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RiTides wrote: That's what I don't get, and you see it on full display in this thread:
Folks on the extreme "left" argue that protest gatherings DO NOT spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WILL.
Folks on the extreme "right" argue that protest gatherings DO spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WON'T.
The truth is likely, imo, in the middle - that both are events that could spread the virus. But if we learn that protests don't very much, maybe we can apply that to schools (like outdoor instruction!). And if we learn that they do in a substantial way, of course schools are going to be problematic, no matter what mitigation we take.
Everyone is so entrenched in their ideological foxhole that they cherry pick evidence, to blame what they oppose for the virus and exonerate what they support. It just sucks for any kind of intellectual discussion
RiTides wrote: That's what I don't get, and you see it on full display in this thread:
Folks on the extreme "left" argue that protest gatherings DO NOT spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WILL.
Folks on the extreme "right" argue that protest gatherings DO spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WON'T.
The truth is likely, imo, in the middle - that both are events that could spread the virus. But if we learn that protests don't very much, maybe we can apply that to schools (like outdoor instruction!). And if we learn that they do in a substantial way, of course schools are going to be problematic, no matter what mitigation we take.
Everyone is so entrenched in their ideological foxhole that they cherry pick evidence, to blame what they oppose for the virus and exonerate what they support. It just sucks for any kind of intellectual discussion
This.
Is a strawman.
Nobody on the left is saying that protest gatherings could not be vectors for spreading the virus, just that the BLM protests on the whole do not seem to have initiated a spike as a lot of the cities which saw widespread BLM protests have not seen a corresponding uptick in virus cases in the numbers you would expect. There are multiple possible reasons for this, such as the protests being outside, many of the protesters wearing masks etc.
Compare that to Trump's rally in Tulsa where multiple event organisers, secret service staff and Trump allies tested positive before or following the event. And at that rally Trump campaign staff were removing the stickers on seats which were meant to set up social distancing. Masks were not worn, it was an indoor event, social distancing was not observed.
Then we have locations which are driving headlong into re-opening, for purely political reasons, and seeing a huge surge in cases. Florida is seeing worse numbers now than any state since the beginning of the pandemic, for example. It is still re-opening Disney World.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 13:51:36
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
My daughter did middle school via Online through an accredited online school. I will say that the workload is pretty heavy and it takes discipline and effort to keep up with the load.
In addition, the teachers are responsive when they are asked for help, so use them! Do not try to re-train yourself on subjects you are no longer familiar with and act as a tutor. Just reach out to the online teacher for help.
My daughter was on the A honor roll, but all that being said she pretty much shrugged off most of the work until the final month and did a whole semesters worth of work in one month. She had been the one who asked to go back online. It is east to fall behind and hard to catch up.
When she then transitioned back to normal school in High School, she did not seem to be behind her fellows. She actually finds High School so far to be much easier and with far less workload. She would prefer not to go back to Online school due to this AND social reasons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 13:46:38
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Easy E - Thanks for sharing that. If all kids had parents like you, we'd be in great shape
A Town Called Malus - You just can't have it both ways with this argument. If this is true:
A Town Called Malus wrote: BLM protests on the whole do not seem to have initiated a spike as a lot of the cities which saw widespread BLM protests have not seen a corresponding uptick in virus cases in the numbers you would expect.
There are multiple possible reasons for this, such as the protests being outside, many of the protesters wearing masks etc.
Then we should further investigate the reasons no spike was caused, and try to apply it to schools.
If it's Not true, then we likely should abandon school reopening ideas altogether.
Either extreme is a logical fallacy. I intentionally said "extreme", to avoid painting everyone with the same brush. But if you strongly defend one on the basis of science, and turn around and strongly oppose the other, you are not being intellectually honest.
I was hoping to have a conversation about tradeoffs - for reasonable people who assume both can be risky, the question is how much mitigation can allow us to consider proceeding for the societal benefit (systemic change in policing for one, avoiding learning loss and not widening the education gap between socioeconomic groups for the other). But people are too entrenched to have that discussion and default to political tribalism...
As a parent, I'm just sick of it. I want to talk about how to proceed... not rehash the same damn fight over and over trying to score political points for the election. It's too late in the year to effect what schools, teachers and parents need to figure out now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 14:01:24
gorgon wrote: Um...don't think it's really a secret at this point that being outside is less risk than being indoors without especially good ventilation.
