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MiguelFelstone wrote:
This gak with the cannons is never going to end.

Nope, it's the forever argument because math. It's like a political argument.

psipso wrote:
If you were playing against GK and somebody dropped a paladin bomb in the table how would you try to counter it?

Custodes: I'd out run it. The shooting doesn't hurt all that much against 2+/4++, and you only move 5" a turn. Custodes have -2 charge screens too. A caladius tank kills about 2 strike squads a turn, so I'd just kill the rest of the army while you gate every turn. Then I'd just assault the pallies, because their best buff (-1 dmg) only works against shooting.

A lot of armies have enough shooting even with all the buffs to kill 2-3 paladins a turn, and if they do that for a few turns your bomb shrinks really quickly. Remember that everyone is also trying to deal with 4W, T5 2+ models (Centurions) with Transhuman Physiology in cover, so the tech to slow, hinder, or just outright kill those units does exist. So I guess generally the idea would be either hurt it really bad, or kill the rest of the army while you ignore the paladins. If you cant screen it out, outrun it, or kill it; then the Paladin Bomb will definitely wreck your day.

MiguelFelstone wrote:
This gak with the cannons is never going to end.

Which is a good thing. It's good to have a discussion whether or not these few particular niches of the Psycannon outweigh the overall better Power Psilencers have?

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.

I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.

And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296

The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.

This isn't accurate....Not at least base with just the ToC buff and no other buffs;

Psycannon against a 3+ T8 does .66 wounds assuming it doesn't move. Are you giving it 3 damage per shot instead of 2 on ToC?
Lascannon against a 3+ T8 get a wound thru .363 which results in 1.27 average damage
Psilencer against a 3+ T8 sadly only does 1.29 wound per shooting round with no buffs on average with some variance.

Now once you start buffing sure the psycannon gets better but isn't the star performer psilencer is.

.66 wounds is with 1 damage - It is 1.33 with 2 damage. It is also better to buff against this target too. Psycannons do 9.35 damage vs 8 with Psilencers with the +1 str and -1 ap bonus from 2cp stratagem. Psycannons in tide on convergence outperform in every situation vs knights/ rhinos / levithans. Pretty much everything the army struggles at killing with shooting. Psilencers will outperform vs like venoms and warwalkers. Storm bolters do pretty well against these targets though and you should have at least 40 SB in your army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:
This gak with the cannons is never going to end.

Which is a good thing. It's good to have a discussion whether or not these few particular niches of the Psycannon outweigh the overall better Power Psilencers have?

If anything was added to this debate i would agree, but it's the same arguments, the same "maths" you guys are just arguing in circles about the same

Edit: See the post below, and the 5 pages of replies that will follow

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.

I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.

And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296

The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.

This isn't accurate....Not at least base with just the ToC buff and no other buffs;

Psycannon against a 3+ T8 does .66 wounds assuming it doesn't move. Are you giving it 3 damage per shot instead of 2 on ToC?
Lascannon against a 3+ T8 get a wound thru .363 which results in 1.27 average damage
Psilencer against a 3+ T8 sadly only does 1.29 wound per shooting round with no buffs on average with some variance.

Now once you start buffing sure the psycannon gets better but isn't the star performer psilencer is.

.66 wounds is with 1 damage - It is 1.33 with 2 damage. It is also better to buff against this target too. Psycannons do 9.35 damage vs 8 with Psilencers with the +1 str and -1 ap bonus from 2cp stratagem. Psycannons in tide on convergence outperform in every situation vs knights/ rhinos / levithans. Pretty much everything the army struggles at killing with shooting. Psilencers will outperform vs like venoms and warwalkers. Storm bolters do pretty well against these targets though and you should have at least 40 SB in your army.

Sigh, if you're going to use math please use it correctly. 2 Shots*.66(3+BS)=1.32*.5(St8 vs T8)=.66*.5(4+ Save)=.33*2(Damage)=.66

The psilencer base is the best weapon GK have. Hands down. I have no idea what your 9.35 vs 8 is based on so you'd have to expand on that but there is zero chance of psycannons outperforming when souped up psilencers. With psybolt against t8 psilencers do 1.96 (1.30 if you roll a 1 on the damage d3) while psycannons do 1.14. It gets sillier when you add in extra AP from Chaps or reroll to wound from strats or bonuses to hit. Honest to god I'm not sure how people still push the psycannon. It needs base damage 2 to be competitive and it doesn't have it. It's more expensive for less output and less potential output.

Psycannons are heavy 4...

 Hulksmash wrote:


Sigh, if you're going to use math please use it correctly. 2 Shots*.66(3+BS)=1.32*.5(St8 vs T8)=.66*.5(4+ Save)=.33*2(Damage)=.66

Woah let's avoid throwing stones in glass houses now....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Honest to god I'm not sure how people still push the psycannon. It needs base damage 2 to be competitive and it doesn't have it. It's more expensive for less output and less potential output.

Probably because they dont short-changed the psycannon with only 2 shots. Do you still think there's a disservice here for people recommend psycannon's for certain units / enemy targets?

