Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let me fix your list:
Characters that can't resurrect > characters that can resurrect.
There it's shorter and more accurate now .
I mean, ask the avatarof khaine, the demon primarchs, the swarmlord and saint celestine if you don't trust me lol.

You can then make subcategories among those two categories, but this is really the main thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Tbf, her whole schtick is dying and coming back. Gotta keep that patented "living saint" name by getting back up after being murdered.

Sabbat was a living Saint too, didn't do that all the time.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sabbat was a living Saint too, didn't do that all the time.

That's because she had a better writer.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yes but in the grand tier of "who has the greatest plot armour, daddy?" we all know that the rankings are as follows; Makari, Cato Sicarius, The Emperor, Loyalist Characters, Chaos Characters, Xenos, Daemons, this brick I found on the floor, Swarmlord, actual literal garbage, Skarbrand.

Fixed.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yes but in the grand tier of "who has the greatest plot armour, daddy?" we all know that the rankings are as follows; Makari, Cato Sicarius, The Emperor, Loyalist Characters, Chaos Characters, Xenos, Daemons, this brick I found on the floor, Swarmlord, actual literal garbage, Skarbrand.

Fixed.

I'm going to make another thread on this topic if there's interest.

We going to see Ghazzy today I wonder?!

I feel he´s more a weekend "trend" news kind of thing.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yes but in the grand tier of "who has the greatest plot armour, daddy?" we all know that the rankings are as follows; Makari, Cato Sicarius, The Emperor, Loyalist Characters, Chaos Characters, Xenos, Daemons, this brick I found on the floor, Swarmlord, actual literal garbage, Skarbrand.

Fixed.

I'm going to make another thread on this topic if there's interest.

We going to see Ghazzy today I wonder?!

I'm betting on seeing him on the 22nd. Since there's a Toy Fair reveal countdown.

Also, how do you. The Avatar of Khaine doesn't deserve to be called "actual literal garbage"

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lumping csm in with loyalists is bullgak.

How about we just refer to all xenos armies as one big faction as well? Would that make sense? (Answer: no it wouldn't).

Why are you getting so sensitive about this? I'm merely stating facts - CSM and SM are the only factions in the game AFAIK that have sub faction specific units and that was my point. I had forgotten about CSM while I was writing my post to be honest because, for some daft reason I forgot that "Death Guard" and "Thousand Sons" were once 'mere' sub factions of CSM like my Evil Sunz are. It's not a diss on Chaos players or attack, just a statement of fact.

Ummm..... because my "subfaction " has as many specific subfaction units as your Evil Sunz? Quick name all the Night Lords specific units you can.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yes but in the grand tier of "who has the greatest plot armour, daddy?" we all know that the rankings are as follows; Cato Sicarius, The Emperor, Loyalist Characters, Chaos Characters, Xenos, Daemons, this brick I found on the floor, Swarmlord, actual literal garbage, Skarbrand.

bs and you know it, Celestine get punked all the time.

Ooooh I forgot Celestine, somewhere between actual garbage and Skarbrand?

You mean the slot reserved for the avatar of Khaine?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Why are you getting so sensitive about this? I'm merely stating facts - CSM and SM are the only factions in the game AFAIK that have sub faction specific units and that was my point.

Drukhari and basically their entire Codex being sub-faction specific units would like a word.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Why are you getting so sensitive about this? I'm merely stating facts - CSM and SM are the only factions in the game AFAIK that have sub faction specific units and that was my point.

Drukhari and basically their entire Codex being sub-faction specific units would like a word.

Eh not really. Drukhari are their own single army. They've had some fragmentation but there's not a whole separate DE model line for 5 or so different DE army ranges. Each perhaps sharing the core units like warriors, but with upgrade packs and unique sculpts and then a total wildcard (like spacewolves) with a really different design scheme.


Marines are the only current army which has done this. In the past its only, far as I'm aware, Marines and Imperial Guard who have achieved it.

Other armies might have subfactions, but they've no unique models to them - though Gw has sort of tried this with some new named leaders being restricted to one subject or such. That's a far far cry from the Marine situation.



And honestly I really hope other armies don't go down that pathway. I think it would be the wrong idea to make 5 Eldar and 5 DE and 5 Tyranid etc... armies which are all the same themes and concepts twisted. I'd far rather see new unique designed armies with their own identity and designs

 Overread wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Why are you getting so sensitive about this? I'm merely stating facts - CSM and SM are the only factions in the game AFAIK that have sub faction specific units and that was my point.

