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Is that REALLY much of a difference though?

 Lance845 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Sounds boring

It sounds reasonable. What the hell is the point in having 40 options if only 2 of them are viable?

$$ for GW. Coolness factor for my models. Continued use of models I've all ready got.
Look, if I'm willing to pay for options you consider useless & GW/FW is willing to make, stock, and sell them to me? What's your beef in that process?

ccs wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Sounds boring

It sounds reasonable. What the hell is the point in having 40 options if only 2 of them are viable?

$$ for GW. Coolness factor for my models. Continued use of models I've all ready got.
Look, if I'm willing to pay for options you consider useless & GW/FW is willing to make, stock, and sell them to me? What's your beef in that process?

Mostly that they don't need to be listed as separate options. I mean, do you honestly care that the Power Maul and Lance have rules when the Power Sword and Axe rules basically cover all your bases? If anything, that helps save your conversions from being useless at some point.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Maybe. But maulerfiends and the other dinobots are fething eyesores. Same with the klos. Why would you prefer it over the hellforged super heavys if they had sane prices?

I kind of like them. There's something about the KLoS, too, that just makes me want one. Just the over top top primal nature of it, I guess.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Maybe. But maulerfiends and the other dinobots are fething eyesores. Same with the klos. Why would you prefer it over the hellforged super heavys if they had sane prices?

I kind of like them. There's something about the KLoS, too, that just makes me want one. Just the over top top primal nature of it, I guess.

Primal ain't the word.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Maybe. But maulerfiends and the other dinobots are fething eyesores. Same with the klos. Why would you prefer it over the hellforged super heavys if they had sane prices?

I kind of like them. There's something about the KLoS, too, that just makes me want one. Just the over top top primal nature of it, I guess.

Primal ain't the word.

It is about as Warhammer as you can get. The whole concept has existed since like... 3rd?

ccs wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Sounds boring

It sounds reasonable. What the hell is the point in having 40 options if only 2 of them are viable?

$$ for GW. Coolness factor for my models. Continued use of models I've all ready got.
Look, if I'm willing to pay for options you consider useless & GW/FW is willing to make, stock, and sell them to me? What's your beef in that process?

The neat bit you already have becomes a counts as BLANK. You don't need 5 different power weapon stats. You need a single power weapon profile and then you can model whatever the hell you want on your dudes to look however you want.

My beef is this bloat of units and options is what makes the game impossible to balance and causes disruptions from the rules like people bitch about all the time because the devs can't reference every rule for every crap thing that has ever existed for over 30 years every time they make new stuff. Trim the fat. Make the game functional with a concise good list of options that have a clear design goal and clear direction and synergy instead of cramming every crap thing onto a pile and hoping it looks like anything. Everyones game gets better, including yours, when it's made into a good concise and directed well designed set of units and options with strengths and weaknesses. Not 9 different dread with 2 of them making the other 7 obsolete.

All of which is moot to argue. OBVIOUSLY Primaris are going to, at some point, completely replace old marines. Again, all the old marine bloat will be gone in a single fell swoop when that happens. You have a couple more units (primaris flyer and bikes and melee) and some more chapter specific characters and then the old marines are ripe to get the axe. All those options go straight to legends when it's done. Good riddance.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Maybe. But maulerfiends and the other dinobots are fething eyesores. Same with the klos. Why would you prefer it over the hellforged super heavys if they had sane prices?

I kind of like them. There's something about the KLoS, too, that just makes me want one. Just the over top top primal nature of it, I guess.

Primal ain't the word.

It is about as Warhammer as you can get. The whole concept has existed since like... 3rd?

I am talking about the KLoS, and not the bots, they are okay, but the KLoS, no just no.

Not Online!!! wrote:

I am talking about the KLoS, and not the bots, they are okay, but the KLoS, no just no.

Yea we're referencing the same thing. There's some concept art for it from way back similar to the below. It just tickles my nostalgia bone.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

I am talking about the KLoS, and not the bots, they are okay, but the KLoS, no just no.

Yea we're referencing the same thing. There's some concept art for it from way back similar to the below. It just tickles my nostalgia bone.

Spoiler:

Tbh that thing down there is a Mile off from what we got ,discounting height difference inbetween that Mile off.

Nah - he was in Epic.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nah - he was in Epic.

Where he looked decidedly better

Id really like better titan rules in general and specifically for the Eldar. They've designed to their dollar cost so warlords are way better than phantoms, despite them being much closer in ability.