And is there anyone else here who has other "maths" contentions that people are dropping down? Maths is the last thing that should be subjective or have multiple interpretations. One-by-one it can be proven correct or wrong. Just pick the post with the maths - like this recent one here. Redemption's maths hasn't been proven wrong yet.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:What BS3+ Lascannon? Nobody is taking the basic Dread over a Ven Dread.

Stormravens and Land Raiders still exist. But against T7 3+ a BS2 lascannon still doesn't outdamage a BS3 psycannon with ToC.

psipso wrote:Agree. Many times people forget a good point of the good old LC. Range. In 8th edition the capacity to sit behind cover and shoot from a safe distance to whatever you want has value. Especially when you can hide behind LoS.

Oh yes definitely. The major advantage of the lascannon is its range, which the shorter ranged psilencer and psycannon can never achieve. One other advantage is that it's more economical to use a CP to reroll lascannon dice (especially the damage roll) because you get a greater effect for that CP expenditure as everything is packed in that single shot.

But of course you pay for that range with the higher point cost, and that it's result is much more swingy because everything relies on that single shot hitting, wounding, failing a save and rolling good on the damage. The psilencer and psycannons multiple shots make that average damage output more reliable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Simply put, the Ven Dread is the cheapest you'll get.

Cheapest how, exactly?

Hulksmash wrote:Psilencer against a 3+ T8 sadly only does 1.29 wound per shooting round with no buffs on average with some variance.

Not sure how you arrived at 1.29.
Without any buffs:
BS3 Heavy 6 S4 AP- D3 makes 4 hits, 0.66 wounds, 0.22 unsaved wounds, 0.44 damage on average
With ToC:
BS3 Heavy 6 S5 AP- D3+1 makes 4 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.44 unsaved wounds, 1.33 damage on average

MiguelFelstone wrote:This gak with the cannons is never going to end.

The amount of bad math, misinformation and logical fallacies about this is simply mind boggling. I'm really starting to wonder if people aren't just trolling at this point. I mean, if people honestly think they can not only get more psilencers for the same point cost, but then also have points to get Dreadnoughts with that point difference all of a sudden...

 Redemption wrote:
The amount of bad math, misinformation and logical fallacies about this is simply mind boggling. I'm really starting to wonder if people aren't just trolling at this point. I mean, if people honestly think they can not only get more psilencers for the same point cost, but then also have points to get Dreadnoughts with that point difference all of a sudden...

You know what's sad, this was the very first thing i asked for when they were discussing recreating this thread with updated tactica. All i wanted to know was - what the numbers said about the two weapon systems.

The only thing i've learned in five pages is Xeno is almost certainly wrong, whatever it is.

MiguelFelstone wrote:
The only thing i've learned in five pages is Venom is almost certainly wrong, whatever it is.

Venom?

 Redemption wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:
The only thing i've learned in five pages is Venom is almost certainly wrong, whatever it is.

Venom?

Sorry, i black out reading most of his posts, fixed.

Edit: Technically i think they are mini strokes, all i know is a wake up at my desk and i'm angry for some reason.

At this point it doesn’t matter who’s right anymore. Here’s a basic primer on math hammer for those interested:

Mathhammer uses a crude form of “expected value” to arrive at an average result for a given scenario. This is based off the chance of rolling a specific value on a D6; for example rolling a 4+ translates to 3/6 possible outcomes on a die, or .5 “successes”. Probability is multiplicative, so you multiply the successes by each other for the cumulative result. The formula is as follows:

(Number of shots/attacks) x (hit chance) x (wound chance) x (failed saves chance) x (Average damage) x (FNP chance) = number of wounds

Example BS 3+ storm bolter shooting non-Iron Hands space marine, rapid fire:
(4 shots) x (4/6=0.67 hits) x (3/6=0.5 wounds) x (2/6=0.33 failed saves) x (1 dmg) x (6/6 failed FNP cause it’s not there=1) —> 4 x 0.67 x 0.5 x 0.33 = 0.44 wounds.

Now everyone can do their own math and make up their own minds on the subject, prioritizing their own specific matchups of concern.
And we can discuss other items.

My bad. I accept the oopsies I have created. My head got it stuck as a meh autocannon.

It does slightly beat out the psilencer against t7/t8 3+ in most scenarios on a gun for gun but for almost twice the points per equivalent damage (.32dpp vs .18dpp).

Personally I use the psilencer. I want the psycannon to be worth it but find that the even 12pts on my paladin squad makes a difference in fitting my puzzle piece if an army together. I've got 9 heavy weapon slots not on my dreadnought. That's only 27pts in difference BUT that allows me to not drop models and does the damage needed. Additionally when you think of 2 wound models with fnp (thanks ironhands) averaging 3 damage for everything that gets thru means more dead opponents than flat 2 damage.

People want to use them and I can see why but they still are worse point for point than psilencers.