Drukhari and basically their entire Codex being sub-faction specific units would like a word.

Eh not really. Drukhari are their own single army. They've had some fragmentation but there's not a whole separate DE model line for 5 or so different DE army ranges. Each perhaps sharing the core units like warriors, but with upgrade packs and unique sculpts and then a total wildcard (like spacewolves) with a really different design scheme.


Marines are the only current army which has done this. In the past its only, far as I'm aware, Marines and Imperial Guard who have achieved it.

Other armies might have subfactions, but they've no unique models to them - though Gw has sort of tried this with some new named leaders being restricted to one subject or such. That's a far far cry from the Marine situation.



And honestly I really hope other armies don't go down that pathway. I think it would be the wrong idea to make 5 Eldar and 5 DE and 5 Tyranid etc... armies which are all the same themes and concepts twisted. I'd far rather see new unique designed armies with their own identity and designs

I mean, except for Harlequins, and Genestealer Cults... A "Spinoff" army is going to sell better than one where you have to totally buy new stuff for.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, except for Harlequins, and Genestealer Cults... A "Spinoff" army is going to sell better than one where you have to totally buy new stuff for.

Just like Death Guard?

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, except for Harlequins, and Genestealer Cults... A "Spinoff" army is going to sell better than one where you have to totally buy new stuff for.

Just like Death Guard?

Have you all forgotten about the peak of unmodified humanity, the Militarum Tempestus?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lumping csm in with loyalists is bullgak.

How about we just refer to all xenos armies as one big faction as well? Would that make sense? (Answer: no it wouldn't).

Why are you getting so sensitive about this? I'm merely stating facts - CSM and SM are the only factions in the game AFAIK that have sub faction specific units and that was my point. I had forgotten about CSM while I was writing my post to be honest because, for some daft reason I forgot that "Death Guard" and "Thousand Sons" were once 'mere' sub factions of CSM like my Evil Sunz are. It's not a diss on Chaos players or attack, just a statement of fact.

Ummm..... because my "subfaction " has as many specific subfaction units as your Evil Sunz? Quick name all the Night Lords specific units you can.

Its completely irrelevant if your Legion has no specific sub faction units because that was nothing like what I claimed. Do CSM have sub faction specific units? If the answer to that pretty simple question is 'yes' then my point stands. Now name a single Ork sub faction specific unit excluding special characters. Any one. Across the entire faction. I'll wait.

Have we had any news today?

I wonder if next week will be the big Wolf build up. Probably leading to Ragnar. If SW don't get a new model during this PA book I'd put money on Leman Russ returning at the end of the campaign.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lumping csm in with loyalists is bullgak.

How about we just refer to all xenos armies as one big faction as well? Would that make sense? (Answer: no it wouldn't).

Why are you getting so sensitive about this? I'm merely stating facts - CSM and SM are the only factions in the game AFAIK that have sub faction specific units and that was my point. I had forgotten about CSM while I was writing my post to be honest because, for some daft reason I forgot that "Death Guard" and "Thousand Sons" were once 'mere' sub factions of CSM like my Evil Sunz are. It's not a diss on Chaos players or attack, just a statement of fact.

Ummm..... because my "subfaction " has as many specific subfaction units as your Evil Sunz? Quick name all the Night Lords specific units you can.

Its completely irrelevant if your Legion has no specific sub faction units because that was nothing like what I claimed. Do CSM have sub faction specific units? If the answer to that pretty simple question is 'yes' then my point stands. Now name a single Ork sub faction specific unit excluding special characters. Any one. Across the entire faction. I'll wait.

Have we had any news today?

I wonder if next week will be the big Wolf build up. Probably leading to Ragnar. If SW don't get a new model during this PA book I'd put money on Leman Russ returning at the end of the campaign.

Chaos space marine subfaction (black legion, word bearers, world eaters, emperors children, iron warriors, night lords, alpha legion, red corsairs, the purged, flawless host and those tzeentch chumps) units excluding special characters = 0, same as orks.