And that holding classes outside with all the students and staff wearing masks and practising social distancing is not viable.
Lets say you have a class of 20 kids. Teacher is at the front, 2 metres away from the front row. Each kid is 2 metres apart from their neighbours. So we end up with a 10m x 8m square of the kids (actually a bit larger as the kids have dimensions of their own). So the kids at the back are 10m away from the teacher and whiteboard etc. The teacher is having to try and clearly project their voice, through a mask and outside, to kids 10m away. And that is assuming that the weather permits them being outside in the first place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 14:09:34
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
So look into outdoor classrooms. Set up tents on the football field. I'm willing to get creative to consider options for not losing 1 1/2 years of school... For many kids, this will be way more detrimental in the long run, especially for at-risk communities.
Edit: Ninja'ed. Obviously it is viable in some places, and likely not in others. But the default is going to have a real negative outcome for many communities. We should be turning over every rock to try to solve this... and likely have a range of options ready to go depending on the viral caseload in the community, and be ready to adapt if things change.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 14:14:44
RiTides wrote: So look into outdoor classrooms. Set up tents on the football field. I'm willing to get creative to consider options for not losing 1 1/2 years of school... For many kids, this will be way more detrimental in the long run, especially for at-risk communities.
A tent is an enclosed space. Unless you have the sides open in which case you are still vulnerable to weather conditions such as wind, cold etc.
Rain on the roof of a tent, for example, is very loud.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 14:10:57
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
The truth is likely, imo, in the middle - that both are events that could spread the virus. But if we learn that protests don't very much, maybe we can apply that to schools (like outdoor instruction!). And if we learn that they do in a substantial way, of course schools are going to be problematic, no matter what mitigation we take.
Outdoor instructions might work in summer but once winter starts...Studying under snow sure is fun.
tneva82 - You're right, of course, but we're in summer now and it's a start. Where I live, it's actually easier to do this in the cooler months.
A Town Called Malus - So because of that, are you just ignoring the achievement gap issue? We know disadvantaged students are going to suffer from online only. What if you make online an option, and offer in-person instruction to a reduced class size as a result?
Just going with the default is ignoring a host of issues and going to be terrible for kids already at risk...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 14:22:03
Sadly, this issue has no great answers. Only a choice between which bad answer you are going to go with.
My local community did discuss using the Football and track area for classrooms as well. However, we soon found that even our small High School ran out of outdoor space really fast.
I have a strong feeling there will be limited grades, and rotational "on" days, and online off-days. Students with the right attitude, at-home structures, and parental involvement will be fine. Everyone else will be at a major disadvantage..... just like now only worse.
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If schools can’t contain cold, flu and head lice outbreaks, how in the feth are they going to contain this?
The only reason that fat bastard is pushing for schools to return is to try and pretend that this whole pandemic isn’t happening and to boost his election chances. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.
RiTides wrote: tneva82 - You're right, of course, but we're in summer now and it's a start. Where I live, it's actually easier to do this in the cooler months.
A Town Called Malus - So because of that, are you just ignoring the achievement gap issue? We know disadvantaged students are going to suffer from online only. What if you make online an option, and offer in-person instruction to a reduced class size as a result?
Just going with the default is ignoring a host of issues and going to be terrible for kids already at risk...
We may need to face up to the possibility that there's no good answer to this problem, sadly. In Scotland, for example, we've been taking a very cautious approach tot he virus and re-opening (some might say too cautious since we're currently sitting at 2 confirmed CV deaths in the last 7 days and about 700 confirmed infected in the population as a whole). Yet in schools the approach is basically ignore any CV problems, hope they've gone away by mid-August and go back to teaching as normal. That's after the initial plans for hybrid teaching or socially distanced attendance were criticised as being unworkable.
The problem is, even with a mix of in-person and online learning, you still need a teacher to be on hand at some point to teach the kids online. So, assuming you can adequately identify the disadvantaged kids, get them to the school and not annoy the parents of the kids who aren't going to be getting face-to-face teaching, you're still looking at needing a lot of extra time from teachers and I'm not sure that's really going to be the best thing for the quality of their teaching. The whole reason the UK seems to have changed its approach and gone with regular teaching from next academic year is because the logistics of doing anything else simply don't work and the prospect of doing hybrid/online teaching for a long period of time once the kids return was seen as a non-starter.
