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 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Those prices feel like they should be 20 to 30% lower than they are. That's a hard pass from me.

Warjacks aren't bad at 30, but every single infantry figure is priced like a solo/character.

I was just looking at the starter boxes and $130 for what amounts to a 2-player demo is a bit steep. If it was closer to $100 to get that first taste and I was sure that I could still get models 12 months from now it would be a much easier sell.

NVM I found the rules.

The models look pretty underwhelming at those prices. They also do look at lot like infinity models to me.

Their aversion to unique sculpts in units is killing me. 3-man units in triplicate for a full force? And multiples of the same sculpt solo? For those prices? GTFO.

There is no value here for an unknown game, even with full rules release. I am not going in for 2 starters to try and hype my buddies, and I highly doubt any of them will either.

 skrulnik wrote:

Their aversion to unique sculpts in units is killing me. 3-man units in triplicate for a full force? And multiples of the same sculpt solo? For those prices? GTFO.

There is no value here for an unknown game, even with full rules release. I am not going in for 2 starters to try and hype my buddies, and I highly doubt any of them will either.

Each sculpt in the unit is unique at least. And the stretch goals seem to include alternate sculpts of some of the solo models (hopefully those aren't KS exclusive - though if they aren't that's going to lead to some serious SKU bloat right off the bat - maybe they'll come in 2 packs?) But yeah looking at the sample lists in the rulebook - the scale of the game seems quite a bit bigger than what I had envisioned and taking multiple units of the same 3 sculpts is sad - and unit variety will probably be lacking while they are getting things off the ground.

But... but, don't you know that not every company is GW and that we shouldn't expect nice models or materials from PP because they're just a small group of blokes working out of a garage... I exaggerate but, at those prices we deserve more unique sculpts if not poseable kits.

Schmapdi wrote:
The "We're gonna do a KS every 3-4 months to expand the game" is interesting and, to me, is further reason they DEFINITELY should have made these in plastic. If you are literally crowdfunding as you go why not go big? Instead of 100k to make 3 starter sets in metal they could have easily hit $500k, 800K or more make the same kits in plastic which would have made a product a LOT more people would be excited about and not the "this looks sorta OK I'll wait until it hits retail."

Plastic would have meant an 18 month turnaround instead of 3-4 months, and would have meant having to outsource production instead of doing it in house, and would thus also be subject to delays outside their control.

Crowdfunding plastic is asking the question 'Does this get made or not?'... where the question PP want to be asking is 'How many of these do we need to make?'

Regarding the quality of the material - I've got tons of resin models, many from the most high end options in the industry, and PP's new resin Still impresses me. I believe their standard now is that the main model is resin and only the weapons are metal. If they follow that here, it will be awesome. The more resin, the better, imo!

 insaniak wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:
The "We're gonna do a KS every 3-4 months to expand the game" is interesting and, to me, is further reason they DEFINITELY should have made these in plastic. If you are literally crowdfunding as you go why not go big? Instead of 100k to make 3 starter sets in metal they could have easily hit $500k, 800K or more make the same kits in plastic which would have made a product a LOT more people would be excited about and not the "this looks sorta OK I'll wait until it hits retail."

Plastic would have meant an 18 month turnaround instead of 3-4 months, and would have meant having to outsource production instead of doing it in house, and would thus also be subject to delays outside their control.

Crowdfunding plastic is asking the question 'Does this get made or not?'... where the question PP want to be asking is 'How many of these do we need to make?'

And yet, it's totally do-able. Do a first wave with 4-5 starter boxes (depending on how much they fund) Get those out the next year. It's not like they don't also have WM/H and Monpoc to keep their fans occupied in the meanwhile. They could release heroes/solos in resin for Warcaster on occasion in between kickstarters to add variety and keep people interested. Lotta games now float on a yearly-ish KS cycle. In 5 years time they'd actually have a nice base for a modern miniature game instead of jumping bravely back in 1997 to a primarily metal game.

They wouldn't need to ask "how many of these do we need to make" because they'd actually be able to sell the damn things.

 RiTides wrote:
Regarding the quality of the material - I've got tons of resin models, many from the most high end options in the industry, and PP's new resin Still impresses me. I believe their standard now is that the main model is resin and only the weapons are metal. If they follow that here, it will be awesome. The more resin, the better, imo!

