are just benefits scroungers' narrative much quicker than expected.
I mean, by all means debate the ammount of social security payments and programms, allways do so, but in such a scenario isn't that like killing off another chunk of custommers for the economy and that's definetly not the time to throw out the remaining custommer base out the window.
Also in general there are very few people actually addicted to such payments so this is just questionable at best.
I think you are right here. most people want to work and support themselves and their family. however, I do worry that the nationwide instilled fear will stop some people from going back to work, so this needs to be done in tandem with targeted campaigns of information letting people know that they don't need to be paralysed with fear of leaving their homes.
The government cant support everyone forever (As I have stated before) but a better way of accomplishing this goal would be to allow people to work again.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/06 08:16:01
so this needs to be done in tandem with targeted campaigns of information letting people know that they don't need to be paralysed with fear of leaving their homes.
Massively dependent on the actual meassure of reach of information the government in question have and how they interact with buisness, seeing them as distinct from them or as just another part of them.
The government cant support everyone forever (As I have stated before) but a better way of accomplishing this goal would be to allow people to work again.
For sure, but in measured approaches, also regardless this is still a crisis and i'd be all for anticyclical behaviour of the state akin to classic keynesianism if the actual budgets for most european nations wouldn't look like a collections of I.O.U.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I'm pretty sure my brother hasn't even received any payment from the government yet, and they're talking about reducing it so people don't get hooked on it??? FFS!
Crispy78 wrote: I'm pretty sure my brother hasn't even received any payment from the government yet, and they're talking about reducing it so people don't get hooked on it??? FFS!
It completly also disregards any knowledge gathered from other crisis and goes completely against any and all established doctrine of economic policy.
Which is why i am quite confused about it.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Crispy78 wrote: I'm pretty sure my brother hasn't even received any payment from the government yet, and they're talking about reducing it so people don't get hooked on it??? FFS!
It completly also disregards any knowledge gathered from other crisis and goes completely against any and all established doctrine of economic policy.
Which is why i am quite confused about it.
The conservative party and economic literacy don't really go hand in hand
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
I just saw the video out of Georgia on the news. Absolutely chilling. I would say that there’s no way they’ll get away with it but then again, it’s the south.
Several EU countries (Spain, France, Italy, UK) have seen in excess of 1K deaths a day related to Corona. When you consider that the USA is many many many times bigger than even all four of those combined, its a very believable number. If anything based on the EU numbers its actually low at present. Potentially 1K deaths per state could be a valid figure. Though with the way its rolling over the USA chances are you "shouldn't" get that, instead you'd see it as a staggered effect as some states move through the curve of first infections at different rates.
The real risk is that with several states already opening up you might start to see second waves even before other states finish their first.
In short - yeah its scary that's why the world is going nuts over it.
I seem to recall Italy in its darkest days was about 950 deaths per day. Did it go above 1,000 at some point?
I was talking about Italy. I think everyone understands the US is the epicentre now. Seems like about one third of all cases in the world of COVID are in the States right now.
I was replying to your first post where you said Americans, just to get is on the same page.
ingtaer wrote: The NZ lockdown has been challenged in the courts here as two men tried suing the PM, Health Minister and the Director of Civil Defence Emergency Management for illegal detainment. Their appeal was unsuccessful (due to the fact that they tried to have it heard as a case of habeas corpus) but it has raised the issue in the courts as to the overall legality of the situation.
NZ has now had 21 fatalities (with the most recent being in the same nursing home that has seen eleven others dead) and only two new cases reported today and our cabinet will be looking at further easing restrictions on the 11th May. The new restrictions will allow most business to reopen, travel outside of ones region and larger gatherings (100 people indoors, 500 people outside). So pretty much life as normal.
This sounds like a case where you really can do contact tracing and targetted quarantines.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: The government cant support everyone forever (As I have stated before) but a better way of accomplishing this goal would be to allow people to work again.
Literally no one ever has expressed the idea the government, any government, should be supporting everyone forever.
However, it's possible they can make it worse by re-opening the economy, leading to a second wave of deaths, leading to even bigger economic impacts. This is what a non-grossly-misrepresented example of the other side's argument is.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/06 10:36:41
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Is he actually able/planning to do this or was his mouth just running at an interview? Because Trump strikes me as the kind who tends to not really go into things with a long plan and instead tends to just say what's at the front of his mind or what he thinks people want to hear in the interview he's giving. Election year or not I can't see how he can make such claims and have it actually go through the system. It strikes me a bit like many of his claims and comments; a running series of words that aren't really supposed to end up policy.
As for UK payments, the tricky time is between lockdowns. When some of the population might well return to work, but might also be getting government payouts. It's a nightmare in terms of administration to keep up with people; remove abusers of the system; avoid confusion and attempt to manage it so that you're not paying people whilst they are also taking their full wage. If anything people are less likely to want payments to continue compared to companies. A company taking less for months might well want government to keep paying out for longer so the company can save money even once they start earning in order to cover built up debt and loss of earnings over the time they've been shut down.