Dudeface wrote:

Chaos space marine subfaction (black legion, word bearers, world eaters, emperors children, iron warriors, night lords, alpha legion, red corsairs, the purged, flawless host and those tzeentch chumps) units excluding special characters = 0, same as orks.

Same goes for most of the standard Space Marine codex barring Ultramarines and Black Templars. And even with that said, it's not like there is a crazy amount of specific units until you get into the case of the actual standalone books, which are similar to the whole Death Guard and Thousand Sons setup.

They may show Ghaz like they did Abaddon. Reveal him on a special stream with a look at the characters history. Y'know "way back when Andy Chambers rolled him up for blah blah, Brian Nelson re-imagined him for the 3rd war for Armageddon etc. I think he was the first special character wasn't he?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its completely irrelevant if your Legion has no specific sub faction units because that was nothing like what I claimed. Do CSM have sub faction specific units? If the answer to that pretty simple question is 'yes' then my point stands. Now name a single Ork sub faction specific unit excluding special characters. Any one. Across the entire faction. I'll wait.

Freebooterz?

But really... I'm not sure I totally follow the argument, but I broadly agree Ghaz being Goff only would be bad design.

JSG wrote:
They may show Ghaz like they did Abaddon. Reveal him on a special stream with a look at the characters history. Y'know "way back when Andy Chambers rolled him up for blah blah, Brian Nelson re-imagined him for the 3rd war for Armageddon etc. I think he was the first special character wasn't he?

Didn't the old lemun russ and the old old Calgar come before Ghaz had a model? Now, if Ghaz had rules before them it is different but it's my understanding Ghaz was just a conversion before he got an official model?

Most special characters back then came about within games though, with models performing heroic deeds with the creators and then been written into the lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its completely irrelevant if your Legion has no specific sub faction units because that was nothing like what I claimed. Do CSM have sub faction specific units? If the answer to that pretty simple question is 'yes' then my point stands. Now name a single Ork sub faction specific unit excluding special characters. Any one. Across the entire faction. I'll wait.

Freebooterz?

But really... I'm not sure I totally follow the argument, but I broadly agree Ghaz being Goff only would be bad design.

The Orks historically never use to have units locked out dependent upon faction, however they did get benefits in terms of how many units they could take dependent upon faction. For example Goff's could have 2 Knobs per squad, evils suns more big meks, more weird boys for evil sunz etc etc.

Ork Kommando's and storm boys along with freebooters use to be sort of sub factions in their own way. They were more like faction specific allies, like space marines were the only faction legion of the damned could be taken within at one point.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

JSG wrote:
They may show Ghaz like they did Abaddon. Reveal him on a special stream with a look at the characters history. Y'know "way back when Andy Chambers rolled him up for blah blah, Brian Nelson re-imagined him for the 3rd war for Armageddon etc. I think he was the first special character wasn't he?

Didn't the old lemun russ and the old old Calgar come before Ghaz had a model? Now, if Ghaz had rules before them it is different but it's my understanding Ghaz was just a conversion before he got an official model?

Most special characters back then came about within games though, with models performing heroic deeds with the creators and then been written into the lore.

I'm probably getting him mixed up with Calgar. Ghaz's first official model was the 2nd ed one. Still, he's venerable enough to be given that treatment and his creation is a nice bit of trivia.

Tyel wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its completely irrelevant if your Legion has no specific sub faction units because that was nothing like what I claimed. Do CSM have sub faction specific units? If the answer to that pretty simple question is 'yes' then my point stands. Now name a single Ork sub faction specific unit excluding special characters. Any one. Across the entire faction. I'll wait.

Freebooterz?

But really... I'm not sure I totally follow the argument, but I broadly agree Ghaz being Goff only would be bad design.

Yeah, Flash Gitz at this point can only benefit from one sub-faction, same as Scions.

I'm not really certain what AAE's point here is. Yes, Thousand Sons and Death Guard got spun off into their own factions - in so doing, they actually lost access to ALL the base codex CSM units save for a few vehicles and the odd HQ choice. They are vastly more separate from base CSM than Blood Angels/Dark Angels/whoever are from SM.

SM and CSM were deemed popular enough by GW (who do have the sales figures, after all) to warrant several subfaction-only kits and a spinoff codex. SM, many many times over. As AAE likes to bring out the "popularity card" when it comes to Orks vs more minor armies like Sisters, I'm sure he'll be the first to understand that if a Freebootas, Evil Sunz, Mek Mob or whatever spinoff codex or supplement is to be warranted, the sales figures for Ork stuff would need to be there to justify it.