It's not though - they say it right on there Q&A - "Right now, most of the models we’ve previewed so far will be made in metal, even the warjacks. " https://home.privateerpress.com/2020/02/20/warcaster-neo-mechanika-answers-to-your-burning-questions/

Schmapdi wrote:

And yet, it's totally do-able. Do a first wave with 4-5 starter boxes (depending on how much they fund) Get those out the next year. It's not like they don't also have WM/H and Monpoc to keep their fans occupied in the meanwhile. They could release heroes/solos in resin for Warcaster on occasion in between kickstarters to add variety and keep people interested. Lotta games now float on a yearly-ish KS cycle. In 5 years time they'd actually have a nice base for a modern miniature game instead of jumping bravely back in 1997 to a primarily metal game.

Yes, it's doable, but logistically difficult, and you're left either doing multiple waves of kickstarters with nothing actually being released, or forcing everyone to wait a year or two between releases. Neither of which are going to promote a healthy customer base.


I don't get the 1997 comment, to be honest. Most of the industry that isn't Games Workshop is still using metal and resin, and will be for some time yet.

 insaniak wrote:
Yes, it's doable, but logistically difficult, and you're left either doing multiple waves of kickstarters with nothing actually being released, or forcing everyone to wait a year or two between releases. Neither of which are going to promote a healthy customer base.

I don't get the 1997 comment, to be honest. Most of the industry that isn't Games Workshop is still using metal and resin, and will be for some time yet.

Most of the industry doesn't survive more than a decade either, poor materials and a lack of deep pockets investment at launch may play a large part in that. If you want to play in this pool you have to expect to be compared to the best the industry has to offer.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Those prices feel like they should be 20 to 30% lower than they are. That's a hard pass from me.

Warjacks aren't bad at 30, but every single infantry figure is priced like a solo/character.

I was just looking at the starter boxes and $130 for what amounts to a 2-player demo is a bit steep. If it was closer to $100 to get that first taste and I was sure that I could still get models 12 months from now it would be a much easier sell.

A lot of time the prices of the KSer buy in include the free stuff (just masked as being unlocked) so I wonder how the price will look as funds go up.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
A lot of time the prices of the KSer buy in include the free stuff (just masked as being unlocked) so I wonder how the price will look as funds go up.

I'd still rather a cheaper buy-in than the current price with extras.

To be clear, metal is not a 'poor material' for wargaming miniatures, and many gamers still prefer it to plastic, for various reasons.

Badly cast metal is bad for multi-part models. But choosing metal is not inherently going with an inferior option.


And, ultimately, plastic just isn't a viable option for most companies. Sure, you can sneer about them not investing enough, but it's not actually that simple. Even aside from the cash consideration, there are only a handful of people in this industry who can actually sculpt the sort of plastic models that GW are producing (and most of them work for GW) and even fewer places with the knowledge and experience to mould and cast them. If you can get into their production queue.

Plastic is slightly more do-able than it was a decade ago... but even so, I rather suspect that 3D printing will have replaced conventional manufacturing long before injection moulded plastic becomes a viable option for most miniature companies.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
A lot of time the prices of the KSer buy in include the free stuff (just masked as being unlocked) so I wonder how the price will look as funds go up.

I'd still rather a cheaper buy-in than the current price with extras.

There's always a tough battle for pricing what people will pay and what will actually make you money. Monolith, for example only has made money off of one KSer (Batman season 2). The others either lost money (conan) or made enough to fund the next project.


Onto Matt's manifesto. They have been talking for about a year (even just recently) about more RPG stuff. If they move to Kickstarter to fun more Iron Kingdoms I'm all for it. They have, in my opinion, one of the most fascinating and well developed settings for gaming in.


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 insaniak wrote:


Plastic is slightly more do-able than it was a decade ago... but even so, I rather suspect that 3D printing will have replaced conventional manufacturing long before injection moulded plastic becomes a viable option for most miniature companies.

You're not wrong. Titan Forge just hopped to Pateron a few months ago with STLs and is one of the largest now in terms of backers (over 3000). At $10/month for the basic package that's some easy math to guess what their minimum they're earning is. I'm printing out stuff for Fallout I got off of Thingivers and I'm spending 25 cents a figure roughly (including consumables like the LED screen). And in the past 2 months all the players are fighting over selling their sub $200 resin printers (though some resins melt the plastic vat so you may start seeing prices in the low $200 instead with better material).

 insaniak wrote:
To be clear, metal is not a 'poor material' for wargaming miniatures, and many gamers still prefer it to plastic, for various reasons.

Badly cast metal is bad for multi-part models. But choosing metal is not inherently going with an inferior option.