Very long story short, I think the getaway from all this is:

Stormbolters:
+ Gets a big boost now against the right targets when Tide of Convergence and Psybolt Ammo are used
+ Great for clearing chaff
+ Ubiquitous and cheap
- Can only boost a single unit with psybolt
- Units used for alpha strike with psybolt lose firepower linearly, while units with heavy weapons can keep their damage output up longer if you remove the stormbolter models first.
- Will only get you that far

When to take:
- Unless you really can't spare that 2 points on the Librarian or that vehicle, pretty much always take these.
- You want to keep your close combat weapon on a non-terminator model.

When not to take:
- When you want to take a heavy weapon instead.

Ideal units:
10 man Strike Knight, Interceptor or Purifier squads with 10 stormbolters for Psybolt Ammo + Tide of Convergence barrages.

Psycannons:
+ Much better now with Tide of Convergence and the reduced point costs
+ Does more damage than a lascannon now with just Tide of Convergence active, so definitely a viable anti-tank weapon now. Gets only better with more buffs.
+ Benefits more from Tide of Convergence than psilencers because S7/8/9 is more meaningful against vehicles than S4/5/6, and gets double damage instead of 33% more.
+ In infantry heavy lists easy to spam due to almost every unit able to take 1-4 and not that expensive points wise.
- Still only 24" range, so you do need to get reasonably close, which can often lead to suffering the -1 to hit from moving.
- If Tide of Convergence isn't active it loses its shine very quickly.

When to take:
- You want to add some reliable anti-tank firepower to your infantry army for T6+ targets.

When not to take:
- You don't intend to use Tide of Convergence very often (or at all)
- You need to squeeze out those last few points
- You don't want to lose the melee weapon on non-terminator infantry.
- You want to take 10 stormbolters for Psybolt ammo

Ideal units:
To take on units you don't intend to buff up much beyond Tide of Convergence, like Paladin Ancients, Brother-Captains or that single heavy weapon in your Strike Knight squads you're mostly taking for filling your Battalion. But also works fine with 4 heavy weapons in Purgation Squads or Paladin bombs if most of your buffs are going elsewhere or are not needed.

Psilencers:
+ When Tide of Convergence is not available (e.g. when using GK as allies) or used, does more damage than psycannons
+ Gains more benefits from buffs like Bring down the Beast, and with the right buffs even outdamages psycannons with ToC
+ Cheap upgrade over stormbolters
+ Still not much worse than psycannons with ToC
+ In infantry heavy lists easy to spam due to almost every unit able to take 1-4 and cheap point cost.
- Those buffs are generally available only to help a single firing unit and/or a single target, and cost lots of CP or expensive characters
- Still only 24" range, so you do need to get reasonably close, which can often lead to suffering the -1 to hit from moving.
- The D3 damage makes it less reliable, can lead to overkill/wasted shots

When to take:
- You don't intend to use Tide of Convergence a lot (or at all)
- You want to have a unit you can buff up to deliver a devastating strike
- You want to shave off a few points to fit something you want over the extra damage of the psycannon

When not to take:
- You can spare a few more points for a psycannon and you're not going to buff this unit up beyond Tide of Convergence
- You don't want to lose the melee weapon on non-terminator infantry.
- You want to take 10 stormbolters for Psybolt ammo

Ideal units:
4 Heavy weapons in a Paladin Bomb or Purgator Squad that you buff with Tide of Convergence, Psychic Onslaught, Invocation of Focus and/or Bring Down the Beast for a single devestating barrage. But you probably don't want more than 1 or two of these units in your army list.

Lascannons
+ Still our best long ranged anti-tank weapon, with double the range of the psycannon and psilencer
+ Is impacted more by the re-roll a single roll stratagem than multishot weapons. Although this also works against it when the opponents rerolls a failed save
- More expensive
- Only available on vehicles
- Damage results are more swingy

When to take:
You want some long ranged firepower to plink away at enemy armour to open up the soft contents before they get into rapid fire and smite range.

When not to take:
You want more a little more bang for your buck and don't mind getting up close and personal.

Ideals units:
Venerable Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders, possibly hiding behind LOS breaking terrain and shooting stuff with Astral Aim.

Smite
+ Basically twice as good now with Tide of Escalation
- Still suffers from short range

When to take:
You're always taking this!

Ideal units:
Lots of MSU, so you get more smites. Add Brother-Captains to give them the much needed range.

Anything I missed?

 greyknight12 wrote:
Here’s a basic primer on math hammer for those interested:

And keep in mind that the average doesn't tell the whole story. For example, a weapon that does 100 mortal wounds once every 10 times you use it, and the other 9 times it does nothing, would technically have an average of 10 damage. But of course this would be very unreliable and if it does work, it has massive overkill. If point costs were the same, I'd rather have a weapon that does 8 damage every time you use it, even though the averages is lower.

Weapons will a depend largely on one or more rolls - like a lascannon because it has only one shot and D6 damage - will be much more 'swingy' in results than something that just throws a fistful of dice. The law of averages will be much more noticable there. But as a lot of people already seem to have trouble understanding simple things like averages, I'll not bore everyone with things like standard deviation and probablity distribution.

 Hulksmash wrote:
It does slightly beat out the psilencer against t7/t8 3+ in most scenarios on a gun for gun but for almost twice the points per equivalent damage (.32dpp vs .18dpp).

