Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

from tactics forum, wannabmoy provided this link: https://www.grimdarkfilthycasuals.com/the-sons-of-russ-space-wolf-initial-impressions/

and on it I saw this

If this was already brought up, my bad.

Are people actually claiming Ghaz is better than Ragnar?

That's patently insane.

The issue why Ragnar is meh is a general Space Wolves problem, not because the model itself is bad. He can, for 1 CP, average 16 hits... but again, it's if he can make it into combat. I sympathesize as an Ork player (and we at least have Tellyporta and Da Jump...)

Ghaz is literally trash tier if he's the expected 280 points, especially when I can take a Warboss w/ Da Biggest Boss upgrade and then 200 points more stuff to supplement his "loss".

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It would be reeeeeaallly nice if GW would just relax their dam 'no model no rules' policy and print rules for Primaris Wolf Guard, among other things. It would certainly generate sales of multiple kits via people converting them.

And potentially let other companies steal all GW's profits (despite their nearest competitor being 2% their size...)?

 Argive wrote:
So Ragnar will have 10 attacks on the charge... AND scoring additional hits on 4+ for 1 CP? And then regain a CP if he kills a character.. ?

Correct.

And still they complain.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Space Marine sub-codex =/= Ork sub-factions

...in your opinion. I disagree.

No, objectively. Ork sub-factions do not have their own codex.

That is meaningless as far as I'm concerned. I don't recall any statement by GW indicating such either.

Either way - off topic. I'm reporting ant more posts that continue in this vein and apologise in advance to the mods for contributing to the off topic discussion.

I think the relative importance of space marine sub-codex (of which Space Wolves is one) and Ork sub-factions (also included in this release) is very much on-topic. What I read here is "I lost the argument so I'll just report anything that disagrees with me" which is not a particularly valid reason. Certainly GW is giving Space Wolves and Orks equal weight with this release by everything we've seen thus far; do you assert that each Ork sub-faction is going to be given as much content as Space Wolves are in Saga of the Beast? Or that there will be future PA releases that even things out? Because thus far PA has been awarding FAR more content to each marine sub-codex than sub-factions within others and I would be quite happy to see any evidence you've found suggesting a change or alleviation in that trend.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So Ragnar will have 10 attacks on the charge... AND scoring additional hits on 4+ for 1 CP? And then regain a CP if he kills a character.. ?

Correct.

And still they complain.

I mean I just look at the AOK and my phoenix lords or my poor autarch with his 4 attacks hitting on a 3+... Laugh and walk away..

You ordered your box yet ?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So Ragnar will have 10 attacks on the charge... AND scoring additional hits on 4+ for 1 CP? And then regain a CP if he kills a character.. ?

Correct.

And still they complain.

in fairness it doesn't matter how many attacks a melee character has if he can't get into melee (yes Ghaz has this issue too) but we dunno if the space wolves will have some new tricks in the book we're not seeing, for all we know they'll get a strat allowing them to infiltrate any infantry unit that suddenly makes Ragnar the most OP character in the game. likewise there could be a new start we've not seen for Ghaz that makes him absurdly OP

it's simply too soon to judge. 40k is no longer all about the datasheets, it's how the datasheets interact with strats etc

Stratagems and CP need to go. They’ve done nothing but hurt the game, because rather than try to actually balance the factions of game properly GW can just release more broken stratagems as band aids. Nothing is broken or OP if everything is, right?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Sounds tough. Now please bear in mind that ALL THOSE PROBLEMS also apply to Ghaz' AND he's a monster. For extra lulz.

Please do keep telling me how he's better than Ragnar though ..

Depends on the lens you want to view things. They're two different characters serving two different roles.

Do you want to solo a knight without breaking a sweat? Ghaz is the guy. Do you want to go through as many Primaris as possible? Then Ragnar.

 zend wrote:
Stratagems and CP need to go. They’ve done nothing but hurt the game, because rather than try to actually balance the factions of game properly GW can just release more broken stratagems as band aids. Nothing is broken or OP if everything is, right?

This feels like the right answer - but GW won't do it.

