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pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
...I'm beginning to wonder if anyone on this board has ever met or even been a child.

My experience of playing 40k at 12 mostly consisted of a friend getting mad at me about how unbeatably strong Mechdar were (mid 4e) and eventually ragequitting the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
How exactly do you do that?

Write your own. There are a lot of hurdles to making 40k better that are just built into the basic core rules, but there are really simple patches (one-Battalion-only, Highlander, stratagem banlists, the 25% rule, hit-mod caps...) that can improve casual play.

No I mean how do you boycott rules in a way that's obviously distinct to GW than boycotting a model. If I refuse to buy a model because it has bad rules that's indistinguishable from me not buying a model because it's overpriced or ugly.

Oh. You can't. GW gives no f***s about what anyone thinks of their rules because people still buy models. You can't change GW's behaviour by boycotting rules, all you can change is whether you have fun with the game.

 Elbows wrote:

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
That is more or less how companies, countries, religions and any big group work. Try walking around mediolan in a Latzio shirt, claiming AC Milan is not the one and only.

Of course every group wants to dominate every other group, and wants to see things done their way. That is why we get wars on a state and neighbour families scale, and everything in between.

Can you stop with this might is right nonsense every other post. You are incorrect and humanity would be in a sorry state indeed if you were correct. This is a wargaming forum and people do not want to be debunking this toxic nonsense constantly.

Eh, Karol is wrong about a lot of stuff - but he's pretty spot on with this.

No he isn't.

 Elbows wrote:

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
That is more or less how companies, countries, religions and any big group work. Try walking around mediolan in a Latzio shirt, claiming AC Milan is not the one and only.

Of course every group wants to dominate every other group, and wants to see things done their way. That is why we get wars on a state and neighbour families scale, and everything in between.

Can you stop with this might is right nonsense every other post. You are incorrect and humanity would be in a sorry state indeed if you were correct. This is a wargaming forum and people do not want to be debunking this toxic nonsense constantly.

Eh, Karol is wrong about a lot of stuff - but he's pretty spot on with this.

Yeah no, not even close good god.

I didn't say you needed to agree.

Elbows wrote:

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
That is more or less how companies, countries, religions and any big group work. Try walking around mediolan in a Latzio shirt, claiming AC Milan is not the one and only.

Of course every group wants to dominate every other group, and wants to see things done their way. That is why we get wars on a state and neighbour families scale, and everything in between.

Can you stop with this might is right nonsense every other post. You are incorrect and humanity would be in a sorry state indeed if you were correct. This is a wargaming forum and people do not want to be debunking this toxic nonsense constantly.

Eh, Karol is wrong about a lot of stuff - but he's pretty spot on with this.

Yeah nah. Hard disagree on that.

Jesus some of you people are really over the top.

How are these misleading statements? Did any of you other people read the article or did you just jump on the rage bandwagon?

Despite their killing power in melee, Howling Banshees and Incubi come with a low Toughness value and only a single Wound. This means that simply throwing them at the enemy lines will likely see them wiped out having only achieved limited success. That being the case, there are two main considerations when taking the fight to the enemy with the Aeldari – picking the correct target(s) to attack and getting there safely.

The best targets for Aeldari melee specialists are small, elite units of enemies – preferably comprising models with a single Wound – so that you can hopefully wipe them out on the turn that you charge to avoid suffering their return attacks. Avoid engaging enemy vehicles* or large units of expendable infantry such as Ork Boyz or Termagants, as you’ll likely end up getting bogged down and hit by a fatal counter-attack. These units should be eliminated by units more suited to engaging hordes, such as Wyches or Striking Scorpions in close combat and Kabalite Warriors or Dire Avengers at range.

So Banshees aren't Primaris, so what? Did GW make claims they would murder everything they hit?

But let's think about it.

5 Primaris with a TH - 101 points. Certainly scary.
9 2D on unmod 6tW & +1A w/i 3" of OBJ Banshees w/ 1 Executioner, War Shout, -2A to one model - 102 points.

Banshees have a 72% success rate on charges out of deepstrike. On the table they can move 8", CP advance 6" and charge an average of 10" - so 21 to 24" effectively. They cannot be overwatched.