As was pointed out previously, comparing just the cost of the weapon isn't a very good comparison - you need to include the cost of the platform. Otherwise frag grenades would score a better dpp than any heavy weapon because they're 0 points. Infinite damage per point!

Take a 17 point Strike Knight (or Purgator or Purifier):
Strike Knight with Psycannon with ToC shooting at T7 3+
21 points for 1.779 damage = 0.085dpp

Strike Knight with Psilencer with ToC shooting at T7 3+
18 points for 1.333 damage = 0.074dpp

That's a ~15% increase of damage per point of the psycannon. And the more expensive the platform, the better the ratio becomes for the psycannon. On paladins this would be 0.036dpp for the psycannon to 0.029dpp for the psilincer; a ~25% dpp increase for the psycannon. And while you can buy 7 Strike Knights with psilencers for every 6 Strike Knights with psycannons, you must also not forget that - depending on the squad - you need to buy 1-4 models with stormbolters to be able to take that extra heavy weapon.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Personally I use the psilencer. I want the psycannon to be worth it but find that the even 12pts on my paladin squad makes a difference in fitting my puzzle piece if an army together. I've got 9 heavy weapon slots not on my dreadnought. That's only 27pts in difference BUT that allows me to not drop models and does the damage needed.

And that's a very valid reason. As shown above, the psycannon is a bit more points efficient when you have ToC, but not in a degree that it's a must-have. The psilencer certainly isn't an unviable weapon now, especially when taking in such a low number or when you don't use ToC. And I'd never go all-psycannon either, I'd probably always take at least one squad with psilencers.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Additionally when you think of 2 wound models with fnp (thanks ironhands) averaging 3 damage for everything that gets thru means more dead opponents than flat 2 damage.

Yeah, against infantry you want stormbolters and psilencers. Aim the psycannons at the T6+ targets.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:
This gak with the cannons is never going to end.

Which is a good thing. It's good to have a discussion whether or not these few particular niches of the Psycannon outweigh the overall better Power Psilencers have?

I'm just loving that, for the first time since I started 40k, there's a legit debate as to which is better. It had always been very clearly one or the other in the past. Now, we have OPTIONS! I'm just loving it.

To get back on Tactics - One thing I'd like to add, that an Iron Hands player just taught me the hard way: Use the Paladin Bomb as early and aggressively as possible; situationally as needed, obviously.


I ended up saving my 10-man paly bomb for turn three, mostly due to my opponents extensive backfield coverage, and I regret it immensely.

By the time they came in most of my army was in shambles. Partly it was the fact that my IH opponent had 19 lascannons that ignored movement penalties, re-rolled 1's to hit and had an additional -1 AP due to Dev Doct; but I digress...(freaking IH...)...but I'm not too bitter about IH...>.<...

When I brought them in I dropped them on the center objective and now that I've experienced it I am a believer in how tough they actually can be.

At that point I was stuck in Tide of Shadow (dead characters couldn't change Tides), had Sanctuary cast on them and used both the Transhuman Strat and the -1 dmg Strat.

My opp fired just about every remaining gun in his army (~1700pts left by his turn 3 shooting) at them and still 1 out of the 10 survived with 2 wounds remaining.

My next game I'm going to try deploying the Paly Bomb on the board, in range of a Chaplain (Litany of Faith), cast Sanctuary on themselves and have a psyker use Armoured Resilience (-1 dmg) before one of my SS uses Gate on them. Get them up close and personal Turn 1.

 Redemption wrote:
Very long story short, I think the getaway from all this is: Redemption is the real hero

fixed that for ya

1997 points best theoretical list I can come up with. Help me out before I spend the next 3 months buying/painting this monstrosity. If anything looks dumb or too gimmicky or just wrong please don't hold back.

3x bats - 17 cp to start with (one extra relic, should get a couple extra CPs during the game so spending 4 cp t1, 8 cp t2 and 6 cp t3 I should be okay)

HQs
BC-Stern - warp shaping
BC -falchions + psycannon - warp shaping (maybe drop for second chappy?)
Chappy - ethereal manip (guidance/projection/focus based on match-up)
Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?)
Libby (Nullifer matrix) - edict+armored resilience
Draigo - Sanct + hammer

Troops
2x 10 man Strikes (storm bolters, 2x warding staves - 8x halbreds)
7x 5 man strikes (storm bolters, 2x staves 3x halberds) - I'd love to squeeze some psi/psy in here but can't find the points.
Worth the hassle to source the halberds? Better load out?

L33ts
Venerable dread - astral + ML + TLC

FA
10 man inceptor squad - halbreds + staves

2x 10 man strikes, draigo and libbys start in DS (worth it to spend CP to DS interceptors depending on alpha of matchup/who goes first?)

T1 Hide and pray stuff survives If target presents throw the interceptors at a target of opportunity t1. If I need to alpha screens start a 10 man strike and GOI + shunt for enough bolters to kill any screens.

