Warcaster: Neo-Mechanika - Kickstarter is live!

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**Khornate25**

I'm backing this up. I love skirmish wargames and sci-fi, and since the death of Dark Age, I was kinda trying to fill the gap in my hobby with w40k. Never liked INfinity. I dislike metal models to begin with.

**Cataphract**

I know my local store is Pre-Ordering but not sure if I should do one separate?

**Khornate25**

Cataphract wrote:
I know my local store is Pre-Ordering but not sure if I should do one separate?

Retail prices tend to be higher than the ones you can get on KS. It's one of the main reason to back a campaign, especially when it is already funded.

**LunarSol**

Talk to the store. Supporting them makes it worth it for them to support the game which will likely get you more players overall.

**ImAGeek**

Khornate25 wrote:
I'm backing this up. I love skirmish wargames and sci-fi, and since the death of Dark Age, I was kinda trying to fill the gap in my hobby with w40k. Never liked INfinity. I dislike metal models to begin with.

You do know these are mostly metal though right?

**RiTides**

These won't be anything like the fiddly metal bits on at least early infinity models, though - everything's chunky

**Shrapnelsmile**

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Cataphract wrote:
I know my local store is Pre-Ordering but not sure if I should do one separate?

Yes have them "put you down" for what you want -- that is excellent incentive for the store and no risk to you if something happens.

**Overread**

I think PP isn't steep discounting this product line because they are planning to do multiple KS's in quite succession with quick delivery. So there is some discount, but not the insane almost "at cost" discount that some other KS do offer. Plus quite a few KS have come unstuck because they offer things at steep discount - get a massive number of orders to the point where production costs for them go up because now they've got 2 months instead of 1 months worth of production; almost all at-cost price so there's little overhead/buffer to help soften the blow of the increased costs. Not to mention any increases due to unforeseen delays and issues.

PP has got their own income and reserves, but at the same time they've set themselves tight deadlines. They need high sales, but they also need profit in those sales and not such a steep sale price that they scupper their own production potential to meet their deadlines.

**grahamdbailey**

I'm not convinced, however, that the best discounts will be got from backing the KS. I'm sure the usual online discounters may sell it so that it will be as cheap, if not cheaper, to get it from them rather than backing here?

**Overread**

grahamdbailey wrote:
I'm not convinced, however, that the best discounts will be got from backing the KS. I'm sure the usual online discounters may sell it so that it will be as cheap, if not cheaper, to get it from them rather than backing here?

Well they've got the distributor/store KS prices up on the KS. So you can roughly calculate what a store is paying for a block of sets; work out what might be a going rate per set and then you know the stock price. From there you can guess at what the store might charge for it. You know they won't sell it for less than the price they paid for it (stores only do that on lines they are dropping entirely and its way too early for this game to get close to that).

**Nostromodamus**

grahamdbailey wrote:
I'm not convinced, however, that the best discounts will be got from backing the KS. I'm sure the usual online discounters may sell it so that it will be as cheap, if not cheaper, to get it from them rather than backing here?

Yeah I’m sure it will all be in a mini market sale for 80% off next year like most of PP’s products.

**Boss Salvage**

Nostromodamus wrote:
Yeah I’m sure it will all be in a mini market sale for 80% off next year like most of PP’s products.

Just noting that PP stuff that came out in the last few years is always hella expensive on MM, haven't seen it discounted past the mandatory 15%, and believe me I've been watching. It's just the ancient / meta-bad stuff that's been dunked over and over.

**RiTides**

Yeah, I think they adjusted course on that hard since after a while it made no sense to buy locally. Not sure if that really had the desired effect, but it does make it less attractive to sit out the KS (although not so much that no one will buy in later - the mistake of overly discounting KS offerings on a wargame, imo).

**Vertrucio**

Yeah, not knocking them for not discounting the KS much, if at all. It's a big mistake so many KS runners make to get backers and end up not having any left to run a stable business.

But knowing how miserly PP was with money directly, sometimes I wonder if it's really going where it needs to.

**highlord tamburlaine**

The super steep discounts haven't happened on any of the recent stuff. I keep checking.

I really like the designs. Marcher Worlds have started to grow on me. Giving me a Tau auxiliary vibe.

I want more bang for my buck though. I don't need CMON levels of crazy model piles (I don't mind though) but I need a bit more to entice me.

**Quasistellar**

LunarSol wrote:

It's also worth noting that even if you can afford it, injection mold plastic takes a pretty high volume of sales of every sculpt to make back the cost of the molds. That's why, even as the biggest company in the business, GW is still making some things in resin if they think they won't get the number they need and why characters and the like come with such a ridiculous price tag. As much as we like to think otherwise, this hobby just isn't that big; and most sculpts honestly don't sell enough to break even if they were done in HIPs.