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
3 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 3 = 0.8 //DD3 weapon so leaving it at 3 in the math with the +1 proc
3 * .666 * .333 * .833 * 2 = 1.1

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 2 = 3
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 = 1.5

3 Primaris are dead

3 * .5 * .666 * .5 = 0.5
2 * .333 * .833 = 0.6 // TH

One banshee dies - two under full rerolls to hit for marines. If the Primaris were on an objective they would likely all die.

It seems that should someone be so inclined they could find ways to use Banshees (like overwatch blocking to get spears into Cents or Aggressors), but they're not killing things like Centurions (or Primaris) so I guess they're trash.

You do have a good point though. They are ridiculously priced.

Grey40k wrote:
...snip...
Next we should be telling them to just bang them against each other instead of using GW rules because that might be more balanced.

I had a little chuckle at this because banging the models together while making pew pew noises would be horribly unbalanced. A lot of Xenos and Daemon models are terribly flimsy, while a properly glued together Land Raider or Russ could be used to bludgeon goats to death.

The Newman wrote:

Grey40k wrote:
...snip...
Next we should be telling them to just bang them against each other instead of using GW rules because that might be more balanced.

I had a little chuckle at this because banging the models together while making pew pew noises would be horribly unbalanced. A lot of Xenos and Daemon models are terribly flimsy, while a properly glued together Land Raider or Russ could be used to bludgeon goats to death.

Dreadsock can bludgeon your opponent to death. Not a lot of xenos lead in that weight class. Although some is spiky. I’d not want my metal avatar thrown at me.

Might may not be right, but right without might is in for a tough time.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus some of you people are really over the top.

How are these misleading statements? Did any of you other people read the article or did you just jump on the rage bandwagon?

Despite their killing power in melee, Howling Banshees and Incubi come with a low Toughness value and only a single Wound. This means that simply throwing them at the enemy lines will likely see them wiped out having only achieved limited success. That being the case, there are two main considerations when taking the fight to the enemy with the Aeldari – picking the correct target(s) to attack and getting there safely.

The best targets for Aeldari melee specialists are small, elite units of enemies – preferably comprising models with a single Wound – so that you can hopefully wipe them out on the turn that you charge to avoid suffering their return attacks. Avoid engaging enemy vehicles* or large units of expendable infantry such as Ork Boyz or Termagants, as you’ll likely end up getting bogged down and hit by a fatal counter-attack. These units should be eliminated by units more suited to engaging hordes, such as Wyches or Striking Scorpions in close combat and Kabalite Warriors or Dire Avengers at range.

So Banshees aren't Primaris, so what? Did GW make claims they would murder everything they hit?

But let's think about it.

5 Primaris with a TH - 101 points. Certainly scary.
9 2D on unmod 6tW & +1A w/i 3" of OBJ Banshees w/ 1 Executioner, War Shout, -2A to one model - 102 points.

Banshees have a 72% success rate on charges out of deepstrike. On the table they can move 8", CP advance 6" and charge an average of 10" - so 21 to 24" effectively. They cannot be overwatched.

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
3 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 3 = 0.8 //DD3 weapon so leaving it at 3 in the math with the +1 proc
3 * .666 * .333 * .833 * 2 = 1.1

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 2 = 3
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 = 1.5

3 Primaris are dead

3 * .5 * .666 * .5 = 0.5
2 * .333 * .833 = 0.6 // TH

One banshee dies - two under full rerolls to hit for marines. If the Primaris were on an objective they would likely all die.

It seems that should someone be so inclined they could find ways to use Banshees (like overwatch blocking to get spears into Cents or Aggressors), but they're not killing things like Centurions (or Primaris) so I guess they're trash.

You do have a good point though. They are ridiculously priced.

How do you get a 72% charge out of Deepstrike?

Why are you arming the Intercessors with a Thunderhammer, when they're generally better off with more bodies and a Chainsword?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus some of you people are really over the top.

How are these misleading statements? Did any of you other people read the article or did you just jump on the rage bandwagon?