Id like the Eldar to get more super heavies. How hard is it to make a new turret for the scorpion? Theyve got more dreadnoughts with more complexity than that...

 Lance845 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Sounds boring

It sounds reasonable. What the hell is the point in having 40 options if only 2 of them are viable?

$$ for GW. Coolness factor for my models. Continued use of models I've all ready got.
Look, if I'm willing to pay for options you consider useless & GW/FW is willing to make, stock, and sell them to me? What's your beef in that process?

The neat bit you already have becomes a counts as BLANK. You don't need 5 different power weapon stats. You need a single power weapon profile and then you can model whatever the hell you want on your dudes to look however you want.

Just like you Primaris players don't need every Primaris unit having some different version of a bolt weapon. But yet you have it. And while I think that's pointless I'm not begrudging you all your new bolt-whatsitz.

 Lance845 wrote:
My beef is this bloat of units and options is what makes the game impossible to balance and causes disruptions from the rules like people bitch about all the time because they can't reference every rule for every crap thing that has ever existed for over 30 years every time they make new stuff. Trim the fat. Make the game functional with a concise good list of options have have a clear design goal and clear direction and synergy instead of cramming every crap thing onto a pile and hoping it looks like anything.

I've got bad news for you. They will not manage to achieve this mythical "Balance" you go on about by deleting options that apparently have so little actual play difference that you've decided that there's only 2 viable options out of x.
And, being GW, they won't stop introducing more new things to fill thier pages.

 Lance845 wrote:
game gets better, including yours, when it's made into a good concise and directed well designed set of units and options with strengths and weaknesses.

Including mine huh? Let me consider that for a moment.... Nope. It has never been my experience that my games improved by removing options/units/even whole armies

 Lance845 wrote:
Not 9 different dread with 2 of them making the other 7 obsolete.

Don't know what you're talking about. I got 9 types of Dreads? Great, I've got plenty of options (all of them perfectly viable), my all dread army is functional, AND I don't have to field it the same way each time I run it.
So yeah, I need Chaplain dreads, Character dreads, regular dreads, Venerables, an Ironclad now & then, some contemptor varients, a few Furiosos, some Mortis, Deredeos, my leviathan, even that Primaris one. And soon I'll have a Tellemon. (that's 10 dread types by the way) Just depends upon the day & mood I'm in what I field.

 Lance845 wrote:
All of which is moot to argue. OBVIOUSLY Primaris are going to, at some point, completely replace old marines. Again, all the old marine bloat will be gone in a single fell swoop when that happens. You have a couple more units (primaris flyer and bikes and melee) and some more chapter specific characters and then the old marines are ripe to get the axe. All those options go straight to legends when it's done. Good riddance.

Well that's a good ways off. By the time that happens I'm willing to bet that neither of us will care. I'll likely be dead & you won't be in the game anymore (the never ending imbalance will cause you to quit)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Sounds boring

It sounds reasonable. What the hell is the point in having 40 options if only 2 of them are viable?

Exactly. Options only matter when they make sense. Can you honestly say you'd use a Power Maul for any reason? If they just disappeared as an option you'd just use them as Power Axes. Hell, who cried upon the loss of Power Lance's? Nobody!

*looks at power mauls in sisters* Yep. Still taking them over axes.

If you want to delete stuff delete the axe ;-)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Maybe. But maulerfiends and the other dinobots are fething eyesores. Same with the klos. Why would you prefer it over the hellforged super heavys if they had sane prices?

I kind of like them. There's something about the KLoS, too, that just makes me want one. Just the over top top primal nature of it, I guess.

To each their own I guess. To me it looks like something from the album cover of some boring South American Sodom wannabe thrash band. And it's khorne specific so it doesn't match up well with legions that aren't khorne worshippers or that don't worship chaos period.

Why does gw think everything traitors get needs to be a fething daemon engine? The legions fielding millennia old currupted engines of war sounds so much more scary to me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Can you honestly say you'd use a Power Maul for any reason?

Bloody Rose sister superiors love them-- 3+ S5 AP-2 attacks on the charge is pretty good against most targets. Or are you only referring to Marines? Yeah not much of a point for Marines, but for S3 characters they're really damn useful.

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Can you honestly say you'd use a Power Maul for any reason?