The busted 7th with all the goofy formations and whatnot, and now 8th is a mess of Stratagems and CP generators...

I'm sure 9th will be better (for a while), and that Ghaz will really be a monster there!

WhiteDog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Ghaz can be "not that great", he's still way more valuable that Ragnar who feels more like a random captain.

You are evidently wrong. Ghaz looks to be over twice the cost of Ragnar and he pales in comparison.

Bingo. Nobody will pay the cost of Ghaz just for an extra attack on the charge.

You'd play Ghaz to have a character that cannot lose more than 4 damage in a shooting phase. At least he is fluff and his individual strength kinda match his position in the 40K universe. Ragnar doesn't give much at all, he is basically the same as he was, plus a wound and an attack : was he played ? He is a random captain with many attacks and a rule that's a bit useless considering SW's difficulties to get into combat.

You know what else stops losing wounds? Character protection rules, Grot Shield, and being able to get to combat super fast for the cost.

 Alpharius wrote:

 zend wrote:
Stratagems and CP need to go. They’ve done nothing but hurt the game, because rather than try to actually balance the factions of game properly GW can just release more broken stratagems as band aids. Nothing is broken or OP if everything is, right?

This feels like the right answer - but GW won't do it.

The busted 7th with all the goofy formations and whatnot, and now 8th is a mess of Stratagems and CP generators...

The fix has been there from the outset in removing shared CP generation, but they keep being too timid to utilize it.

And really, the biggest problem with Stratagems is that too many of them are effectively "army list building" ones when it comes to the must haves. Simply making that stuff a part of unit entries would go a long way towards 'fixing' the issue.

As would dreadsocking people who insist on exploiting things that are clearly not meant to be utilized that way.

Stratagems unfortunately ended up being, well, remarkably unstrategic. In most cases they're pretty must just straight up attritional combat bonuses of some sort. Instead of offering new mechanics or providing unique abilities to specific units, they just add +1 to hit or rerolls to wound or the like.

So we get a game where the lethality increasingly spikes ever higher, but that's about all the evolution we really get, instead of adding any utility or depth to units.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Stratagems unfortunately ended up being, well, remarkably unstrategic. In most cases they're pretty must just straight up attritional combat bonuses of some sort. Instead of offering new mechanics or providing unique abilities to specific units, they just add +1 to hit or rerolls to wound or the like.

So we get a game where the lethality increasingly spikes ever higher, but that's about all the evolution we really get, instead of adding any utility or depth to units.

A good point, I think. Though TBF the PA series has introduced a number of more strategic stratagems. I just with they weren't so tied to how efficiently the army fills out detachments... Shouldn't a small, elite force have MORE strategic potential?

Isn't "knowledge of the foe" basically just an add on to the sw chapter tactic? It only requires a battle forged detachment and no cp. That's a chapter tactic.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Isn't "knowledge of the foe" basically just an add on to the sw chapter tactic? It only requires a battle forged detachment and no cp. That's a chapter tactic.

Limits it to 1/round and creates interaction with rules that affect stratagems.

...but yeah seems so.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Do you want to solo a knight without breaking a sweat?

Can Gazhkull really solo a knight without breaking a sweat? Oh yeah sorry I forgot, he doesn't have to because the knight literally cannot kill him in one turn .

And still they complain.

Some of us are quite happy with Ragnar. He's not OP in any form. But if you can live with his mobility drawback he is quite good for his points.

Justyn wrote:

And still they complain.

Some of us are quite happy with Ragnar. He's not OP in any form. But if you can live with his mobility drawback he is quite good for his points.

My mental image of Ragnar is now that of an utterly lethal swordsman capable of churning 'Knights like bad dice in an industrial blender, hobbled by his confinement to a mobility scooter.

 zend wrote:
Stratagems and CP need to go. They’ve done nothing but hurt the game, because rather than try to actually balance the factions of game properly GW can just release more broken stratagems as band aids. Nothing is broken or OP if everything is, right?

The next step are "Endless Stratagems" (obviously not the name), Stratagems that have miniatures to represent their effects.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So Ragnar will have 10 attacks on the charge... AND scoring additional hits on 4+ for 1 CP? And then regain a CP if he kills a character.. ?