Despite their killing power in melee, Howling Banshees and Incubi come with a low Toughness value and only a single Wound. This means that simply throwing them at the enemy lines will likely see them wiped out having only achieved limited success. That being the case, there are two main considerations when taking the fight to the enemy with the Aeldari – picking the correct target(s) to attack and getting there safely.

The best targets for Aeldari melee specialists are small, elite units of enemies – preferably comprising models with a single Wound – so that you can hopefully wipe them out on the turn that you charge to avoid suffering their return attacks. Avoid engaging enemy vehicles* or large units of expendable infantry such as Ork Boyz or Termagants, as you’ll likely end up getting bogged down and hit by a fatal counter-attack. These units should be eliminated by units more suited to engaging hordes, such as Wyches or Striking Scorpions in close combat and Kabalite Warriors or Dire Avengers at range.

So Banshees aren't Primaris, so what? Did GW make claims they would murder everything they hit?

But let's think about it.

5 Primaris with a TH - 101 points. Certainly scary.
9 2D on unmod 6tW & +1A w/i 3" of OBJ Banshees w/ 1 Executioner, War Shout, -2A to one model - 102 points.

Banshees have a 72% success rate on charges out of deepstrike. On the table they can move 8", CP advance 6" and charge an average of 10" - so 21 to 24" effectively. They cannot be overwatched.

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
3 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 3 = 0.8 //DD3 weapon so leaving it at 3 in the math with the +1 proc
3 * .666 * .333 * .833 * 2 = 1.1

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 2 = 3
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 = 1.5

3 Primaris are dead

3 * .5 * .666 * .5 = 0.5
2 * .333 * .833 = 0.6 // TH

One banshee dies - two under full rerolls to hit for marines. If the Primaris were on an objective they would likely all die.

It seems that should someone be so inclined they could find ways to use Banshees (like overwatch blocking to get spears into Cents or Aggressors), but they're not killing things like Centurions (or Primaris) so I guess they're trash.

You do have a good point though. They are ridiculously priced.

How do you get a 72% charge out of Deepstrike?

Why are you arming the Intercessors with a Thunderhammer, when they're generally better off with more bodies and a Chainsword?

To make the math of this story work of course, duh.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jesus some of you people are really over the top.

How are these misleading statements? Did any of you other people read the article or did you just jump on the rage bandwagon?

Despite their killing power in melee, Howling Banshees and Incubi come with a low Toughness value and only a single Wound. This means that simply throwing them at the enemy lines will likely see them wiped out having only achieved limited success. That being the case, there are two main considerations when taking the fight to the enemy with the Aeldari – picking the correct target(s) to attack and getting there safely.

The best targets for Aeldari melee specialists are small, elite units of enemies – preferably comprising models with a single Wound – so that you can hopefully wipe them out on the turn that you charge to avoid suffering their return attacks. Avoid engaging enemy vehicles* or large units of expendable infantry such as Ork Boyz or Termagants, as you’ll likely end up getting bogged down and hit by a fatal counter-attack. These units should be eliminated by units more suited to engaging hordes, such as Wyches or Striking Scorpions in close combat and Kabalite Warriors or Dire Avengers at range.

So Banshees aren't Primaris, so what? Did GW make claims they would murder everything they hit?

But let's think about it.

5 Primaris with a TH - 101 points. Certainly scary.
9 2D on unmod 6tW & +1A w/i 3" of OBJ Banshees w/ 1 Executioner, War Shout, -2A to one model - 102 points.

Banshees have a 72% success rate on charges out of deepstrike. On the table they can move 8", CP advance 6" and charge an average of 10" - so 21 to 24" effectively. They cannot be overwatched.

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
3 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 3 = 0.8 //DD3 weapon so leaving it at 3 in the math with the +1 proc
3 * .666 * .333 * .833 * 2 = 1.1

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 2 = 3
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 = 1.5

3 Primaris are dead

3 * .5 * .666 * .5 = 0.5
2 * .333 * .833 = 0.6 // TH

One banshee dies - two under full rerolls to hit for marines. If the Primaris were on an objective they would likely all die.