T2 libbys come down (unleash psychic hell), make sure I have 2x10 man storm bolter squads and put 40 psi-SB shots into something (psi shoot one in psychic phase, psi-shoot the other in the shooting phase), draigo DS to support and GOI chappy - have to break enemy on this turn or position well for a sneaky t3 (if t1 and t2 whiff I'm done though)

T3 Hopefully I've dealt enough damage to enemy between 24" smites, inner fire + vortex (3 turns of 15ish smites should clear most threats, especially after clearing a lot of chaff with all those storm bolter shots). GOI to objectives if I have to. Either I'm mopping up or trying to put some cagey scheme into motion here (haven't deep struck either of my 10 mans and maybe a character or two, GOI'ing into backfield, praying I've scored enough that when I get tabled in t4 my opponent can't come back).

One strike in the back to screen out the out of LOS ven dread.

Redundant sources of etheral manip and warp shaping just in case one of them gets snipped out or I screw up placement or something. Draigo + smites should take care of any large threats. I'm relying on the smites + libbies to do a lot of the heavy anti-armor lifting (eldar planes being the big bad but with IF running around I don't expect too many "vehicle" lists). With the insane +s to cast the libbies should be able to nuke stuff pretty easy (inner fire + vortex will cause problems).

The list looks really scary. Just the pure smites coming out will wreck whatever I can get in range of.

Not sure what powers to put on strike squads outside of one of each just to have them and then some GOI.
Not sure on the CqC loadout for the boys, I like the warding staves for the added CqC protection and they are cheap, not really relying on melee combat for killing stuff so figured 2 staves + halbreds are fine but if I could find the points could see the switch to falchions.
Out of LOS dread is mainly to kill TFCs and make sure I can pick up a kill 1 t1 by stripping the last couple wounds off of something trying to hide. Maybe I could change this out for something else (second 10 man interceptor squad?)

List seems rather fragile. Against the wrong opponent 65ish t4 marine bodies (regardless of -1 to hit and 2+ save) can be blown away before I get to my turn 2 but I'm not sure the paladin bomb adds much resilience to the list.
I think too many lists have the tech to kill the paladin bomb. You pretty much have to table me to kill all of my threats and even if you kill them after they land the 30 psi-storm bolter shots are pretty sure to get into position and wreck what they need to wreck.

Really relying on characters so out of LOS marine snipers scare me a bit (with a 1+ save and 5 wounds I should be okay for a round or two).

I can't think of a way to add more bodies. I think the offensive output between psi-storm bolters, d2 smites and libby powers will be crazy (can psi-storm bolter 2 10 man units with the edict power when they land t2, I don't know any screens that can eat 80 s5 ap-2 2d shots plus whatever my interceptor squad + rest of my army can put into them t1)

I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.

MiguelFelstone wrote:
I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.

I agree, and the stock BC can be tailored to your needs; not just SB/Sword.

MiguelFelstone wrote:
I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.

I agree. I'd rather a Champion than Stern to be frank. At least Stern is better than Crowe, but that's not saying much.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:
I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.

I agree. I'd rather a Champion than Stern to be frank. At least Stern is better than Crowe, but that's not saying much.

Pump the brakes! Crowe is a great chaff-clearing character. He's the bane of all big squads of T3 scrubs!

 Lord Clinto wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:
I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.

I agree, and the stock BC can be tailored to your needs; not just SB/Sword.

His war gear options are just one of many reasons why he should be forgotten about.

As i said in another post

Stern is terrible, second only to Crowe for worst HQs in the army. His default war gear blows, you can't give him a hammer (+ heavy weapon), he doesn't have Rites of Banishment (that's a big deal) and his special rule is "special" in that "bless your heart" kind of way.

Edit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:
I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.

I agree, and the stock BC can be tailored to your needs; not just SB/Sword.

Also can take a heavy weapon. Which is fantastic with their BS 2+.

 Homeskillet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:
I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.

I agree. I'd rather a Champion than Stern to be frank. At least Stern is better than Crowe, but that's not saying much.

Pump the brakes! Crowe is a great chaff-clearing character. He's the bane of all big squads of T3 scrubs!

Crowe was bad before PA, and not having Rites of Banishment just makes him even worse. I can't see any reason to take him in any list, and i say that thinking the Techmarine wouldn't be too bad with the relic in a vehicle heavy list.

It's a shame, in lore hes a monster.

bananathug wrote:
1997 points best theoretical list I can come up with. Help me out before I spend the next 3 months buying/painting this monstrosity. If anything looks dumb or too gimmicky or just wrong please don't hold back.

3x bats - 17 cp to start with (one extra relic, should get a couple extra CPs during the game so spending 4 cp t1, 8 cp t2 and 6 cp t3 I should be okay)

HQs
BC-Stern - warp shaping
BC -falchions + psycannon - warp shaping (maybe drop for second chappy?)
Chappy - ethereal manip (guidance/projection/focus based on match-up)
Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?)
Libby (Nullifer matrix) - edict+armored resilience
Draigo - Sanct + hammer

Troops
2x 10 man Strikes (storm bolters, 2x warding staves - 8x halbreds)
7x 5 man strikes (storm bolters, 2x staves 3x halberds) - I'd love to squeeze some psi/psy in here but can't find the points.
Worth the hassle to source the halberds? Better load out?