Correct.

And still they complain.

in fairness it doesn't matter how many attacks a melee character has if he can't get into melee (yes Ghaz has this issue too) but we dunno if the space wolves will have some new tricks in the book we're not seeing, for all we know they'll get a strat allowing them to infiltrate any infantry unit that suddenly makes Ragnar the most OP character in the game. likewise there could be a new start we've not seen for Ghaz that makes him absurdly OP

it's simply too soon to judge. 40k is no longer all about the datasheets, it's how the datasheets interact with strats etc

This. Without the strats and warlord trait, Raven Guard wouldn't be able to pull off many of its lethal tricks. SW may have some strat, trait or psychic power that gets Rag into combat T2. We just don't know yet. This entire conversation could be moot within the next 72 hours.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 zend wrote:
Stratagems and CP need to go. They’ve done nothing but hurt the game, because rather than try to actually balance the factions of game properly GW can just release more broken stratagems as band aids. Nothing is broken or OP if everything is, right?

The next step are "Endless Stratagems" (obviously not the name), Stratagems that have miniatures to represent their effects.

You know you want the hammernado but with thunder hammers!

 puma713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So Ragnar will have 10 attacks on the charge... AND scoring additional hits on 4+ for 1 CP? And then regain a CP if he kills a character.. ?

Correct.

And still they complain.

in fairness it doesn't matter how many attacks a melee character has if he can't get into melee (yes Ghaz has this issue too) but we dunno if the space wolves will have some new tricks in the book we're not seeing, for all we know they'll get a strat allowing them to infiltrate any infantry unit that suddenly makes Ragnar the most OP character in the game. likewise there could be a new start we've not seen for Ghaz that makes him absurdly OP

it's simply too soon to judge. 40k is no longer all about the datasheets, it's how the datasheets interact with strats etc

This. Without the strats and warlord trait, Raven Guard wouldn't be able to pull off many of its lethal tricks. SW may have some strat, trait or psychic power that gets Rag into combat T2. We just don't know yet. This entire conversation could be moot within the next 72 hours.

Arent impulsors the delivery mechanism for a T2 charge ?

 Argive wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So Ragnar will have 10 attacks on the charge... AND scoring additional hits on 4+ for 1 CP? And then regain a CP if he kills a character.. ?

Correct.

And still they complain.

in fairness it doesn't matter how many attacks a melee character has if he can't get into melee (yes Ghaz has this issue too) but we dunno if the space wolves will have some new tricks in the book we're not seeing, for all we know they'll get a strat allowing them to infiltrate any infantry unit that suddenly makes Ragnar the most OP character in the game. likewise there could be a new start we've not seen for Ghaz that makes him absurdly OP

it's simply too soon to judge. 40k is no longer all about the datasheets, it's how the datasheets interact with strats etc

This. Without the strats and warlord trait, Raven Guard wouldn't be able to pull off many of its lethal tricks. SW may have some strat, trait or psychic power that gets Rag into combat T2. We just don't know yet. This entire conversation could be moot within the next 72 hours.

Arent impulsors the delivery mechanism for a T2 charge ?

can't charge when disembarking and the impulsor only can carry 6 models. try to use an impulsor toget ragnar into a charge position and you've got good odds of getting Ragnar and a squad of intercessors killed for your efforts.

aren't assault hellblasters a thing? sound like a pretty good support system for him popping out of an impulsor. they hit like intercessors and would seemingly help with the wounding in melee trait.

Racerguy180 wrote:
aren't assault hellblasters a thing? sound like a pretty good support system for him popping out of an impulsor. they hit like intercessors and would seemingly help with the wounding in melee trait.

doesn't really address the issue at hand. hellblasters are no more durable then intercessors. the problem is you cannot charge out of any transport, even an impulsor, so you'd move up, dismount, and have to stand and take a turn of firepower. that said if Space Wolves had some sort of Victrix guard unit (a 2 man primaris bodyguard) I could see some uses for that, load your impulsor up with them ragnar and a Primaris Runepreist, hop out, cast stormcaller and use the Cloaked by the storm strat. but just counbting on a pack of 5 intercessors to shield ragnar proably won't work.

that's only ten T4 3+ wounds, not that ahrd to get through if it means killing a major threat like ragnar.