It seems that should someone be so inclined they could find ways to use Banshees (like overwatch blocking to get spears into Cents or Aggressors), but they're not killing things like Centurions (or Primaris) so I guess they're trash.

You do have a good point though. They are ridiculously priced.

How do you get a 72% charge out of Deepstrike?

Why are you arming the Intercessors with a Thunderhammer, when they're generally better off with more bodies and a Chainsword?

Also you just assumed id waste a craftworld trait detatchment and 1 cp to give the banshees a second ability, and a further 1 CP to D S them.. And all this just to make this 102pt unit perform... that seems.. unrealistic no? Why dont you throw in that id invest ghostwalk, enhance, and enrevate from 3 character slots sources plus a doom? While we at it lets say ive doomed and jinxed the primaris marines.

This is the same GW whose "tactics" articles used to include putting 4 different heavy weapons in Marine Dev Squads.

This is during editions (most editions of the game, come to think of it) where squads all had to fire at the same target.

They don't play the same 40k as everyone else. This is why they're so bad at writing rules.

ccs wrote:


To make the math of this story work of course, duh.

It's not like the LVO winner wasn't packing TH on his units, right guys? ....guys?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:


Also you just assumed id waste a craftworld trait detatchment and 1 cp to give the banshees a second ability, and a further 1 CP to D S them.. And all this just to make this 102pt unit perform... that seems.. unrealistic no? Why dont you throw in that id invest ghostwalk, enhance, and enrevate from 3 character slots sources plus a doom? While we at it lets say ive doomed and jinxed the primaris marines.

I mean you dont need warshout unless you expect to get hit or care about survival. It wouldn't be hard to squeeze a patrol in if you really needed them.

And you'd walk them in, because I keep forgetting the +3 is after advance only.

3x5 is 165 points.

The point being it doesn't need to be a monolith of a unit to be worth it.

If you wanted to doom Cents/Aggs, and shoot them with Spears, and OW block with banshees, and charge with spears then go for it.

Units dont have to live in a vacuum.

If people can accomplish the same goal with other units, great.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

It's not like the LVO winner wasn't packing TH on his units, right guys? ....guys?

Don't know & don't care.

As a personal anecdote on how badly priced these releases are, I work in a UK FLGS.

Preorders for Banshees, Incubi, Jain Zar and Drazhar went live at 10am GMT.

At 7pm when I left, we had 0 (zero) preorders for the new stuff.

We offer 20% off, and still couldn't get a sale in 9 hours.

I'm on my way back in now, I'll edit to update how many orders we've taken overnight for them. I'm not expecting many.

*EDIT* Yeah still zero.

Sudowoodo1 wrote:
As a personal anecdote on how badly priced these releases are, I work in a UK FLGS.

Preorders for Banshees, Incubi, Jain Zar and Drazhar went live at 10am GMT.

At 7pm when I left, we had 0 (zero) preorders for the new stuff.

We offer 20% off, and still couldn't get a sale in 9 hours.

I'm on my way back in now, I'll edit to update how many orders we've taken overnight for them. I'm not expecting many.

Ooof , that is impressing, considering how itching eldar Players were for new aspects.

I'm genuinely surprised at the pricing. Really feeling good that I got Drazhar and Incubi from a bits store when BotP came out for £20 and £25 respectively.

Dai wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If GW put up articles on their community site that are gak, surely it is not a big deal if people want to talk about them?

Giving new players bad advice to sell them over priced miniatures is not very nice. As people said, just sell them on their strong points - the designs and the background.

Of course. I suppose I am reacting to the over-reactions like "snake oil salesman" etc. It's just capitalism, I have no idea how true or not what they say is within the context of all the "metas" and what have you but by all means call them out when necessary. On the other hand constant complaining and excessive language will lead to a "cried wolf" situation. Or possibly put people off getting into the game at all which I am sure most of us don't really want.

First, snake oil salesmen were business men too and for all the honesty of those articles they might as well say the new banshee models cure gout while they are at it. Banshee-cura ! For second point of order, the absurd price will get people to not get into the game at all as the price point is nuts for this squad so they better have magical cure all properties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Argive wrote:
considering our fictional kid would drop £32.50 on 5 banshees while the hormogaunt kid would get around 18 hormogaunts for the same price tag....