The truth is likely, imo, in the middle - that both are events that could spread the virus. But if we learn that protests don't very much, maybe we can apply that to schools (like outdoor instruction!). And if we learn that they do in a substantial way, of course schools are going to be problematic, no matter what mitigation we take.
Outdoor instructions might work in summer but once winter starts...Studying under snow sure is fun.
And that all depends on where you are. Here in Texas, trying to hold classes outside is a definite NO until at least October, if not November, due to the heat.
My wife's a teacher, and she and her school are still trying to figure out what to do as guidelines and directives change weekly. How do you handle science class and any sort of hands-on labwork? How do you spread kids out in classrooms that were already at capacity? How do you even handle all of the changes to how the school even functions with moving kids in and out of the school and the classrooms? All of the things that were routine are now thrown out the window and have to be rethought, without any extra space or additional personnel to work with.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Easy E and Slipspace - You're probably right, there's no good answer
FWC - I honestly do not care what you-know-who is on about. I care about my kids and the kids in my community. And I'm looking for solutions... but maybe there just aren't any that address all the needs. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though...
Honestly the only safe way I could see running schools would be to spend a vast amount of money and have them all boarding. Students and staff.
Students are removed from the home and thus are not a threat to industry; teachers and students are kept isolated thus if an outbreak does occur they are already lock down capable and if outbreaks happen at work or homes then it doesn't affect the school. You reduce the number of spikes to either once a term (3 times a year) once every half term (6 times a year) or once every year (one full school year).
This isn't even alien to us, there were many boarding schools that used to do just that. Of course the problem today is many are in inner urban areas without room to even put up tents let alone the rest of the required infrastructure. Even if we cracked on with it at the start of the pandemic it would be hard to rebuild the school system en-mass like that. China might be able to do it; I don't think the UK could afford it nor have the right building infrastructure in place. One thing we have to remember is that China is good with insane emergancy building because they are currently insane with building in general - they've got the whole infrastructure there to build fast and on a large scale. It just needs funding and redirection.
Anyway that would be one suggestion - boarding schools.
RiTides wrote: tneva82 - You're right, of course, but we're in summer now and it's a start. Where I live, it's actually easier to do this in the cooler months.
A Town Called Malus - So because of that, are you just ignoring the achievement gap issue? We know disadvantaged students are going to suffer from online only. What if you make online an option, and offer in-person instruction to a reduced class size as a result?
Just going with the default is ignoring a host of issues and going to be terrible for kids already at risk...
Forget snow. What happens when it rains?-) books and water do not mix well.
RiTides wrote: tneva82 - You're right, of course, but we're in summer now and it's a start. Where I live, it's actually easier to do this in the cooler months.
A Town Called Malus - So because of that, are you just ignoring the achievement gap issue? We know disadvantaged students are going to suffer from online only. What if you make online an option, and offer in-person instruction to a reduced class size as a result?
Just going with the default is ignoring a host of issues and going to be terrible for kids already at risk...
Forget snow. What happens when it rains?-) books and water do not mix well.
Forget rain, what about Terrain.
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RiTides wrote: That's what I don't get, and you see it on full display in this thread:
Folks on the extreme "left" argue that protest gatherings DO NOT spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WILL.
Folks on the extreme "right" argue that protest gatherings DO spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WON'T.
The truth is likely, imo, in the middle - that both are events that could spread the virus. But if we learn that protests don't very much, maybe we can apply that to schools (like outdoor instruction!). And if we learn that they do in a substantial way, of course schools are going to be problematic, no matter what mitigation we take.
Everyone is so entrenched in their ideological foxhole that they cherry pick evidence, to blame what they oppose for the virus and exonerate what they support. It just sucks for any kind of intellectual discussion
What I don't get and you see it on full display here, is the desire to make this a left/right issue.
It's not a left/right issue. It's a common sense/morons issue, and it's still not partisan. There are people on both sides of the political line who don't want schools to reopen because they're afraid it'll be a disaster and there are people on both sides of the political line who can probably figure out the very obvious reasons the Anti-Lockdown and BLM protests didn't cause infection to spread. Left and right are not the problem. The problem is populist leadership in a particular subset of executive officials who are at this point undeniably detached from reality and completely incapable of viewing the world through anything but an electoral lens.