Wisconsin's Safe-at-Home policies are also being challenged in the State Supreme Court.
Of course, there is also a lot of astro-turfing involved with the case as well, and political gamesmanship since WI is a swing state, that recently had a big election where the Governor (and the Cabinet) switch from R to D.
This Virus and the response is just another political football.
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Hm, I feel I made my position unclear. I meant it in the sense of 'US news is bad enough already, one can spare themselves needless torment by ignoring the worst parts.'
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other (very related) news, several of the right-wing papers are pushing a leaked story about the chancellor planning to cut furlough pay very soon to 'wean' those who're 'addicted' to it off. To 60% then further incremental drops afterwards.
So that's us headed quickly for the 'people receiving financial support during a pandemic are just benefits scroungers' narrative much quicker than expected.
I mean, by all means debate the ammount of social security payments and programms, allways do so, but in such a scenario isn't that like killing off another chunk of custommers for the economy and that's definetly not the time to throw out the remaining custommer base out the window.
Also in general there are very few people actually addicted to such payments so this is just questionable at best.
It could be very different in other countries, but in the US that is a pretty significant issue. I'm an essential worker who makes less than people do on unemployment and I have no hazard pay. Due to the limitations on unemployment, I cannot quit/leave because I live at home to take care of my high risk parents. The second I do that, I no longer qualify for unemployment. So other than a sense of patriotism or duty, what incentive is there to go back into work where its higher risk, lower pay, and disqualifies you from unemployment checks going forward? Addiction isn't the right term, but there are definitely incentives for staying off the workforce if unemployment is the more profitable option.
possible easing of lockdowns from monday in the uk. this is excellent news. lockdowners have had their turn, now we can see what happens if measures are relaxed.
I just hope they don't come out with some bs like you can have 5 mandated visitors allowed in your house or some other nonsense like that.
I'd like to see outdoor spaces (gyms, parks, play areas) re open somewhat, restrictions on movement, leaving the home and staying outside the home removed, aswell as the silly police powers. maybe allow nurseries and infant schools to return too. one can hope.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/06 14:57:56
I’m a little uneasy with the easing of restrictions. Mostly because there’s a certain crowd who’ll take any easing as ‘ah, that’s it all over then’ and just go straight back to normal. But they have to come eventually.
The latest Private Eye has a list of the big British companies owned by multi-millionaires who live in tax havens which are claiming a ton of money to furlough workers and so on.
Of course the government money is needed by those workers, it's just a pity the owners aren't paying into the system.
I’m glad you raised that point. As an unashamed capitalist, I despise that crowd. There’s only one word to describe them; parasites. Capital, money, is the grease needed to keep the wheels turning. A consumer based economy only works when there’s plenty of consuming going on. Those who take all that money out of the system to hoard in their big pile, like Smaug with a heart condition, wreck it all. Without that money the whole thing grinds to a halt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/06 16:00:26
Future War Cultist wrote: I’m glad you raised that point. As an unashamed capitalist, I despise that crowd. There’s only one word to describe them; parasites. Capital, money, is the grease needed to keep the wheels turning. A consumer based economy only works when there’s plenty of consuming going on. Those who take all that money out of the system to hoard in their big pile wreck it all. Without that money the whole thing grinds to a halt.
Sadly that is the capitalism endgame unless it can be curtailed with socialism and regulations upon the free market to block such movement of capital.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/06 16:04:48
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Future War Cultist wrote: I’m glad you raised that point. As an unashamed capitalist, I despise that crowd. There’s only one word to describe them; parasites. Capital, money, is the grease needed to keep the wheels turning. A consumer based economy only works when there’s plenty of consuming going on. Those who take all that money out of the system to hoard in their big pile, like Smaug with a heart condition, wreck it all. Without that money the whole thing grinds to a halt.
Which is why it's unsustainable and will eventually crash and boom and die anyway
Azreal13 wrote: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" - Aristotle.
The issue isn't whether or not that the argument is worth considering, the issue is people decide on whether they agree with the argument based on who is advancing it.
The thing is, some people have such horrid, horrible, damaging and in some cases, deadly, beliefs, that they are not worth considering.
For an extreme example, killing homosexuals. Why should i even entertain that idea or put myself in their shoes?
For a less extreme, belief in climate change denial, Its such a proven thing, that people who deny it, should be laughed off the stage of the world.
You dont need to put yourself in someone elses shoes qall thr time, infact I would say most of the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt Swain wrote: One side effect of the corona lockdown is that a lot of single guys used to going out or ordering in now have to fend for themselves.
This has resulted in a big spike on videogame traffic and tv dinner sales.
So, if you're alone, passing time with video games and living on tv dinners, here's a video for YOU!
Funny, i was kinda one of those guys, I mostly just made sandwiches.
Im using it to learn to cook better, the other day i made homemade veggie burgers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/06 16:43:44
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
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