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 Ouze wrote:
I think the argument is functionally "How many avoidably dead children are we good with"?

I think Sandy Hook taught us the answer to that.

As long as they are someone else's kids. Grim.



My area has not decided what to do yet, and I have heard many options including partial days, rotating grades, extended hours season, and a classroom/digital combined approach. There has also been talk about doing nothing different.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
We’re seeing what happens when you politicise a virus playing out in front of us.

Indeed.

 Easy E wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I think the argument is functionally "How many avoidably dead children are we good with"?

I think Sandy Hook taught us the answer to that.

As long as they are someone else's kids. Grim.



My area has not decided what to do yet, and I have heard many options including partial days, rotating grades, extended hours season, and a classroom/digital combined approach. There has also been talk about doing nothing different.

Our area is looking into either a "hybrid" system with 2 days a week in the class (the rest at home), full time online learning, or full time homeschooling with support from the district. I am putting both of mine in online schools that are accredited and well established. I don't expect my school district to successfully generate a whole online curriculum in the span of 6 weeks.

Some friends of ours from California received the paperwork to send their kids to school for the next school year and included was a nice waiver to release the school district from any liability if their child dies from COVID. They too are putting their kids in online k-12 schooling.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You know that logging or roofing much more dangerous than being a teacher during corona virus season...those people still go to work because it is their choice and they have to make a living.

What an absolutely inane argument. "No job is really dangerous, as long as it's safer than some of the most dangerous jobs we have"? What do you even say to that?

Maybe people shouldn't have to risk death in a $25,000 a year job so they don't starve in allegedly one of the wealthiest countries in the world?

Roofing and Logging cannot be done without being there
However, Teaching can be done online and has been done online over the last several years.
You are not asking for your freedom to work and make a living.
You are asking the freedom to die.
People should not be afraid of going to work and dying when that wasnt the option before.
Whatr we should be doing is demanding the government do its damn job and handle this.

Missouri came up with the best way to make sure that everyone stays safe: Just have the parents sign an indemnity waiver, so that when their kids die they can't sue the district.

IronWarLeg wrote:

Some friends of ours from California received the paperwork to send their kids to school for the next school year and included was a nice waiver to release the school district from any liability if their child dies from COVID. They too are putting their kids in online k-12 schooling.

Nothing says your kids are safe like a liability waiver

Any UK Dakkites noticed an increase in mask usage yet? The vast majority of our customers are still bare faced, and even some of the few that do cover are not wearing them properly(best one so far this week was an older guy who walked around the shop before coming to the counter, told me what he was after and then put on his mask)

 Laughing Man wrote:
Missouri came up with the best way to make sure that everyone stays safe: Just have the parents sign an indemnity waiver, so that when their kids die they can't sue the district.

Sounds like the free market fixed Corona.


Sigh.

 Ouze wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Missouri came up with the best way to make sure that everyone stays safe: Just have the parents sign an indemnity waiver, so that when their kids die they can't sue the district.

Sounds like the free market fixed Corona.


Sigh.

At that point it would be more humane to let them play russian Roulette....

 Xenomancers wrote:

You know that logging or roofing much more dangerous than being a teacher during corona virus season...those people still go to work because it is their choice and they have to make a living.

A few things to consider:

1) Logging/Roofing didn't just get more dangerous overnight due to a situation beyond your control.

2) Not everyone is a logger nor a roofer. In fact the majority are not in either of those professions nor many others of greater risk.

And yet teachers are far more common and the risk to them grew almost overnight with Corona. You can compare the relative dangers to other industries, but it overlooks that this danger is a new thing that has just appeared. You can bet if logging, roofing or any other industry got magically dangerous overnight that many of the more sensible would be pausing and going. "You know I'm not going to go logging in a hurricane, I'll wait until its over. Sure I won't make money, but I've a greater chance of surviving and being productive when its all over." Rather than taking a serious increase in risk that, even if they survive, they might well have long lasting injuries that might prevent them from working in the long term.

Furthermore the more people who go to work and who return to "normal life" the greater the risk becomes. The very act of trying to push back against Corona makes it stronger. The very act of "giving in" and going into isolation, reducing contact, taking precautions and generally slowing/shutting things down actually weakens its risk factors dramatically. Better yet, as proven by several countries, if you can take enough measures and track and trace you can push things to a point where your greatest risk are those who are fully off-grid and people from other nations. Ergo you actually reach a point where your general population is far safer to go back to work medium to, hopefully, long term .

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There are 6million kids with asthma in the US. The CDC has also been pretty clear that they want maximum safety measures taken and don’t know much about how badly this disease will affect children. Saying “it’s just like the flu” has been shown wrong again and again.

And the VP has been openly saying that "the CDC should not dictate schools opening back up".

It’s a well-known risk in logging that a felled tree may crush your parents and leave your child with long term lung damage that prevents him from living a normal life. And it’s still such a popular profession.