And the sad part is how this entire disaster (at least in the US) has done nothing but highlight long standing societal grievances and point to how they're real problems and rather than talking about how tackle those problems for the present and the future, we mostly have to deal with the mind boggling reality that there are people like the governor of Georgia who has been watching the virus resurge in a few states and decided to shackle others and ban any requiring of wearing masks. But no, 'both sides are bad'. That's the lesson some people are apparently concerned with and I find nothing intellectual about it and personally feel rather shackled myself that it's still the banner standard people are hiding behind because they're afraid of taking sides and pointing at the obvious problem that's plain for all to see.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 15:23:53
RiTides wrote: That's what I don't get, and you see it on full display in this thread:
Folks on the extreme "left" argue that protest gatherings DO NOT spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WILL.
Folks on the extreme "right" argue that protest gatherings DO spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WON'T.
The truth is likely, imo, in the middle - that both are events that could spread the virus. But if we learn that protests don't very much, maybe we can apply that to schools (like outdoor instruction!). And if we learn that they do in a substantial way, of course schools are going to be problematic, no matter what mitigation we take.
Everyone is so entrenched in their ideological foxhole that they cherry pick evidence, to blame what they oppose for the virus and exonerate what they support. It just sucks for any kind of intellectual discussion
This.
Is a strawman.
Nobody on the left is saying that protest gatherings could not be vectors for spreading the virus, just that the BLM protests on the whole do not seem to have initiated a spike as a lot of the cities which saw widespread BLM protests have not seen a corresponding uptick in virus cases in the numbers you would expect. There are multiple possible reasons for this, such as the protests being outside, many of the protesters wearing masks etc.
Compare that to Trump's rally in Tulsa where multiple event organisers, secret service staff and Trump allies tested positive before or following the event. And at that rally Trump campaign staff were removing the stickers on seats which were meant to set up social distancing. Masks were not worn, it was an indoor event, social distancing was not observed.
Then we have locations which are driving headlong into re-opening, for purely political reasons, and seeing a huge surge in cases. Florida is seeing worse numbers now than any state since the beginning of the pandemic, for example. It is still re-opening Disney World.
So the following videos showing protests in which not everyone is wearing a mask or exercising social distancing aren't causing spikes in the spread of covid19? Because if these behaviors aren't triggering meaningful spikes then mask wearing is effective enough for us to reopen businesses and schools. The most plausible explanation I can come up with is that increase in cases in CA and GA are fueled more by all the people not participating in the protests being extremely lax in taking any preventative measures. Maybe that's true, maybe people are being more conscientious about protecting themselves when they decide to go to protests but they're much more relaxed and lazy about maintaining those measures during normal routines.
Even if that's the case I still don't understand having the mayor of our largest city going on CNN and explaining that parades, concerts and other mass gatherings are cancelled/forbidden at least until September but political protests will be allowed because we live in historic times. I don't see how medical science could support that policy. If there is no way to make parades and outdoor concerts safe enough to go on without creating a public health hazard how can it be possible for large political protests to not cause a public health hazard? This is exactly the type of inconsistent messaging that makes it easy for people to get confused and to rationalize not taking preventative measures seriously.
We aren't getting enough clarity on the situation from officials and not enough people seem to be taking the pandemic seriously. It's either literally life or death or just a nuisance. Earlier this month I went up to VA to visit my parents because I haven't seen them since the pandemic started and VA is now on phase 3 so I went up to check on them. They live near the beach and I saw cars from Ohio, PA, GA, and NC going to the beach. Since it's phase 3 few people were wearing masks, pretty much only in stores and plenty of people wore them incorrectly. The beach was packed and people were generally acting as if there wasn't a pandemic at all. I'm thankful my parents are healthy and taking precautions but it was also crazy seeing people ignoring the pandemic.
Here in NC we're becoming more stringent as cases tick up but today I got a FEDEX delivery and the driver wasn't wearing gloves or a mask. I also received an Amazon delivery and there were 2 guys with the truck, both wore gloves but only one wore a mask. We're trying to teach our kids to continue to maintain social distancing when they're outside with other neighborhood kids but so many people that we end up interacting with seem to be oblivious to the pandemic.
Overread wrote: Anyway that would be one suggestion - boarding schools.
I could see it working in a place that already has them. Less son in any country where it's far from the norm. The US doesn't have lots of boarding schools.