And, ultimately, plastic just isn't a viable option for most companies. Sure, you can sneer about them not investing enough, but it's not actually that simple. Even aside from the cash consideration, there are only a handful of people in this industry who can actually sculpt the sort of plastic models that GW are producing (and most of them work for GW) and even fewer places with the knowledge and experience to mould and cast them. If you can get into their production queue.

Plastic is slightly more do-able than it was a decade ago... but even so, I rather suspect that 3D printing will have replaced conventional manufacturing long before injection moulded plastic becomes a viable option for most miniature companies.

This speaks to an industry-wide lack of investment more than plastics being impossible. GW has shown that they clearly aren't impossible as long as you're willing to make the effort and other companies. Beyond that, plastics seem to be better if you want more poseable and customizable models. It's just easier to chop up and kitbash with plastic than it will ever be with resin or metal.

If you're still dropping metal on us it better be either gorgeous or dirt cheap and this is neither of those.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
There's always a tough battle for pricing what people will pay and what will actually make you money. Monolith, for example only has made money off of one KSer (Batman season 2). The others either lost money (conan) or made enough to fund the next project.

This is why I tend to avoid KS. That and the last thing I jumped in on took so long to deliver I wasn't interested in it once it finally shipped.

Oh wow, metal jacks! To be honest, I'm even more in now. Some of my best gaming memories are building and running all the metal trollblood heavies, was a travesty when they swapped to inferior sculpts in PVC!

That explains the price a lot better now, too...

I've been digging into the rules and love the void gate deployment being standard, should mix things up from the "line up and meet in the middle" quite well!

Metal minis, retail pricing, crappy early bird pitched firmly at the US market and unfriendly shipping, combined with weird waves that should have been prepped in advance of launch?

That'll be a hard pass from me.

 insaniak wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:

And yet, it's totally do-able. Do a first wave with 4-5 starter boxes (depending on how much they fund) Get those out the next year. It's not like they don't also have WM/H and Monpoc to keep their fans occupied in the meanwhile. They could release heroes/solos in resin for Warcaster on occasion in between kickstarters to add variety and keep people interested. Lotta games now float on a yearly-ish KS cycle. In 5 years time they'd actually have a nice base for a modern miniature game instead of jumping bravely back in 1997 to a primarily metal game.

Yes, it's doable, but logistically difficult, and you're left either doing multiple waves of kickstarters with nothing actually being released, or forcing everyone to wait a year or two between releases. Neither of which are going to promote a healthy customer base.


I don't get the 1997 comment, to be honest. Most of the industry that isn't Games Workshop is still using metal and resin, and will be for some time yet.

Most of the industry? I don't buy GW and I don't buy metal, and I am beyond spoiled for choice. There are too many options that aren't metal. A modern, big name company kickstarting a game of metal miniatures is just sad.

I think that's the rub. Privateer Press is only big in name only these days. Whatever happened with Warmachine has really bled them dry.

Anyone saying gamers prefer metal modelsobviously hasn't had to try assemble most of the metal Warmachine Cryx range.

Or the large metal jacks. That had a weight comparable to a brick. They had modelsi used entire tubes of superglue on.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

This speaks to an industry-wide lack of investment more than plastics being impossible. GW has shown that they clearly aren't impossible as long as you're willing to make the effort and other companies[i]. Beyond that, plastics seem to be better if you want more poseable and customizable models. It's just easier to chop up and kitbash with plastic than it will ever be with resin or metal.

If you're still dropping metal on us it better be either gorgeous or dirt cheap and this is neither of those.

The "effort" GW made was hitting gold with the LotR-license boom and in turn investing that into manufacturing. Sadly, that is not an option that is open for most tabletop companies.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Anyone saying gamers prefer metal modelsobviously hasn't had to try assemble most of the metal Warmachine Cryx range.

Or the large metal jacks. That had a weight comparable to a brick. They had modelsi used entire tubes of superglue on.

Metal definitely has it's place in the modern tabletop market, but I would agree that big multi-part models is not that place

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Most of the industry? I don't buy GW and I don't buy metal, and I am beyond spoiled for choice. There are too many options that aren't metal. A modern, big name company kickstarting a game of metal miniatures is just sad.

I actually said that most of the industry uses metal and resin, not just metal...



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 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Anyone saying gamers prefer metal modelsobviously hasn't had to try assemble most of the metal Warmachine Cryx range.

Or the large metal jacks. That had a weight comparable to a brick. They had modelsi used entire tubes of superglue on.

GW has had some multi-part metal models over the years that make PP's early efforts look like finely crafted masterworks. But as I mentioned before, the fact that badly made multi part models exist doesn't change the fact that metal does have its good points.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yes, it's doable, but logistically difficult, and you're left either doing multiple waves of kickstarters with nothing actually being released, or forcing everyone to wait a year or two between releases. Neither of which are going to promote a healthy customer base.