**Vertrucio**

Just look at FFG's Legion. They started with semi-soft castable plastic despite the

That said, there are desktop plastic production technologies coming around the bend, but to get them to high mid volume now requires more investment than a miniature game studio can provide.

**powerfamiliar**

highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I want more bang for my buck though. I don't need CMON levels of crazy model piles (I don't mind though) but I need a bit more to entice me.

I expected (and was ready to back) at an Infinity like price point. The two player starter is literally double (quick Amazon check). And based on the rule book is seems an Organized Play force will be significantly larger than I expected. 15 units+3 heroes, the current starters come with 4 units. So far is seems like stretch goals might add 1, 2 if lucky minis to the value.

**Kanluwen**

powerfamiliar wrote:
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I want more bang for my buck though. I don't need CMON levels of crazy model piles (I don't mind though) but I need a bit more to entice me.

I expected (and was ready to back) at an Infinity like price point. The two player starter is literally double (quick Amazon check).

Well, there's your problem right there. You're looking on Amazon, which tends to have things fairly deeply discounted from weird storefronts on the Infinity side of things.

And which two player starter are you looking at? Icestorm? Red Veil?(which retails for $99) Coldfront? Wildfire?(whopping $129) Because each of those has different price points.

And based on the rule book is seems an Organized Play force will be significantly larger than I expected. 15 units+3 heroes, the current starters come with 4 units. So far is seems like stretch goals might add 1, 2 if lucky minis to the value.

From what it reads, it is "up to" 15 models.

Current starters come with 4 units, but that's what these actually are: 1 player starters. The Head to Head pledge level spells out that it's just two of the single player pledge levels bundled together.

**powerfamiliar**

Kanluwen wrote:
powerfamiliar wrote:
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I want more bang for my buck though. I don't need CMON levels of crazy model piles (I don't mind though) but I need a bit more to entice me.

I expected (and was ready to back) at an Infinity like price point. The two player starter is literally double (quick Amazon check).

Well, there's your problem right there. You're looking on Amazon, which tends to have things fairly deeply discounted from weird storefronts on the Infinity side of things.

And which two player starter are you looking at? Icestorm? Red Veil?(which retails for $99) Coldfront? Wildfire?(whopping $129) Because each of those has different price points.

And based on the rule book is seems an Organized Play force will be significantly larger than I expected. 15 units+3 heroes, the current starters come with 4 units. So far is seems like stretch goals might add 1, 2 if lucky minis to the value.

From what it reads, it is "up to" 15 models.

Current starters come with 4 units, but that's what these actually are: 1 player starters. The Head to Head pledge level spells out that it's just two of the single player pledge levels bundled together.

I don’t know much about Infinity apart from liking the aesthetics, so I just looked at the first hit for “infinity starter” (well second, first is a sponsored car part). It appears to be Icestorm for $71 (with free shipping).

When it comes to the 15 unit thing, from the rule book it felt like your extra units are kinda like a sideboard in MTG, which is also “up to 15”, but I’ve never seen anyone show up at a local event (or higher) without the full 15. Or how WMH armies are “up to 2 forces”, but no one shows up with one. I assume when organized play kicks off the vast majority of players will have the full 15 units and 3 heroes in their list, and those who don’t will fee disadvantaged.

**Da Boss**

Nope. 70 dollars for 6 miniatures is crazytown, I am not interested. Do not much like the aesthetic, do not trust PP as a company not to mess it up.

Still, better if it succeeds for people who are into it, so I wish them luck. Would be sad to see the company tank.

**Overread**

Don't forget with MTG having 15 cards or not in a sideboard doesn't really impact game length in a measurable way. Meanwhile in a wargame putting 5 models down per side produces a very different game and very different speed of game to putting 15 models down per side.

That's before you add in that some wargames have different rule sets for different scales to adjust things to suit variation in scale.

In short you might well find that the average games settles at being more models; but it won't mean that there are never smaller games nor demand for smaller games. Plus when the game is brand new, smaller games will be more common anyway as more people will be learning the ropes of the rules and still building up forces.

**LunarSol**

powerfamiliar wrote:

I don’t know much about Infinity apart from liking the aesthetics, so I just looked at the first hit for “infinity starter” (well second, first is a sponsored car part). It appears to be Icestorm for $71 (with free shipping).

FWIW, Icestorm is pretty ancient at this point (6 years), discontinued, and likely to be replaced within the next year. It's cost is something of a product of inflation and even then its a good 66% MSRP. The original box went for $110.