Realistically, I wonder if the answer is the same as the one we're likely to get from workplaces. How much of education actually required kids to be in a classroom? It's the digital age and over here we're still operating on an education system predominantly designed for the needs of rural America 100 years ago.
Especially in the US there's too much of a habit of treating school like daycare rather than education. Kids going to school is integral to how the labor force is organized in subtle ways (no need for a sitter or anything with the kids off at class). But especially with the absolutely refusal of the electorate to make education an issue of significance in practice, I wonder if there's simply a need to redesign how education works. Having class outside is... Well that's kind of not happening given the logistical issues like those mentioned above. The education system for K-12 has been flimsy for a long time now, both in terms of meeting the needs of students and achieving the goals we supposedly want from the system. Maybe parents should finally stop expecting teachers to be a full service job* and let them be educators. Is there a more holistic model for education that is less reliant on sitting kids in front of a board for hours and generally punting their needs to someone else from all sides? Do we really need kids to be in physical schools?
*I would argue teachers are a lot like police. Everyone expects them to handle fething everything and it is kind of unfair how "everything" has become their job description.
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We aren't getting enough clarity on the situation from officials and not enough people seem to be taking the pandemic seriously. It's either literally life or death or just a nuisance. Earlier this month I went up to VA to visit my parents because I haven't seen them since the pandemic started and VA is now on phase 3 so I went up to check on them. They live near the beach and I saw cars from Ohio, PA, GA, and NC going to the beach. Since it's phase 3 few people were wearing masks, pretty much only in stores and plenty of people wore them incorrectly. The beach was packed and people were generally acting as if there wasn't a pandemic at all. I'm thankful my parents are healthy and taking precautions but it was also crazy seeing people ignoring the pandemic.
Living in VA myself, I've been kind of mind blown by how many people are wearing masks, especially because I live in the heart of what we could call 'Trump country'. The implementation of basic safety and sense has definitely been scatter shot across states and regions and I suspect resurgences in some states hinged a lot on particular mixes of behaviors. Bars have been heavily linked not just in the US but in Europe to resurgences in infection. I find it kind of bizarre that even as the news was talking about concerns that the virus was airborne last week, outside isn't really where infections are spreading. They've been spreading at parties, bars, and other mass gatherings in enclosed spaces. EDIT: Maybe. The failure to test shadow lingers over all of this, and we might soon have no data at all with how tracking infections is being hijacked by political appointees.
New York I suspect has a distinct aversion. Remember when the morgues were overflowing and they were just burning bodies to fight back the virus? Texas might be heading that way now. I think places that have already endured mass outbreaks have a very different attitude on things than the places that were just hearing about it on the news.
I suspect your right, and we're past the point of needing anything like a full lockdown. Or at least we would be, if we didn't have all the yahoos going to 'Covid parties' and people running around being general donkey-caves with their own health and the health of others. Suppose if nothing else, it'll be a great example the next time I have to explain the HIV epidemic to someone cause it's basically the same tragedy.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 15:52:50
RiTides wrote: tneva82 - You're right, of course, but we're in summer now and it's a start. Where I live, it's actually easier to do this in the cooler months.
A Town Called Malus - So because of that, are you just ignoring the achievement gap issue? We know disadvantaged students are going to suffer from online only. What if you make online an option, and offer in-person instruction to a reduced class size as a result?
Just going with the default is ignoring a host of issues and going to be terrible for kids already at risk...
Forget snow. What happens when it rains?-) books and water do not mix well.
Forget rain, what about Terrain.
Well if we're doing in person instruction we'd have to use TLOS and obviously elementary age children would only be height 1 and we'd have to work out mixed height groups in middle school but could probably upgrade all High School students to height 2. If all students have laptops teachers would be able use indirect fire via Zoom or Google Classroom. Of course if every student has a laptop they'd have to make their internet connectivity saving throw at the beginning of each lesson. Each school will have an Internet Strength value that would degrade over time if over 50% of the students were logged in each turn. The negative moral modifiers of wearing masks and social distancing would impact the students' Engagement rolls so unless your teacher has a very high Instructional Skill you'll need to spend CP on Research Based Strategems. Hopefully you make all of your infection saving throws because failing even one will trigger the Inquisition to declare Exterminatus and end the game.