Bloody Rose sister superiors love them-- 3+ S5 AP-2 attacks on the charge is pretty good against most targets. Or are you only referring to Marines? Yeah not much of a point for Marines, but for S3 characters they're really damn useful.

Jup any s3 units Profits from them massively.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Can you honestly say you'd use a Power Maul for any reason?

Bloody Rose sister superiors love them-- 3+ S5 AP-2 attacks on the charge is pretty good against most targets. Or are you only referring to Marines? Yeah not much of a point for Marines, but for S3 characters they're really damn useful.

Jup any s3 units Profits from them massively.

Well the Sisters get their own Relic Blade equivalent, with Legends offering the Eviscerator. Plus not sure why you'd buy a weapon for a Sergeant in the first place. That's like buying Infantry Sergeants a Power Weapon. It doesn't work with the squad anyway.
So that's not an argument I buy, especially when you come up with a specific scenario that's not used.

What's that? Sorry, I must've imagined things, I thought you said "for any reason", but I must have misheard you due to the screeching sound from those goalposts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Can you honestly say you'd use a Power Maul for any reason?

Bloody Rose sister superiors love them-- 3+ S5 AP-2 attacks on the charge is pretty good against most targets. Or are you only referring to Marines? Yeah not much of a point for Marines, but for S3 characters they're really damn useful.

Jup any s3 units Profits from them massively.

Well the Sisters get their own Relic Blade equivalent, with Legends offering the Eviscerator. Plus not sure why you'd buy a weapon for a Sergeant in the first place. That's like buying Infantry Sergeants a Power Weapon. It doesn't work with the squad anyway.
So that's not an argument I buy, especially when you come up with a specific scenario that's not used.

Tell that my mates archon that got beaten into a pulp by a r&h commander with maul.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well the Sisters get their own Relic Blade equivalent

Only on Canonesses, who don't get access to Power Mauls anyway. But I actually tend to equip my main battle canoness with a chainsword, because Beneficence is absurdly and hilariously powerful.

(edit: just to be clear, a Beneficence Canoness has a melee statline of WS2+, S4, AP-3, D2, with 7 attacks and 8 on the charge, rerolling 1s to hit (so essentially rerolling all to-hit rolls), double hits on to-hit rolls of 6, rerolling a charge die and also rerolling to-wound rolls on the charge, and additional ablative wounds from nearby Celestians. if I'm going Bloody Rose, there's no reason I wouldn't take this)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
with Legends offering the Eviscerator.

Even ignoring the Legends issue, superiors can't equip eviscerators.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus not sure why you'd buy a weapon for a Sergeant in the first place.

Bloody Rose sisters gain ap-1 for all attacks in the assault phase, and an additional attack when charged/on the charge. This means those four points nets you 3 S5 AP-2 attacks hitting on WS4+ for Battle Sisters, Dominions, and Retributors. Celestians have all of that, plus they gain an additional attack and their attacks hit on 3+ and all of their to-hit rolls get rerolled if they're near a canoness. This can be further enhanced by strategems, an Imagifier with Tale of the Warrior raising Strength even further, an additional attack from a nearby Missionary or Preacher, additional hits on to-hit rolls of 6 from The Passion, and so on and so forth. And all of this is assisted in damage output by each member of the squad having +1 attack on the charge and -1ap in melee. So they actually do hit a lot harder than guardsmen.

So it's very, very worth it to give Bloody Rose superiors that expect to be up close to the enemy a power maul or power axe, but power mauls are usually better as they provide that crucial S5 against marines. Other Sororitas orders are less likely to equip it, of course, but power mauls are really beneficial to S3 imperial armies.

Intercessors Sargeants with Powerfist are really scary.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What's that? Sorry, I must've imagined things, I thought you said "for any reason", but I must have misheard you due to the screeching sound from those goalposts.

I never moved a goalpost. The entire justification was one particular subfaction for one faction. In their case, the Axe getting AP-3 is still just as good for a S3 model, as nobody is tackling T8 with them anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Can you honestly say you'd use a Power Maul for any reason?

Bloody Rose sister superiors love them-- 3+ S5 AP-2 attacks on the charge is pretty good against most targets. Or are you only referring to Marines? Yeah not much of a point for Marines, but for S3 characters they're really damn useful.

Jup any s3 units Profits from them massively.

Well the Sisters get their own Relic Blade equivalent, with Legends offering the Eviscerator. Plus not sure why you'd buy a weapon for a Sergeant in the first place. That's like buying Infantry Sergeants a Power Weapon. It doesn't work with the squad anyway.
So that's not an argument I buy, especially when you come up with a specific scenario that's not used.