Changing gears a bit - here's why everyone should be masking it up in indoor public spaces. Two hairstylist tested positive after cutting over a hundred clients' hair, and seemingly didn't infect any:

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus/2020/07/15/2-stylists-had-coronavirus-but-wore-masks-and-139-clients-didnt-get-sick/amp

Hopefully this can catch on everywhere, as it really does seem to help lower the chances of infection from public sources.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There are 6million kids with asthma in the US. The CDC has also been pretty clear that they want maximum safety measures taken and don’t know much about how badly this disease will affect children. Saying “it’s just like the flu” has been shown wrong again and again.

And the VP has been openly saying that "the CDC should not dictate schools opening back up".

The VP has a poor history when it comes to health and disease . When he was a governor, his response to a surge in HIV cases was to shut down the only local clinic that did testing, and drag his feet on any measures that might prevent spread.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/03/02/how-mike-pence-made-indianas-hiv-outbreak-worse-118648

That he was put in charge of a major health problem and offers anything resembling advice is... problematic at best.

I caught up on the news cycle and see now why this issue was so polarizing to try to discuss. It's a shame it became political fodder (not here, but in general) as there really are going to be downstream consequences, like an increased education gap, from the full-remote option.

Ah well... not much chance of having a good, honest debate about it with you-know-who weighing in...

 RiTides wrote:
Changing gears a bit - here's why everyone should be masking it up in indoor public spaces. Two hairstylist tested positive after cutting over a hundred clients' hair, and seemingly didn't infect any..

I remember this. The article doesn't mention that the business, on its own accord, had contact information for every client, so that contract tracing could be performed.

Pretty obviously, you can't do this for every indoor (or outdoor) gathering (eg. pubs, sports, rallies, protests). Some businesses (eg. appointments) routinely have contact information, but others do not (eg. stores, restaurants).

****

Specking of contract tracing, contact tracers in NYC were told not to ask CoVid victims if they attended a protest. NYC had a spike in cases in young people in July.
June: https://thepostmillennial.com/deblasio-bans-contact-tracing-protesters-protests-didnt-lead-covid-19-infections
June: https://www.thecity.nyc/coronavirus/2020/6/14/21290963/nyc-covid-19-trackers-skipping-floyd-protest-questions-even-amid-fears-of-new-wave
July: https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/coronavirus-infections-spike-nyc-20-somethings-de-blasio-says
July: https://abc7ny.com/covid-19-spike-ny-coronavirus-in-new-york-cases-news/6295406/
We don't know to what extent, if any, the protests contributed to the spike, since lockdown laws were also relaxed. But it was intentional not to gather data that may have linked the spikes to the protest.

> It's a shame it became political fodder

The above is not to single out the Democratic party, btw.

 ced1106 wrote:
Specking of contract tracing, contact tracers in NYC were told not to ask CoVid victims if they attended a protest. NYC had a spike in cases in young people in July.

If the George Floyd protests had caused a spike in Covid cases, you would have seen a spike in June, not July.

Instead of this:



You would see this:



Lets put aside the political element - that leadership in NYC is pushing mask wearing, and leaderships in other states - like Oklahoma* - are not. NYC saw almost half a million infections and had 32,000 people die within about a month or so due to this. People in NYC are wearing masks because they don't have the luxury of pretending it is a hoax. The reason you didn't see a spike is due to that more than any other factor - the people who had seen polio were the first to line up for vaccines. \


*Although, in a news update dripping with karma, the Governor of Oklahoma tested positive for Covid today. This is someone with great power to directly preserve the lives of his constituents and whom chose not to to score red points. Removed - BrookM

Well, lets look at it this way. My wife is a teacher, and while she and my 5 year old son will be at school this year, my immune-compromized mother will be watching my 3yo daughter.

So if either of my wife or son get sick with C19 at school (the same school) they can easily spread it through my daughter to my 66 year old mother who is recovering from bone cancer, along with my 65yo father.

If I get sick at work, does she have to quarantine from school for at least two weeks? Are those sick days she has to burn? How many times might she have to do that in this coming year?

There's been no apparent spike from the BLM protests in the UK either.

The states that are currently experiencing spikes also don't correlate with states that had mass protests.

Unfortunately those with an agenda to pursue will refuse to believe that. And they sometimes don’t even believe video evidence when presented to them so statistics have no chance.

 Ouze wrote:
*Snip*

It's almost like there's a direct correlation between having morons for leaders and droves of people getting sick and/or dead for no god damn reason whatsoever. It's not even partisan at this point. There are Red and Blue governors in the US who have behaved like thinking beings (Mark DeWine and Scott Wolf just to name two from opposing sides). Then you have the idiots who are telling people not to wear masks, inject bleach (which would still be laughable if it weren't so lethal), and shouting hoax.

For the life of me, the only possible explanation I can come up with is that the libs just want to ruin someone by any means necessary. Yup. That is the only explanation. There is no other possible connection between the resurgence of infections and idiotic leadership.