The school issue is a pretty big disaster waiting to happen, even if the younger children are fairly unlikely to suffer badly from or pass on the virus getting them into schools sets up loads of parents to gather in groups while delivering them
(and I don't believe they'll behave well while doing so, after all despite all the requests far too many rock up in cars, clog up roads, keep their engines running etc despite many, many requests not to do so)
and by the time you get to older teenagers they pretty much do seem to get and transmit it at the same rate as 'adults', although their symptoms do seem to be on the milder end
but I guess in the same way that we're asking people to go back to work (or to remain at work if they're in health/food production etc) people are just going to have to take their chances and hope a vaccine shows up fast
Englands school reopening plan for September isn't even going to ask a class/teacher to lock down if somebody tests positive, only if wo different positive tests come back in a week? (not sure of the time frame) which says to me they know there are going to be a bunch of positive tests
I really don't see how much can be done to make it much safer, other than having loads of hand wash stations (foot operated), tons of extra cleaning (if they get some extra money, nothings been said so far)
social distancing just isn't practical in most schools in the UK and once you distance you need 2-3 times the number of teachers at minimum as the class will need to split into 2-3 rooms, although if you go for old fashioned lecture style teaching a video screen might work with an less well trained live assistant to maintain discipline
If a family has a high risk member or members and kids I wonder if one or the other shouldn't move out to friends/family to give a high risk mixed household and a lower risk mixed household? but that's fraught with all sorts of difficulties
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 16:11:52
LordofHats - I actually agree with you, and sorry if my post came off too polarizing in itself, in an effort to point out things that were too polarizing! Lol
I just want to leave the partisan bickering at the door, and focus on the school problem and solutions to it. Not what you-know-who said. Not what protestors should or shouldn't have done. Just what we can learn from the data we have, and how we can most effectively move forward in teaching our kids.
On balance, for me that does not result in online only instruction. I understand those who feel that way... but as a parent, I just don't. We're fortunate enough that our kids are small, and even if they weren't, we could effectively pull off distance learning. But many families are not in our situation, and the callous dismissing of this need got my ire up.
My apologies for contributing to the bickering problem myself here. Hopefully, we can find solutions!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 16:15:30
Overread wrote: Anyway that would be one suggestion - boarding schools.
I could see it working in a place that already has them. Less son in any country where it's far from the norm. The US doesn't have lots of boarding schools.
Realistically, I wonder if the answer is the same as the one we're likely to get from workplaces. How much of education actually required kids to be in a classroom? It's the digital age and over here we're still operating on an education system predominantly designed for the needs of rural America 100 years ago.
Especially in the US there's too much of a habit of treating school like daycare rather than education. Kids going to school is integral to how the labor force is organized in subtle ways (no need for a sitter or anything with the kids off at class). But especially with the absolutely refusal of the electorate to make education an issue of significance in practice, I wonder if there's simply a need to redesign how education works. Having class outside is... Well that's kind of not happening given the logistical issues like those mentioned above. The education system for K-12 has been flimsy for a long time now, both in terms of meeting the needs of students and achieving the goals we supposedly want from the system. Maybe parents should finally stop expecting teachers to be a full service job* and let them be educators. Is there a more holistic model for education that is less reliant on sitting kids in front of a board for hours and generally punting their needs to someone else from all sides? Do we really need kids to be in physical schools?
*I would argue teachers are a lot like police. Everyone expects them to handle fething everything and it is kind of unfair how "everything" has become their job description.
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We aren't getting enough clarity on the situation from officials and not enough people seem to be taking the pandemic seriously. It's either literally life or death or just a nuisance. Earlier this month I went up to VA to visit my parents because I haven't seen them since the pandemic started and VA is now on phase 3 so I went up to check on them. They live near the beach and I saw cars from Ohio, PA, GA, and NC going to the beach. Since it's phase 3 few people were wearing masks, pretty much only in stores and plenty of people wore them incorrectly. The beach was packed and people were generally acting as if there wasn't a pandemic at all. I'm thankful my parents are healthy and taking precautions but it was also crazy seeing people ignoring the pandemic.
Living in VA myself, I've been kind of mind blown by how many people are wearing masks, especially because I live in the heart of what we could call 'Trump country'. The implementation of basic safety and sense has definitely been scatter shot across states and regions and I suspect resurgences in some states hinged a lot on particular mixes of behaviors. Bars have been heavily linked not just in the US but in Europe to resurgences in infection. I find it kind of bizarre that even as the news was talking about concerns that the virus was airborne last week, outside isn't really where infections are spreading. They've been spreading at parties, bars, and other mass gatherings in enclosed spaces.