The price of banshees isn't really the discussion because you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks its acceptable.

Edit: I also like that now our fictional, tournament going, meta chasing 10 year old has his own income?

That fictional kid would have to have his own income as his fictional parents would laugh him right out the fictional room if he asked for that money for that purchase and his fictional feelings would be hurt as well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ccs wrote:


To make the math of this story work of course, duh.

It's not like the LVO winner wasn't packing TH on his units, right guys? ....guys?

On 10 man units though.

The problem is this combined arms approach inevitably throws up chances to go wrong. Your banshees can fail the charge. Your other unit (spears or otherwise) can fail the charge. You can roll a bit cold on damage output.

These are problems with assault generally - but its why good assault units have to skew the damage so high that if they make the charge its hopefully all over. In this scenario its entirely possible you bounce off the Primaris, who then run a bit hot and do disproportionate damage back. 5 man squads are instagibbed by almost anything - and arguably 10 man is still too few to be useful. If you could take units of 20 they might at least have some weight on the table.

If 10 Banshees run into say 10 Intercessors or 30 Boys they do a relatively small amount of damage and will then get smashed by the end of your opponents turn. If they run into something with T6 they do very little damage. Stopping shooting on ye olde guard tanks that have to fall back and be useless is nice, but its quite a niche thing, and you could just put your points into stuff that would kill things. If they are ever in LoS of something and not in cover, they will just get shot off the table, because defensively they are fire warriors at a 50%+ points premium. And if the squad is knocked down to 4-5 guys, yes you still ignore overwatch/tie things up, but you quickly reach the point where you don't kill *anything* and almost anything swinging back will kill you.

The argument I guess becomes "just take 3 units of 10 if you want a blob. 20~ banshees will mess up a 10 man Intercessor squad just as much as a 10 man unit messes up a 5 man intercessor squad". True - but thats just more charges with the potential to fail. More units you need to hide out of LoS. You are not getting the concentration of killing power, and they don't stack as well with stratagems etc.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

But let's think about it.

Spoiler:

5 Primaris with a TH - 101 points. Certainly scary.
9 2D on unmod 6tW & +1A w/i 3" of OBJ Banshees w/ 1 Executioner, War Shout, -2A to one model - 102 points.

Banshees have a 72% success rate on charges out of deepstrike. On the table they can move 8", CP advance 6" and charge an average of 10" - so 21 to 24" effectively. They cannot be overwatched.

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
3 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 3 = 0.8 //DD3 weapon so leaving it at 3 in the math with the +1 proc
3 * .666 * .333 * .833 * 2 = 1.1

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 2 = 3
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 = 1.5

3 Primaris are dead

3 * .5 * .666 * .5 = 0.5
2 * .333 * .833 = 0.6 // TH

One banshee dies - two under full rerolls to hit for marines. If the Primaris were on an objective they would likely all die.

It seems that should someone be so inclined they could find ways to use Banshees (like overwatch blocking to get spears into Cents or Aggressors), but they're not killing things like Centurions (or Primaris) so I guess they're trash.

You do have a good point though. They are ridiculously priced.

I was a bit surprised, so I run myself the numbers using:

https://warhammer-stats-engine.herokuapp.com/

4 intercessors for 85 points (troop) and 1 sarge with a chain sword vs 7 banshees and an exarch with executioner and graceful avoidance (91 points).

Suppose the banshees get the charge.

14 attacks from the banshees for 2.59 wounds (7*2 attacks, 4/6 of hitting, 2/6 of wounding, 5/6 not being saved by armor = 4/6*2/6*5/6*14 -- I double checked just in case).
3 attacks from the exarch for 1.39 wounds

For a total of almost 4 wounds, so let's say 4 wounds and 2 marines dead (we have sarge and 2 more guys alive). A possible issue here would be high variance.

Now the intercessors hit back; all survivors have same profile of attack so I add up the attacks.