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Overread wrote:

In short you might well find that the average games settles at being more models; but it won't mean that there are never smaller games nor demand for smaller games. Plus when the game is brand new, smaller games will be more common anyway as more people will be learning the ropes of the rules and still building up forces.

I'm not sure how impactful larger forces will actually be on gametime here. The timer on the the game is based on number of activations rather than anything to do with army size. In some regards the system punishes you for spawning too many things, so I suspect it will be pretty easy to play with a 10 unit army, even if your opponent brings a full 15. You're mostly just at a disadvantage of choice.

**Chamberlain**

the comparison pic showing the jacks to be similar volume to wm/h lights really makes the price even worse. I thought they were the size of WM/H heavies.

I read the rules and they look really good. I like monpoc more than wm/h so I like the hybrid of the two.

**AegisGrimm**

I REALLY like the core aesthetic of the models, and have had a Khador warband since the very, very first releases by PP, but there's just too many other indie skirmish games out there giving the same game-size to justify the cost it would take to get a worthwhile sized pledge.

I want a game where you field a warband of 6-10 models with a big mech or two included, but that would be pretty pricey in Warcaster, and right now would have a lot of identically-posed models.

**Mmmpi**

LunarSol wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:
Yeah, I was initially planning on bidding for a 'starter' of each faction, so I could share with friends, but this is a bit expensive for that, particularly as I'm looking at upping my reaper bid and have some 40K and Heavy gear projects I want to work on.

Comes to about $200; which is pretty average for a kickstarter. It's just not the overwhelming number of models you get from PVC and honestly... most every kickstarter I've never gotten around to painting has involved an overwhelming number of models in PVC.

That said, I think its a fair price. Not a great price; not outrageously expensive just... about what I'd expect, for better or worse.

It is a fair price, but it's a "I'm building a small personal army" fair price.

Right now, I'm inclined to wait and see if my group is going to pick it up first. I already have a few games I'm promoting, and don't really need to add to that list ATM. I'm not too worried about missing this, as so far the alternate stuff isn't anything I'm worried about missing, and the other unlocks are things I don't typically care about.

**alextroy**

Overread wrote:
grahamdbailey wrote:
I'm not convinced, however, that the best discounts will be got from backing the KS. I'm sure the usual online discounters may sell it so that it will be as cheap, if not cheaper, to get it from them rather than backing here?

Well they've got the distributor/store KS prices up on the KS. So you can roughly calculate what a store is paying for a block of sets; work out what might be a going rate per set and then you know the stock price. From there you can guess at what the store might charge for it. You know they won't sell it for less than the price they paid for it (stores only do that on lines they are dropping entirely and its way too early for this game to get close to that).

If you are looking for a deal on Warcaster, the KS is not the place to go. Per PP themselves on the first KS Update:

To be totally transparent, we make about the same margin on an individual reward pledge as we do from a retailer pledge. So, if you’re more comfortable purchasing through your local game store, we encourage you to encourage your LGS manager to get behind this Kickstarter and stock the product line. Retailers who back the project will be shipped their rewards at the same time we ship to individual backers, so there won’t be any lag time if you’re getting your goods from a store that backs our campaign. We will, however, ensure that rewards are sent to all backers (retailers included) before product is shipped for a general public release.

...

We have priced our rewards in line with how we currently price our products for general public release. After what we pay out in commissions to Kickstarter, credit card processing and shipping costs, we make about the same as we do if we sold the products traditionally, but Kickstarter gives us a platform and toolset to manage our business proactively instead of reactively, and to make sure that we’re making the right decisions so that we can keep achieving the number one goal, which is delivering you the best game experience and models that we can.

So, you are paying retail on the KS. Love it or hate it, they aren't shying away form it.

And FYI, the Retailer Starter Package is $630 for 18 Command Boxes. That's $35 a Command Box, which is half the $70 Command Starter Sets cost.

**powerfamiliar**

Line of Sight posted a KS guide.

TLDR:
For Skirmish it'll be $175-$185, depending on faction. For full sized games $335-$345.

**oomiestompa**

alextroy wrote:

And FYI, the Retailer Starter Package is $630 for 18 Command Boxes. That's $35 a Command Box, which is half the $70 Command Starter Sets cost.

The store will still be selling it at $70. That's how they get their cut.

**BobtheInquisitor**

The store will still be selling it at $70 for the first few months. Then at 15% off. Then at 30% off at every sale period. Then at 30% clearance sale. Then at the more realistic 50% off clearance sale. Then at the market price of 80% off when they actually want to get rid of it.