New York I suspect has a distinct aversion. Remember when the morgues were overflowing and they were just burning bodies to fight back the virus? Texas might be heading that way now. I think places that have already endured mass outbreaks have a very different attitude on things than the places that were just hearing about it on the news.
I suspect your right, and we're past the point of needing anything like a full lockdown. Or at least we would be, if we didn't have all the yahoos going to 'Covid parties' and people running around being general donkey-caves with their own health and the health of others. Suppose if nothing else, it'll be a great example the next time I have to explain the HIV epidemic to someone cause it's basically the same tragedy.
The most troubling aspect to me (which I suppose is inevitable given human nature) is that as states ease restrictions on reopening businesses people treat that as an excuse to stop taking precautions instead of maintaining or increasing their focus on preventative measures. It's like people don't understand that the virus isn't going away, some states/municipalities are just doing better at restricting it's spread but as soon as populations get lax on restrictions cases go up. It's like we're in the loop of reducing infections with lockdowns, then easing lockdowns that increase the infections the lockdowns were preventing, then reinstate lockdown measures to reduce infections again, then ease those restrictions once we establish a downward trend which of course reverses the trend back to an increase. It looks like we'll just continue on this pendulum for the next 12-18 months until we hopefully have a vaccine.
Meanwhile we suffer horrific financial consequences as the reality sets in that no help is coming. A third of people struggle with rent/mortgage payments, small businesses fail, over a million people file for unemployment every week, states and municipalities struggle with budget shortfalls from dwindling tax revenue and Congress and the administration do nothing. Governors and mayors keep instituting lockdown restrictions and hoping that things magically get better in a few weeks or months but there's not plan to mitigate the problems that stem from the restrictions.
You're 100% right on the teachers and police analogy. We have underfunded and understaffed schools and ask teachers to do more to make up for it and we have underfunded or nonexistent social, health and education programs and send in the police to deal with the fallout.
Online instruction is the best choice for schools to battle the pandemic but there are real negative consequences to that choice. The achievement gap will widen, struggling and at risk students will fall further behind. Learning gaps are like compound interest they increase over time. We already have too many students that don't have a stable home environment conducive for learning and that don't reach grade level proficiency each year. Most districts dont have resources to help kids back or provide additional instruction to get every student on grade level so kids just get passed on each year ready or not. There's not time built into the schedule to close those gaps. The pandemic is going to cause a lot of students to fall behind and if that's the sacrifice we have to make to keep them alive and healthy then we need a plan to address the fallout.
RiTides wrote: LordofHats - I actually agree with you, and sorry if my post came off too polarizing in itself, in an effort to point out these arguments that were too polarizing! Lol
Meh, I doubt I have to explain that I can be an donkey-cave when I think people are being donkey-caves. Not the first time I've misjudged someone's intent. Won't be the last.
Just what we can learn from the data we have, and how we can most effectively more forward in teaching our kids.
Part of me does wonder if the data is useful (and that is sad). We've had testing problems across the world since this started and when it comes to viruses and infections, it's easy for things to slip notice. It's possible we're all missing something important stemming from testing failures. To which the only practical response is to use the data we have but damn if the circumstances don't cast a long shadow.
On balance, for me that does not result in online only instruction.
I don't know if that's a long term answer either. I'm not sure how a teacher can ensure engagement when kids are miles away at all times. I'm kind of trying to imagine a mixed model in my head. Less time in class, but the time in class is more targeted. Maybe I liked college too much though cause the concept basically reflects the way colleges handle student work loads (you do the work at home and class time is really for more targeted instruction and Q&A). Socialization is important in schooling too and I'm not sure good results can be achieved there without getting kids and teachers together in one place. As an advantage though, it would let teachers more selectively target struggling students who need help and facilitate high achievers with more advanced work that can challenge them. The system would have more flexibility and could switch to 'online only' in crisis situations before switching back to normality in the aftermath.
There might simply be the easier solution of hire more damn teachers, reduce class size, and stop defunding education but I'm skeptical such common sense solutions will suddenly excite people now when they've failed to do so for fifty years. Everyone wants solutions to problems to be 'inventive' these days, or they don't seem to throw any support behind them.