Games Workshop is a business enterprise operating within a capitalist system, not a club of little 10 year olds playing favorites. If an army is paid more attention than another, it's because the GW sales team determined the demand for that faction was higher.If you want your game to be a passion project, you should be looking for free rules from an online community, not a Game Product TM from a publicly traded business.

the_scotsman wrote:
Games Workshop is a business enterprise operating within a capitalist system, not a club of little 10 year olds playing favorites. If an army is paid more attention than another, it's because the GW sales team determined the demand for that faction was higher.If you want your game to be a passion project, you should be looking for free rules from an online community, not a Game Product TM from a publicly traded business.

You're right. GW also, as a business, decided that new Banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi and Drazhar should be in a boxed set along with a few other units. If an army is in a better value boxed set than another it's because the GW sales team determined the demand for that faction was higher.

The GW is a business argument only goes so far. It is within my rights to be disappointed at a sub faction locked character that I am unable to play in my army, if that is the only release my faction is getting. I don't claim that Abaddon was a release for any subfaction other than Black Legion, but my point (as my first post on this that seems to have disappeared from the quotation trail now) is that is is much more likely the various Chaos and Loyalist subfactions get a release specific to them, than it is for mine, therefore I think it's right to hope that this model is something that I can use in any clan, not for any particular rules advantage, but so I can take him in my fluffy army without having to game or be at a massive disadvantage.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't see why Wolves or DA or any other sub faction of Marines (including Chaos Marines) are entitled to special, unique units while no other subfaction is?

... because they have their own codices?

naaaaaaaaaaaaaah! it couldn't be that! That makes entirely too much sense!

Except they haven't always and GW was fine with them not. Ergo existence of a codex isnt evidence of worthiness, it's just evidence of willingness. The assassins got a codex in 2nd and 3rd ed - are they now due another one? They're more worthy than salamanders or iron hands as they 'had their own codex' years before those armies even had 40k rules...

If evey other army was dissected like marines now are, Orks would have the most codices and supplements because pretty much every warband is unique. The capacity for different and unique equipment and units for is far greater than anything space marines have.

I don't get why Ghaz is any different to Guilliman and Doobie in terms of being a giant centre-piece mini.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't see why Wolves or DA or any other sub faction of Marines (including Chaos Marines) are entitled to special, unique units while no other subfaction is?

... because they have their own codices?

naaaaaaaaaaaaaah! it couldn't be that! That makes entirely too much sense!

I'm pretty concerned when we actually fully agree on something. I get people want their things but they shouldn't begrudge someone with an actual codex even one new character model because they feel their ignored children are more deserving.

I'd say as well, I'm pretty tired of every October being Orktober. Please let my favorite month go ork players, I give you instead Orktember. You're welcome, that way I don't have to hear how ignored orks are every single October from now till the end of time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't get why Ghaz is any different to Guilliman and Doobie in terms of being a giant centre-piece mini.

I'd also say that some other factions have interesting center piece HQs that don't really help the sub factions. Like Cawl, for instance only working with Mars. Many sub factions don't have a neat center piece HQ model. Yet I cease to see much rage at their lack or inability to use them every where. I mean in dark eldar they don't even have a named character that I remember for kabals of any variety and the two named characters for cults and covens are locked to a specific sub faction. I just don't get why Orks need to have Ghaz be so special when shadowsun was the oddity and not the norm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Aside from generic models that every space marine got,

Why are you setting those models aside? It makes no sense. Those are space wolves models playable on a space wolves army, and very likely the future of all space wolves armies.
So just stop putting them aside when counting what new models space wolves got.
Going by your weird metrics, my army got 0 new models, despite my entire range being rebooted, because none of the new models are exclusive to the order of the ebon lance .

Going by my weird metric ? He's complaining how Ghaz shouldn't be locked to Goffs for then he gets nothing. I just said I would have liked a new Ragnar model. All of these new primaris models mean nothing to my space wolves as its an old army, I'm not buffing them all up with primaris so those new units mean nothing to me. However, a primaris of Ragnar means a lot to me as his old model looks like a fuggly grandpa munster, so I'd make an exception for him especially if he came with his two wolves as I've never gotten that character because the model is so ugly.