 Matt Swain wrote:
This....I'm too stunned to even say anything about it.

https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/rush-limbaugh-americans-should-adapt-coronavirus-famous-pioneers-who-had-turn

And thanks to fools like he america is suffering so badly from covid-19


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There are 6million kids with asthma in the US. The CDC has also been pretty clear that they want maximum safety measures taken and don’t know much about how badly this disease will affect children. Saying “it’s just like the flu” has been shown wrong again and again.

And the VP has been openly saying that "the CDC should not dictate schools opening back up".

Yeah well the VP has already shown himself to be totally clueless about viruses and epidemics so him saying that is excelent proof CDC SHOULD be dictating.

What VP says correct answer is opposite.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You know that logging or roofing much more dangerous than being a teacher during corona virus season...those people still go to work because it is their choice and they have to make a living.

 Pacific wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You know that logging or roofing much more dangerous than being a teacher during corona virus season...those people still go to work because it is their choice and they have to make a living.

Annnnddd.. onto the ignore list. What an utterly ridiculous comment to make, I don't even know where to start with it.

i know:

the fact that you have to compare Covid -19 to some of the most dangerous jobs to get a favourable comparison for your position, in a country where worker protection is at best described as rudimentary for a developped country and which will be inevitably filled with the lower class of said society which allready is hit harder disproportionally allready, should make you question some things in said country?


I am sure i could try harder. If anything,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
meanwhile israel has just shown why we should very slowly inch back into normallicy:
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/israel?country=~ISR

 LordofHats wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
*Snip*

It's almost like there's a direct correlation between having morons for leaders and droves of people getting sick and/or dead for no god damn reason whatsoever.

TBF, you stated the reason in the first half of your sentence

Though it does remind me not to let people who didn't vote complain about shutdowns. They threw up their hands and said 'someone else decide!' when it mattered, I'm not going to listen to them complain about the consequences.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Well, lets look at it this way. My wife is a teacher, and while she and my 5 year old son will be at school this year, my immune-compromized mother will be watching my 3yo daughter.

So if either of my wife or son get sick with C19 at school (the same school) they can easily spread it through my daughter to my 66 year old mother who is recovering from bone cancer, along with my 65yo father.

If I get sick at work, does she have to quarantine from school for at least two weeks? Are those sick days she has to burn? How many times might she have to do that in this coming year?

First of all, that's an awful situation.

I share that concern- what happens when one of the students tests positive for COVID 19? Does the school mandate everyone in that classroom quarantine for 2 weeks?

If so... what happens the 2nd, or the 3rd time that year? We're not talking deaths here, just infected enough to test positive. Will it be any less jarring than doing elearning, like they've been doing for a semester, than losing 6 or 8 weeks of education at random to reasonable, safe quarantines?


And when your teachers get sick... who will teach their classes the 2 weeks, to several months it will take them to recover? It was already hard to find substitute teachers.

 Laughing Man wrote:
The states that are currently experiencing spikes also don't correlate with states that had mass protests.

California, Georgia and Minnesota all had spikes in cases this month and they all had large protests last month. California is seeing enough of a steady increase to reinstating lockdown. What is the evidence that shows there’s no link between the increase in cases and the protests in those states? Large gatherings of people are large gatherings of people. I’ve yet to see any research that shows that all of the measures forbidding large crowds aren’t valid precautions against spreading the virus.

That's what I don't get, and you see it on full display in this thread:

Folks on the extreme "left" argue that protest gatherings DO NOT spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WILL.

Folks on the extreme "right" argue that protest gatherings DO spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WON'T.

The truth is likely, imo, in the middle - that both are events that could spread the virus. But if we learn that protests don't very much, maybe we can apply that to schools (like outdoor instruction!). And if we learn that they do in a substantial way, of course schools are going to be problematic, no matter what mitigation we take.

Everyone is so entrenched in their ideological foxhole that they cherry pick evidence, to blame what they oppose for the virus and exonerate what they support. It just sucks for any kind of intellectual discussion

 RiTides wrote:
That's what I don't get, and you see it on full display in this thread:

Folks on the extreme "left" argue that protest gatherings DO NOT spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WILL.

Folks on the extreme "right" argue that protest gatherings DO spread the virus, but that things like opening schools definitely WON'T.

The truth is likely, imo, in the middle - that both are events that could spread the virus. But if we learn that protests don't very much, maybe we can apply that to schools (like outdoor instruction!). And if we learn that they do in a substantial way, of course schools are going to be problematic, no matter what mitigation we take.

Everyone is so entrenched in their ideological foxhole that they cherry pick evidence, to blame what they oppose for the virus and exonerate what they support. It just sucks for any kind of intellectual discussion

it also sucks for the nations as a whole, considering dead and livelong scarred people are less / not productive and a burden in many ways. And even against such an adversary that doesn't care about any politics these same people not realising their folly and still screeching at each other, branding them as the devil in person will only make it worse.