I definitely like a lot of things about the mixed model, and it lends itself well to older students for just the reason you mention - it prepares them for the college model. It also has the benefit, like you say, of letting you quickly switch gears to more in-person or online instruction depending on conditions.
Unfortunately, all of this results in more work for teachers... hiring more and reducing class sizes would be a wonder (and I say that as a former teacher - class size was, by far, the number one factor in how effectively I could teach). But since we're in mid-July, hiring is probably past... the staff schools have already hired is probably all they will have for this next semester at least.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 16:52:25
RiTides wrote: LordofHats - I actually agree with you, and sorry if my post came off too polarizing in itself, in an effort to point out these arguments that were too polarizing! Lol
Meh, I doubt I have to explain that I can be an donkey-cave when I think people are being donkey-caves. Not the first time I've misjudged someone's intent. Won't be the last.
Just what we can learn from the data we have, and how we can most effectively more forward in teaching our kids.
Part of me does wonder if the data is useful (and that is sad). We've had testing problems across the world since this started and when it comes to viruses and infections, it's easy for things to slip notice. It's possible we're all missing something important stemming from testing failures. To which the only practical response is to use the data we have but damn if the circumstances don't cast a long shadow.
On balance, for me that does not result in online only instruction.
I don't know if that's a long term answer either. I'm not sure how a teacher can ensure engagement when kids are miles away at all times. I'm kind of trying to imagine a mixed model in my head. Less time in class, but the time in class is more targeted. Maybe I liked college too much though cause the concept basically reflects the way colleges handle student work loads (you do the work at home and class time is really for more targeted instruction and Q&A). Socialization is important in schooling too and I'm not sure good results can be achieved there without getting kids and teachers together in one place. As an advantage though, it would let teachers more selectively target struggling students who need help and facilitate high achievers with more advanced work that can challenge them. The system would have more flexibility and could switch to 'online only' in crisis situations before switching back to normality in the aftermath.
There might simply be the easier solution of hire more damn teachers, reduce class size, and stop defunding education but I'm skeptical such common sense solutions will suddenly excite people now when they've failed to do so for fifty years. Everyone wants solutions to problems to be 'inventive' these days, or they don't seem to throw any support behind them.
Online education can be effective it's just very difficult to make it effective for everyone or those who need it the most. To have successful outcomes for students via online education we need students to have 3 core things, devices, connectivity and good home environment. School districts should be able to make sure every student has devices and connectivity but that can still be difficult in some places but schools really fix poor home environments for students. If students don't have stability, encouragement and accountability at home it's practically impossible for teachers to create a good environment for them the way that teachers can in physical classrooms. Similar problems are faced with students who need accommodations at school, it's very difficult for teachers to provide those accommodations through a computer screen and not all parents/guardians are capable or willing to provide it. We need two plans, one for students that can and will participate in online learning and one for students that can't or won't. Unfortunately it will likely be difficult to make up that ground with the latter students until the pandemic is over and at that point there'll also be issues of social stigma of students who age wise should be 1 or 2 grades ahead of where they are in terms of proficiency.
The guidelines were non-binding and school districts have all responded by saying they won't be following them. It seems to be nothing but an attempt to score political points. A disgusting attempt, but still. Another example of how shoddy responses to the pandemic have been across different levels of government and in different places. At least these nuts had the sense to leave their stunt a stunt, even if it's now backfiring on them.
The opposite actually happened around here, I think. When the pandemic first started no one wore masks or did social distancing. It's a rural area and you can't park a car without seeing a dozen pick ups with Trump/Pence stickers on the bumpers, so I expecting total disaster. Something happened though cause a bunch of businesses put up signs saying "we are responding to local leadership and requesting that all customers wear masks inside and maintain social distancing." And people freaking did it.
Local leadership around here has flabbergasted me in the past. The politics my county can be well described as 'Good ol'boy' politics. We even have our own county Republican party, distinct from the national Republican party because the area is super insular and it's basically the people who've lived here for generations vs everyone else. Development spreading into the area from Charlottesville, VA is the #1 political drama in county elections. I leave it to the imagination how dumb all that gets. But someone manned the feth up around here, used their brain, and managed to get everyone on board with trying to not die, so kudos to them for that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 17:26:13
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