L33ts
Venerable dread - astral + ML + TLC

FA
10 man inceptor squad - halbreds + staves

2x 10 man strikes, draigo and libbys start in DS (worth it to spend CP to DS interceptors depending on alpha of matchup/who goes first?)

T1 Hide and pray stuff survives If target presents throw the interceptors at a target of opportunity t1. If I need to alpha screens start a 10 man strike and GOI + shunt for enough bolters to kill any screens.

T2 libbys come down (unleash psychic hell), make sure I have 2x10 man storm bolter squads and put 40 psi-SB shots into something (psi shoot one in psychic phase, psi-shoot the other in the shooting phase), draigo DS to support and GOI chappy - have to break enemy on this turn or position well for a sneaky t3 (if t1 and t2 whiff I'm done though)

T3 Hopefully I've dealt enough damage to enemy between 24" smites, inner fire + vortex (3 turns of 15ish smites should clear most threats, especially after clearing a lot of chaff with all those storm bolter shots). GOI to objectives if I have to. Either I'm mopping up or trying to put some cagey scheme into motion here (haven't deep struck either of my 10 mans and maybe a character or two, GOI'ing into backfield, praying I've scored enough that when I get tabled in t4 my opponent can't come back).

One strike in the back to screen out the out of LOS ven dread.

Redundant sources of etheral manip and warp shaping just in case one of them gets snipped out or I screw up placement or something. Draigo + smites should take care of any large threats. I'm relying on the smites + libbies to do a lot of the heavy anti-armor lifting (eldar planes being the big bad but with IF running around I don't expect too many "vehicle" lists). With the insane +s to cast the libbies should be able to nuke stuff pretty easy (inner fire + vortex will cause problems).

The list looks really scary. Just the pure smites coming out will wreck whatever I can get in range of.

Not sure what powers to put on strike squads outside of one of each just to have them and then some GOI.
Not sure on the CqC loadout for the boys, I like the warding staves for the added CqC protection and they are cheap, not really relying on melee combat for killing stuff so figured 2 staves + halbreds are fine but if I could find the points could see the switch to falchions.
Out of LOS dread is mainly to kill TFCs and make sure I can pick up a kill 1 t1 by stripping the last couple wounds off of something trying to hide. Maybe I could change this out for something else (second 10 man interceptor squad?)

List seems rather fragile. Against the wrong opponent 65ish t4 marine bodies (regardless of -1 to hit and 2+ save) can be blown away before I get to my turn 2 but I'm not sure the paladin bomb adds much resilience to the list.
I think too many lists have the tech to kill the paladin bomb. You pretty much have to table me to kill all of my threats and even if you kill them after they land the 30 psi-storm bolter shots are pretty sure to get into position and wreck what they need to wreck.

Really relying on characters so out of LOS marine snipers scare me a bit (with a 1+ save and 5 wounds I should be okay for a round or two).

I can't think of a way to add more bodies. I think the offensive output between psi-storm bolters, d2 smites and libby powers will be crazy (can psi-storm bolter 2 10 man units with the edict power when they land t2, I don't know any screens that can eat 80 s5 ap-2 2d shots plus whatever my interceptor squad + rest of my army can put into them t1)

You gotta find the points to give those 7x 5 mans psycannons. You just got to. Drop one of the strikes to 8 man and you've got enough points. Not ideal because you lose some stratagem buffing and anotther potential smite BUT you get 7x heavies which hit as hard as LC in tide of convergence.

Thought Crowe got a bump now that his Daemon Weapon counts as a "Nemesis" Weapon for the purposes of Tides. Last edition he suppressed the daemon and it only counted as a basic ccw.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Thought Crowe got a bump now that his Daemon Weapon counts as a "Nemesis" Weapon for the purposes of Tides. Last edition he suppressed the daemon and it only counted as a basic ccw.

Yeah hes great in a tide you will most likely never use, seriously not having Rites of Banishment is huge (one of the reasons i'm thinking about dropping my relic Ancient).

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

bananathug wrote:
1997 points best theoretical list I can come up with. Help me out before I spend the next 3 months buying/painting this monstrosity. If anything looks dumb or too gimmicky or just wrong please don't hold back.

3x bats - 17 cp to start with (one extra relic, should get a couple extra CPs during the game so spending 4 cp t1, 8 cp t2 and 6 cp t3 I should be okay)

HQs
BC-Stern - warp shaping
BC -falchions + psycannon - warp shaping (maybe drop for second chappy?)
Chappy - ethereal manip (guidance/projection/focus based on match-up)
Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?)
Libby (Nullifer matrix) - edict+armored resilience
Draigo - Sanct + hammer

Troops
2x 10 man Strikes (storm bolters, 2x warding staves - 8x halbreds)
7x 5 man strikes (storm bolters, 2x staves 3x halberds) - I'd love to squeeze some psi/psy in here but can't find the points.
Worth the hassle to source the halberds? Better load out?