Tell that my mates archon that got beaten into a pulp by a r&h commander with maul.

The axe will literally wound a T3 2++ model at the same rate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well the Sisters get their own Relic Blade equivalent

Only on Canonesses, who don't get access to Power Mauls anyway. But I actually tend to equip my main battle canoness with a chainsword, because Beneficence is absurdly and hilariously powerful.

(edit: just to be clear, a Beneficence Canoness has a melee statline of WS2+, S4, AP-3, D2, with 7 attacks and 8 on the charge, rerolling 1s to hit (so essentially rerolling all to-hit rolls), double hits on to-hit rolls of 6, rerolling a charge die and also rerolling to-wound rolls on the charge, and additional ablative wounds from nearby Celestians. if I'm going Bloody Rose, there's no reason I wouldn't take this)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
with Legends offering the Eviscerator.

Even ignoring the Legends issue, superiors can't equip eviscerators.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus not sure why you'd buy a weapon for a Sergeant in the first place.

Bloody Rose sisters gain ap-1 for all attacks in the assault phase, and an additional attack when charged/on the charge. This means those four points nets you 3 S5 AP-2 attacks hitting on WS4+ for Battle Sisters, Dominions, and Retributors. Celestians have all of that, plus they gain an additional attack and their attacks hit on 3+ and all of their to-hit rolls get rerolled if they're near a canoness. This can be further enhanced by strategems, an Imagifier with Tale of the Warrior raising Strength even further, an additional attack from a nearby Missionary or Preacher, additional hits on to-hit rolls of 6 from The Passion, and so on and so forth. And all of this is assisted in damage output by each member of the squad having +1 attack on the charge and -1ap in melee. So they actually do hit a lot harder than guardsmen.

So it's very, very worth it to give Bloody Rose superiors that expect to be up close to the enemy a power maul or power axe, but power mauls are usually better as they provide that crucial S5 against marines. Other Sororitas orders are less likely to equip it, of course, but power mauls are really beneficial to S3 imperial armies.

Imagine thinking buying melee weapons for an 8 point model that hits on a 4+ is a good idea in any fashion to begin with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Imagine thinking buying melee weapons for an 8 point model that hits on a 4+ is a good idea in any fashion to begin with.

Imagine being so arrogant as to think that your theory outweighs other people's practical experience with their army...

You can buy power weapons for 4pt Guardsmen, and it can be quite effective.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Maybe. But maulerfiends and the other dinobots are fething eyesores. Same with the klos. Why would you prefer it over the hellforged super heavys if they had sane prices?

I kind of like them. There's something about the KLoS, too, that just makes me want one. Just the over top top primal nature of it, I guess.

Absolutely, I gleefully use my horrendous looking Defiler. I'm perfectly fine with my CSM being ripped from a heavy metal album cover, it's what Chaos has always been aiming to be.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Maybe. But maulerfiends and the other dinobots are fething eyesores. Same with the klos. Why would you prefer it over the hellforged super heavys if they had sane prices?

I kind of like them. There's something about the KLoS, too, that just makes me want one. Just the over top top primal nature of it, I guess.

Absolutely, I gleefully use my horrendous looking Defiler. I'm perfectly fine with my CSM being ripped from a heavy metal album cover, it's what Chaos has always been aiming to be.

Depends on what you consider heavy metal. Some of us prefer something on the order of Cause of Death, Lawless Darkness, or Altars of Madness to the cover of random German power metal album number 1457.

Look everyone has their own opinion on how a model looks. But daemonic units don't fit some legion's fluff, Night Lords and Alpha Legion in particular, so it's nice for those of us who care about that to have options. Right now fw is the only option for that because gw have been pushing daemon engines in their plastic line for a while now. So it would be nice if the fw units were at least kept useable.

Ok, having actually looked at the R&H rules now (since my Daemons of Slannesh army could use some cheap objective holders) that set of rules really needs adjusted. That gak makes the pre-PA GK rules look good.

The Newman wrote:
Ok, having actually looked at the R&H rules now (since my Daemons of Slannesh army could use some cheap objective holders) that set of rules really needs adjusted. That gak makes the pre-PA GK rules look good.

Now you know why r&h players are always complaining about gw ignoring us. It's even worse if you see how good the old rules were.

Here's hoping these new books fix the army.