8 attacks (4+4) for less than 1 wound.

Obviously banshees can get shot to pieces on approach and so on, but they didn't do terribly in that melee. A different issue is whether they are cost effective compared to other options.

Are we going to have to eat crow here, folks?

Or did I do anything wrong? Still rusty!

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sudowoodo1 wrote:
As a personal anecdote on how badly priced these releases are, I work in a UK FLGS.

Preorders for Banshees, Incubi, Jain Zar and Drazhar went live at 10am GMT.

At 7pm when I left, we had 0 (zero) preorders for the new stuff.

We offer 20% off, and still couldn't get a sale in 9 hours.

I'm on my way back in now, I'll edit to update how many orders we've taken overnight for them. I'm not expecting many.

Ooof , that is impressing, considering how itching eldar Players were for new aspects.

Problem is, Spears aside, the CC Aspects are 2 or 3 editions behind every other factions melee troops with low number of attacks with low damage output, being made of tissue and glitter, Speesah Marines have long been a struggle for them but 2W marines is a brick wall

but as ever its a first craftworld problem as the codex has a lot of better options that a few duff units dont really matter

Grey40k wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

But let's think about it.

Spoiler:

5 Primaris with a TH - 101 points. Certainly scary.
9 2D on unmod 6tW & +1A w/i 3" of OBJ Banshees w/ 1 Executioner, War Shout, -2A to one model - 102 points.

Banshees have a 72% success rate on charges out of deepstrike. On the table they can move 8", CP advance 6" and charge an average of 10" - so 21 to 24" effectively. They cannot be overwatched.

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
3 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 3 = 0.8 //DD3 weapon so leaving it at 3 in the math with the +1 proc
3 * .666 * .333 * .833 * 2 = 1.1

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 2 = 3
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 = 1.5

3 Primaris are dead

3 * .5 * .666 * .5 = 0.5
2 * .333 * .833 = 0.6 // TH

One banshee dies - two under full rerolls to hit for marines. If the Primaris were on an objective they would likely all die.

It seems that should someone be so inclined they could find ways to use Banshees (like overwatch blocking to get spears into Cents or Aggressors), but they're not killing things like Centurions (or Primaris) so I guess they're trash.

You do have a good point though. They are ridiculously priced.

I was a bit surprised, so I run myself the numbers using:

https://warhammer-stats-engine.herokuapp.com/

4 intercessors for 85 points (troop) and 1 sarge with a chain sword vs 7 banshees and an exarch with executioner and graceful avoidance (91 points).

Suppose the banshees get the charge.

14 attacks from the banshees for 2.59 wounds (7*2 attacks, 4/6 of hitting, 2/6 of wounding, 5/6 not being saved by armor = 4/6*2/6*5/6*14 -- I double checked just in case).
3 attacks from the exarch for 1.39 wounds

For a total of almost 4 wounds, so let's say 4 wounds and 2 marines dead (we have sarge and 2 more guys alive). A possible issue here would be high variance.

Now the intercessors hit back; all survivors have same profile of attack so I add up the attacks.

8 attacks (4+4) for less than 1 wound.

Obviously banshees can get shot to pieces on approach and so on, but they didn't do terribly in that melee. A different issue is whether they are cost effective compared to other options.

Are we going to have to eat crow here, folks?

Or did I do anything wrong? Still rusty!

Intercessors have 3 attacks on the charge or when being charged... because marines are just not powerful enough without angels of death.. So thats 6 for the troopers and another 4 for the sargt with chainsword.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sudowoodo1 wrote:
As a personal anecdote on how badly priced these releases are, I work in a UK FLGS.

Preorders for Banshees, Incubi, Jain Zar and Drazhar went live at 10am GMT.

At 7pm when I left, we had 0 (zero) preorders for the new stuff.

We offer 20% off, and still couldn't get a sale in 9 hours.

I'm on my way back in now, I'll edit to update how many orders we've taken overnight for them. I'm not expecting many.

Ooof , that is impressing, considering how itching eldar Players were for new aspects.