IMHO the best way to run Ragnar'll be running him up the board with an escort of whatever troops you like and a rune priest.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So Ragnar will have 10 attacks on the charge... AND scoring additional hits on 4+ for 1 CP? And then regain a CP if he kills a character.. ?

Correct.

And still they complain.

in fairness it doesn't matter how many attacks a melee character has if he can't get into melee (yes Ghaz has this issue too) but we dunno if the space wolves will have some new tricks in the book we're not seeing, for all we know they'll get a strat allowing them to infiltrate any infantry unit that suddenly makes Ragnar the most OP character in the game. likewise there could be a new start we've not seen for Ghaz that makes him absurdly OP

it's simply too soon to judge. 40k is no longer all about the datasheets, it's how the datasheets interact with strats etc

This. Without the strats and warlord trait, Raven Guard wouldn't be able to pull off many of its lethal tricks. SW may have some strat, trait or psychic power that gets Rag into combat T2. We just don't know yet. This entire conversation could be moot within the next 72 hours.

Arent impulsors the delivery mechanism for a T2 charge ?

can't charge when disembarking and the impulsor only can carry 6 models. try to use an impulsor toget ragnar into a charge position and you've got good odds of getting Ragnar and a squad of intercessors killed for your efforts.

My point is he and the troops can deploy next to the impulsor or in some LOS blocking spot etc. In T1 so that both primaris marines and the impulsor have to be removed befor they can shoot at ragnar. He then can move and charge T2 and be supported by rievers or something..
Not saying its fool proof but id LOVE me a cheap vehicle with a 4++ that can deploy units after moving.. lol.. can always have some rhinos chugging along too to act as extra sreen. Not to mention there will be a bunch of invictors as well surely... Not saying its top table competative but I dont understand the mentality that unless he is guaranteed a T1 charge hes a trashfire...

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So Ragnar will have 10 attacks on the charge... AND scoring additional hits on 4+ for 1 CP? And then regain a CP if he kills a character.. ?

Correct.

And still they complain.

in fairness it doesn't matter how many attacks a melee character has if he can't get into melee (yes Ghaz has this issue too) but we dunno if the space wolves will have some new tricks in the book we're not seeing, for all we know they'll get a strat allowing them to infiltrate any infantry unit that suddenly makes Ragnar the most OP character in the game. likewise there could be a new start we've not seen for Ghaz that makes him absurdly OP

it's simply too soon to judge. 40k is no longer all about the datasheets, it's how the datasheets interact with strats etc

This. Without the strats and warlord trait, Raven Guard wouldn't be able to pull off many of its lethal tricks. SW may have some strat, trait or psychic power that gets Rag into combat T2. We just don't know yet. This entire conversation could be moot within the next 72 hours.

Arent impulsors the delivery mechanism for a T2 charge ?

can't charge when disembarking and the impulsor only can carry 6 models. try to use an impulsor toget ragnar into a charge position and you've got good odds of getting Ragnar and a squad of intercessors killed for your efforts.

My point is he and the troops can deploy next to the impulsor or in some LOS blocking spot etc. In T1 so that both primaris marines and the impulsor have to be removed befor they can shoot at ragnar. He then can move and charge T2 and be supported by rievers or something..
Not saying its fool proof but id LOVE me a cheap vehicle with a 4++ that can deploy units after moving.. lol..

true thats right, a vehicle would count for character defence wouldn't it?

on another note entirely ayone any good with photoshop? let's see some Ragnar's with John Wick's head memes!

Ragnar is power 6?!

Jain Zar is power 7, has half the attacks, no invulnerable save.

GW is not even hiding the please don't bypass the language barrier like this.

Ragnar was my first an favourite special character all the way back in 1993. But it's ridiculous what they've done

To be fair, it would be kind of dumb to make another character exactly like one that's already considered to be a failure.