L33ts
Venerable dread - astral + ML + TLC

FA
10 man inceptor squad - halbreds + staves

2x 10 man strikes, draigo and libbys start in DS (worth it to spend CP to DS interceptors depending on alpha of matchup/who goes first?)

T1 Hide and pray stuff survives If target presents throw the interceptors at a target of opportunity t1. If I need to alpha screens start a 10 man strike and GOI + shunt for enough bolters to kill any screens.

T2 libbys come down (unleash psychic hell), make sure I have 2x10 man storm bolter squads and put 40 psi-SB shots into something (psi shoot one in psychic phase, psi-shoot the other in the shooting phase), draigo DS to support and GOI chappy - have to break enemy on this turn or position well for a sneaky t3 (if t1 and t2 whiff I'm done though)

T3 Hopefully I've dealt enough damage to enemy between 24" smites, inner fire + vortex (3 turns of 15ish smites should clear most threats, especially after clearing a lot of chaff with all those storm bolter shots). GOI to objectives if I have to. Either I'm mopping up or trying to put some cagey scheme into motion here (haven't deep struck either of my 10 mans and maybe a character or two, GOI'ing into backfield, praying I've scored enough that when I get tabled in t4 my opponent can't come back).

One strike in the back to screen out the out of LOS ven dread.

Redundant sources of etheral manip and warp shaping just in case one of them gets snipped out or I screw up placement or something. Draigo + smites should take care of any large threats. I'm relying on the smites + libbies to do a lot of the heavy anti-armor lifting (eldar planes being the big bad but with IF running around I don't expect too many "vehicle" lists). With the insane +s to cast the libbies should be able to nuke stuff pretty easy (inner fire + vortex will cause problems).

The list looks really scary. Just the pure smites coming out will wreck whatever I can get in range of.

Not sure what powers to put on strike squads outside of one of each just to have them and then some GOI.
Not sure on the CqC loadout for the boys, I like the warding staves for the added CqC protection and they are cheap, not really relying on melee combat for killing stuff so figured 2 staves + halbreds are fine but if I could find the points could see the switch to falchions.
Out of LOS dread is mainly to kill TFCs and make sure I can pick up a kill 1 t1 by stripping the last couple wounds off of something trying to hide. Maybe I could change this out for something else (second 10 man interceptor squad?)

List seems rather fragile. Against the wrong opponent 65ish t4 marine bodies (regardless of -1 to hit and 2+ save) can be blown away before I get to my turn 2 but I'm not sure the paladin bomb adds much resilience to the list.
I think too many lists have the tech to kill the paladin bomb. You pretty much have to table me to kill all of my threats and even if you kill them after they land the 30 psi-storm bolter shots are pretty sure to get into position and wreck what they need to wreck.

Really relying on characters so out of LOS marine snipers scare me a bit (with a 1+ save and 5 wounds I should be okay for a round or two).

I can't think of a way to add more bodies. I think the offensive output between psi-storm bolters, d2 smites and libby powers will be crazy (can psi-storm bolter 2 10 man units with the edict power when they land t2, I don't know any screens that can eat 80 s5 ap-2 2d shots plus whatever my interceptor squad + rest of my army can put into them t1)

You gotta find the points to give those 7x 5 mans psycannons. You just got to. Drop one of the strikes to 8 man and you've got enough points. Not ideal because you lose some stratagem buffing and anotther potential smite BUT you get 7x heavies which hit as hard as LC in tide of convergence.

I wasn't going to reply to the OP but i feel compelled now.


I wouldn't suggest running anything more than the minimum number of Strikes (5man squads). Think about it, for 3 more points per model you could get a Strike that has 12" movement and can blink across the map in a true alpha strike. Both Interceptors and Purgation squads are only a couple of points more and vastly more powerful.

Drop Stern, see above.

Falchions have diminishing returns the more attacks you have (but good on Strikes), and your Brother Captain is a beast (2+ WS 5 attacks on the charge). Give him a hammer.

My suggestion for the points saved by cutting the Strikes is invest in Interceptors, it's pretty easy to just pop the backpack off them if you haven't magnetized them, i think going the maxed out combat squads route would be far more competitive. Interceptors are incredible now. This gives you ~30+ potential mortal wounds per round just in the psyker phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redemption wrote:
Anything I missed?

I would add under the melee weapon section anything with 2+ WS and multiple attacks should be wielding the thunder hammer that only costs 13 points (this includes the GMND)

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Thought Crowe got a bump now that his Daemon Weapon counts as a "Nemesis" Weapon for the purposes of Tides. Last edition he suppressed the daemon and it only counted as a basic ccw.

Yeah hes great in a tide you will most likely never use, seriously not having Rites of Banishment is huge (one of the reasons i'm thinking about dropping my relic Ancient).

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

bananathug wrote:
1997 points best theoretical list I can come up with. Help me out before I spend the next 3 months buying/painting this monstrosity. If anything looks dumb or too gimmicky or just wrong please don't hold back.