Problem is, Spears aside, the CC Aspects are 2 or 3 editions behind every other factions melee troops with low number of attacks with low damage output, being made of tissue and glitter, Speesah Marines have long been a struggle for them but 2W marines is a brick wall

but as ever its a first craftworld problem as the codex has a lot of better options that a few duff units dont really matter

I guess still, it's signature units and that is a real shame.

Grey40k wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

But let's think about it.

Spoiler:

5 Primaris with a TH - 101 points. Certainly scary.
9 2D on unmod 6tW & +1A w/i 3" of OBJ Banshees w/ 1 Executioner, War Shout, -2A to one model - 102 points.

Banshees have a 72% success rate on charges out of deepstrike. On the table they can move 8", CP advance 6" and charge an average of 10" - so 21 to 24" effectively. They cannot be overwatched.

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
3 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 3 = 0.8 //DD3 weapon so leaving it at 3 in the math with the +1 proc
3 * .666 * .333 * .833 * 2 = 1.1

//splitting wounds between 1 and 2 damage procs
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 * 2 = 3
16 * .666 * .167 * .833 = 1.5

3 Primaris are dead

3 * .5 * .666 * .5 = 0.5
2 * .333 * .833 = 0.6 // TH

One banshee dies - two under full rerolls to hit for marines. If the Primaris were on an objective they would likely all die.

It seems that should someone be so inclined they could find ways to use Banshees (like overwatch blocking to get spears into Cents or Aggressors), but they're not killing things like Centurions (or Primaris) so I guess they're trash.

You do have a good point though. They are ridiculously priced.

I was a bit surprised, so I run myself the numbers using:

https://warhammer-stats-engine.herokuapp.com/

4 intercessors for 85 points (troop) and 1 sarge with a chain sword vs 7 banshees and an exarch with executioner and graceful avoidance (91 points).

Suppose the banshees get the charge.

14 attacks from the banshees for 2.59 wounds (7*2 attacks, 4/6 of hitting, 2/6 of wounding, 5/6 not being saved by armor = 4/6*2/6*5/6*14 -- I double checked just in case).
3 attacks from the exarch for 1.39 wounds

For a total of almost 4 wounds, so let's say 4 wounds and 2 marines dead (we have sarge and 2 more guys alive). A possible issue here would be high variance.

Now the intercessors hit back; all survivors have same profile of attack so I add up the attacks.

8 attacks (4+4) for less than 1 wound.

Obviously banshees can get shot to pieces on approach and so on, but they didn't do terribly in that melee. A different issue is whether they are cost effective compared to other options.

Are we going to have to eat crow here, folks?

Or did I do anything wrong? Still rusty!

I'm getting different numbers for both sides running the math.

Banshees cause 4.3 wounds:
14 × 4/6 × 2/6 × 5/6 = 2.6 wounds
3 × 4/6 × 3/6 × 5/6 x 2 = 1.7 wounds*

* assuming you always roll a 2 damage result. In reality there's a 1/3 chance of rolling a 1, but that would complicate the calculation by a bit.

So 2 primaris die. The remaining 2 + chainsword sarge get 11 attacks in return, killing 1.6 banshee.
11 × 4/6 × 4/6 × 3/6 × 4/6 (fnp) = 1.6*
1.8 banshees die if they took warshout instead.

* assuming no rerolls

So abstracting this the banshees kill 37 points worth of intercessors, and suffer 18 points worth of damage in return.


I do wonder how likely/meaningful this scenario is. Why are they charging a 5 man troop unit, a unit they on average can't wipe even with a full 10 elf squad? How haven't they been shot up before arriving (especially given that the opponent knows their fnp is melee only)? Is it ok that 8 banshees are only dropping 2 numarines? Is it ok this is all they accomplish before the marines inevitably fall back and some other 5 man unit evaporates what remains of the banshees?

You get different numbers for two reasons: I) you didn’t roll damage with the exarch, II) I forgot marines get +1 attack also when defending from a charge.

Truth is, you d probably be better off running 2x5 banshees for exarchs if you are not planning on buffing then.

Here we go, again:

4 intercessors for 85 points (troop) and 1 sarge with a chain sword vs 7 banshees and an exarch with executioner and graceful avoidance (91 points).