I'll keep putting those models aside as they are not faction specific, I'm sorry some people have such hate for all marines they refuse to see the need of a codex getting new characters. Sorry you don't like or agree. I don't fault anyone their toys but don't you deem worthy to tell me I have to bite my tongue on what I would want at the very least, one redone ancient ugly model.

I'm not even asking for new models. I just want rules to make existing models be unique to my faction like veteran intercessors or World Eaters Red Butchers for feths sake.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, except for Harlequins, and Genestealer Cults... A "Spinoff" army is going to sell better than one where you have to totally buy new stuff for.

Just like Death Guard?

Have you all forgotten about the peak of unmodified humanity, the Militarum Tempestus?

One of the three Imperial Guard Troops options, you mean?

Side note - as an actual Englishman, I'd like to apologise on behalf of our nation for any posts from the user operating as "An Actual Englishman" which may have caused offense, discomfort, mild confusion, shaking of heads, slight embarrassment for others, gaps forming in queues, tea getting spilt, etc, etc. It's just not cricket, really.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I'd also say that some other factions have interesting center piece HQs that don't really help the sub factions. Like Cawl, for instance only working with Mars. Many sub factions don't have a neat center piece HQ model. Yet I cease to see much rage at their lack or inability to use them every where. I mean in dark eldar they don't even have a named character that I remember for kabals of any variety and the two named characters for cults and covens are locked to a specific sub faction. I just don't get why Orks need to have Ghaz be so special when shadowsun was the oddity and not the norm.

... because that's how Ghazghkull Thrakka has always worked, both in fluff and in the game? Heck, even right now all his abilities work for any clan.
He has never been the goff subfaction character, that would be Zagstrukk.
The leader of all clans should be able to lead all clans, period. What other characters do is utterly irrelevant to this.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't see why Wolves or DA or any other sub faction of Marines (including Chaos Marines) are entitled to special, unique units while no other subfaction is?

... because they have their own codices?

naaaaaaaaaaaaaah! it couldn't be that! That makes entirely too much sense!

I'm pretty concerned when we actually fully agree on something. I get people want their things but they shouldn't begrudge someone with an actual codex even one new character model because they feel their ignored children are more deserving.

well it's honestly a pretty self evidant thing, I mean, we can argue weather or not dark angels, blood angels, space wolves etc SHOULD have their own codices until we're blue in the face. but the cold reality is that they do, and in the case of most of the loyalist armies have had them for AGES (Codex Space Wolves dates back to 1994 making them one of the oldest armies with a codex in warhammer 40k) but the fact remains these codices exist.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, except for Harlequins, and Genestealer Cults... A "Spinoff" army is going to sell better than one where you have to totally buy new stuff for.

Just like Death Guard?

Have you all forgotten about the peak of unmodified humanity, the Militarum Tempestus?

One of the three Imperial Guard Troops options, you mean?

Side note - as an actual Englishman, I'd like to apologise on behalf of our nation for any posts from the user operating as "An Actual Englishman" which may have caused offense, discomfort, mild confusion, shaking of heads, slight embarrassment for others, gaps forming in queues, tea getting spilt, etc, etc. It's just not cricket, really.

I actually did spill some tea and puffed my chest in indignation. Your reasoned words have calmed me down however, thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't see why Wolves or DA or any other sub faction of Marines (including Chaos Marines) are entitled to special, unique units while no other subfaction is?

... because they have their own codices?

naaaaaaaaaaaaaah! it couldn't be that! That makes entirely too much sense!

I'm pretty concerned when we actually fully agree on something. I get people want their things but they shouldn't begrudge someone with an actual codex even one new character model because they feel their ignored children are more deserving.

well it's honestly a pretty self evidant thing, I mean, we can argue weather or not dark angels, blood angels, space wolves etc SHOULD have their own codices until we're blue in the face. but the cold reality is that they do, and in the case of most of the loyalist armies have had them for AGES (Codex Space Wolves dates back to 1994 making them one of the oldest armies with a codex in warhammer 40k) but the fact remains these codices exist.

True, I fear the " You get nothing and like it ! " is more of an anti marine thing than a reasoned excuse as by that logic no marines should get new characters as they all got so much already. Yet, here we are and they all got new characters aside from poor BT, sorry guys.