3x bats - 17 cp to start with (one extra relic, should get a couple extra CPs during the game so spending 4 cp t1, 8 cp t2 and 6 cp t3 I should be okay)

HQs
BC-Stern - warp shaping
BC -falchions + psycannon - warp shaping (maybe drop for second chappy?)
Chappy - ethereal manip (guidance/projection/focus based on match-up)
Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?)
Libby (Nullifer matrix) - edict+armored resilience
Draigo - Sanct + hammer

Troops
2x 10 man Strikes (storm bolters, 2x warding staves - 8x halbreds)
7x 5 man strikes (storm bolters, 2x staves 3x halberds) - I'd love to squeeze some psi/psy in here but can't find the points.
Worth the hassle to source the halberds? Better load out?

L33ts
Venerable dread - astral + ML + TLC

FA
10 man inceptor squad - halbreds + staves

2x 10 man strikes, draigo and libbys start in DS (worth it to spend CP to DS interceptors depending on alpha of matchup/who goes first?)

T1 Hide and pray stuff survives If target presents throw the interceptors at a target of opportunity t1. If I need to alpha screens start a 10 man strike and GOI + shunt for enough bolters to kill any screens.

T2 libbys come down (unleash psychic hell), make sure I have 2x10 man storm bolter squads and put 40 psi-SB shots into something (psi shoot one in psychic phase, psi-shoot the other in the shooting phase), draigo DS to support and GOI chappy - have to break enemy on this turn or position well for a sneaky t3 (if t1 and t2 whiff I'm done though)

T3 Hopefully I've dealt enough damage to enemy between 24" smites, inner fire + vortex (3 turns of 15ish smites should clear most threats, especially after clearing a lot of chaff with all those storm bolter shots). GOI to objectives if I have to. Either I'm mopping up or trying to put some cagey scheme into motion here (haven't deep struck either of my 10 mans and maybe a character or two, GOI'ing into backfield, praying I've scored enough that when I get tabled in t4 my opponent can't come back).

One strike in the back to screen out the out of LOS ven dread.

Redundant sources of etheral manip and warp shaping just in case one of them gets snipped out or I screw up placement or something. Draigo + smites should take care of any large threats. I'm relying on the smites + libbies to do a lot of the heavy anti-armor lifting (eldar planes being the big bad but with IF running around I don't expect too many "vehicle" lists). With the insane +s to cast the libbies should be able to nuke stuff pretty easy (inner fire + vortex will cause problems).

The list looks really scary. Just the pure smites coming out will wreck whatever I can get in range of.

Not sure what powers to put on strike squads outside of one of each just to have them and then some GOI.
Not sure on the CqC loadout for the boys, I like the warding staves for the added CqC protection and they are cheap, not really relying on melee combat for killing stuff so figured 2 staves + halbreds are fine but if I could find the points could see the switch to falchions.
Out of LOS dread is mainly to kill TFCs and make sure I can pick up a kill 1 t1 by stripping the last couple wounds off of something trying to hide. Maybe I could change this out for something else (second 10 man interceptor squad?)

List seems rather fragile. Against the wrong opponent 65ish t4 marine bodies (regardless of -1 to hit and 2+ save) can be blown away before I get to my turn 2 but I'm not sure the paladin bomb adds much resilience to the list.
I think too many lists have the tech to kill the paladin bomb. You pretty much have to table me to kill all of my threats and even if you kill them after they land the 30 psi-storm bolter shots are pretty sure to get into position and wreck what they need to wreck.

Really relying on characters so out of LOS marine snipers scare me a bit (with a 1+ save and 5 wounds I should be okay for a round or two).

I can't think of a way to add more bodies. I think the offensive output between psi-storm bolters, d2 smites and libby powers will be crazy (can psi-storm bolter 2 10 man units with the edict power when they land t2, I don't know any screens that can eat 80 s5 ap-2 2d shots plus whatever my interceptor squad + rest of my army can put into them t1)

You gotta find the points to give those 7x 5 mans psycannons. You just got to. Drop one of the strikes to 8 man and you've got enough points. Not ideal because you lose some stratagem buffing and anotther potential smite BUT you get 7x heavies which hit as hard as LC in tide of convergence.

I wasn't going to reply to the OP but i feel compelled now.


I wouldn't suggest running anything more than the minimum number of Strikes (5man squads). Think about it, for 3 more points per model you could get a Strike that has 12" movement and can blink across the map in a true alpha strike. Both Interceptors and Purgation squads are only a couple of points more and vastly more powerful.

Drop Stern, see above.

Falchions have diminishing returns the more attacks you have (but good on Strikes), and your Brother Captain is a beast (2+ WS 5 attacks on the charge). Give him a hammer.

My suggestion for the points saved by cutting the Strikes is invest in Interceptors, it's pretty easy to just pop the backpack off them if you haven't magnetized them, i think going the maxed out combat squads route would be far more competitive. Interceptors are incredible now. This gives you ~30+ potential mortal wounds per round just in the psyker phase.

Yeah - strikes are just worse interceptors for the most part which give you more CP. I think 3 battalions is excessive also.
I'd drop a libby and 3 strike squads. Replace that with a 10 man interceptor / trade out stern for another BC with Psycannon and hammers on both of them.