Outcome: 2 banshees dead, intercessors wiped.

Suppose instead that we fight 5 banshees vs 5 intercessors (assume you are trying to max exarchs and tie more units).


Outcome: pretty bloody affair that can swing either way.

My favorite strategy would be running 3x5 units of banshees against 2x5 units of intercessors (same points) then 2v1 one squad for a quick win, and stay in prolongued and cost efficient combat with the other.

I see some issues here:

1) Marines can both shoot and fight relatively effectively; i.e. they do not insta crumble when charged by banshees. Banshees can only melee and can only put damage reliably on at most MEQ.

2) Banshees are very vulnerable to marine fire, and generally speaking are less point efficient at tanking damage.

3) They don't feel elite.

4) Very high variance in performance for banshees (5+ FNP, wound on high rolls due to low strength).

Yes, you'll see 10 man intercessors and the comparison goes out of whack without adding more support.

JZ can get 5 or 6 attacks if Intercessors are in a line. If they are clumped she'll get 10.

10 * .833 * .888 * .833 * 2 = 12 (6 dead; 3 dead with only 5 models in range). Highly dependent on random damage, however.

Those remaining 7 marines with pillowfists and a chainsword can put 1 wound on her. And if they moved in to attack then she'll get 7 attacks next round. That's 115 points taking on 170 without blinking in a very easy to protect/hide model.

And she potentially guards your banshees from being swing on first in your opponent's turn.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yes, you'll see 10 man intercessors and the comparison goes out of whack without adding more support.

I am not sure that adding bigger squads to intercessors does them much good, in this case. Point by point you'll be able to outplay them.
The problem arises when you realize that you are subject to the rule of 3 and intercessors aren't. Using guardians to shoot intercessors probably isn't super cost effective either.

Banshees can put some hurt on troops, for sure. However, they lack the versatility that marine troops have.

And, finally, they are a elite troop that probably wouldn't be able to deal with elite that well.

For example, against centurions they can barely scratch a wound and only the exarch does decent work (centurions can kill 4 banshees in the 1 round, even without shooting).
They compare poorly to jump pack elites (every melee tourney list seems to rely on them), since those can clear troops, vehicles and characters alike.

And so on. I mean, there is a reason why no winning list carries them in competitive play.

H.B.M.C. wrote:This is the same GW whose "tactics" articles used to include putting 4 different heavy weapons in Marine Dev Squads.

This is during editions (most editions of the game, come to think of it) where squads all had to fire at the same target.

They don't play the same 40k as everyone else. This is why they're so bad at writing rules.

This weekend I re-read an old White Dwarf from around 2003. In an article on how to fight tanks, they advocated distributing your anti-tank firepower among all your units, and only in a 2000+pt game should you have a single unit equipped with dedicated anti-tank weapons.

This was either 3rd or 4th ed, so yeah, no split fire.

Maybe if GW brought in tournament players to write tactics articles we'd get something useful, but they'd never print advice that amounted to 'never take X because it's bad, always take Y because it's underpriced, here's a RAW trick you can do that the designers never thought of'.

Grey40k wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yes, you'll see 10 man intercessors and the comparison goes out of whack without adding more support.

I am not sure that adding bigger squads to intercessors does them much good, in this case. Point by point you'll be able to outplay them.
The problem arises when you realize that you are subject to the rule of 3 and intercessors aren't. Using guardians to shoot intercessors probably isn't super cost effective either.

Banshees can put some hurt on troops, for sure. However, they lack the versatility that marine troops have.

And, finally, they are a elite troop that probably wouldn't be able to deal with elite that well.

For example, against centurions they can barely scratch a wound and only the exarch does decent work (centurions can kill 4 banshees in the 1 round, even without shooting).
They compare poorly to jump pack elites (every melee tourney list seems to rely on them), since those can clear troops, vehicles and characters alike.

And so on. I mean, there is a reason why no winning list carries them in competitive play.

These are all fair statements. What they lack in versatility they make up in raw speed. You won't see them winning top tables, but plenty of people can find their niche.