I don't get the 1997 comment, to be honest. Most of the industry that isn't Games Workshop is still using metal and resin, and will be for some time yet.

Most of the industry doesn't survive more than a decade either, poor materials and a lack of deep pockets investment at launch may play a large part in that. If you want to play in this pool you have to expect to be compared to the best the industry has to offer.

That's nonsensical. With that approach, no new company should ever open.

Anyway, while metal jacks are a bit annoying, their biggest sin is being so bland I have no particular urge to buy them. Why should I, they offer nothing new.

Currently at $229K it seems some of the frenzy of launch hour has eased off a little, however that's still a very respectable and impressive value for a first day funding.

Backers only now get a pair of Wallpapers from the micro-stretchgoals.

Also they've hit $225 which has unlocked the neoprene map at $45 which should ship in the August wave.

The next unlock is more scenarios for the core rule book at $250K. Though the big target right now is the $300K which unlocks some alternate variation models for the leaders and a bountyhunter (all factions). After that there's the $350 goal which unlocks variations for the light warjacks - a target I very much hope they reach and it sounds like a good few here would like them to reach too for variety on the table.

Also some scale mockups have been added to the end of the KS page. These are photo compositions rather than a straight photo so they give a good idea of the scale difference, but might not be perfect:

The jacks are smaller than I imagined them. Didn’t realize these were the smaller light jacks.

From the comments regarding material:

Privateer Press - Creator
5 hours ago
Currently, our plans are to produce most of the line in metal. Larger, bulkier, more massive pieces may and will be produced in resin. You can pretty much bank on resin for the heavy warjacks. Warjack weapons are currently planned to produce in metal, as are the light warjacks in the starters. This could change based on when the prototypes are delivered to our mold makers. So far, I can report that they have cut molds for the Marcher Worlds starter and everything in that is metal.

Personally, that sounds great to me. Resin on the big jacks (except weapons), metal on the small stuff. I'd take this over PVC anyyyyyyy day.

Like Overread, I really want to hit that alternate solo and light jack sculpt goal. With over 230k in the first 24 hours, I'm hopeful it will get there . Also glad for my sanity that they kept it to a short campaign lol!

The alternate light jacks, from what PP said in the comment, are going to get added as an option for people with higher pledges to just swap in.

$310 for "OUR MOST RECOMMENDED REWARD TIER".

Heh.

The aesthetic here is just not appealing to me - it is everything that is not that good about Warmachine models mixed in with a healthy does of Generic Infinity.

Maybe the rules are really good though?

I like the aesthetic, and I’m intrigued by the rules, but the lack of variety is what’s discouraging me at the moment. That and the prices. I’m too used to expecting a better Kickstarter discount to persuade me to give up my sweet sweet employee discount at the flgs, and I’m just not seeing it here.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Yeah, I was initially planning on bidding for a 'starter' of each faction, so I could share with friends, but this is a bit expensive for that, particularly as I'm looking at upping my reaper bid and have some 40K and Heavy gear projects I want to work on.

Comes to about $200; which is pretty average for a kickstarter. It's just not the overwhelming number of models you get from PVC and honestly... most every kickstarter I've never gotten around to painting has involved an overwhelming number of models in PVC.

That said, I think its a fair price. Not a great price; not outrageously expensive just... about what I'd expect, for better or worse.


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 AduroT wrote:
I like the aesthetic, and I’m intrigued by the rules, but the lack of variety is what’s discouraging me at the moment. That and the prices. I’m too used to expecting a better Kickstarter discount to persuade me to give up my sweet sweet employee discount at the flgs, and I’m just not seeing it here.

The more accustomed to the models the more the differences stand out to me, though the color palettes homogenize things more than I'd like. That said, the heavy jacks seem to have significantly more variance at least in the concept art. I'd really like to see how much they give the factions a distinct identity.


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dyndraig wrote:

The "effort" GW made was hitting gold with the LotR-license boom and in turn investing that into manufacturing. Sadly, that is not an option that is open for most tabletop companies.

This.

It's also worth noting that even if you can afford it, injection mold plastic takes a pretty high volume of sales of every sculpt to make back the cost of the molds. That's why, even as the biggest company in the business, GW is still making some things in resin if they think they won't get the number they need and why characters and the like come with such a ridiculous price tag. As much as we like to think otherwise, this hobby just isn't that big; and most sculpts honestly don't sell enough to break even if they were done in HIPs.