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Yes, I'd say that they are driven by force composition rather than trying to maximise diversity per sprue, and are so focusing on the core distinctive units you'll need loads of for each force. This will probably result in more distinctive forces, even if the painter in me just wants a small amount of everything!

Yknow it seems like it was an odd choice to rush the veermyn stretch goal/lower the funding target for it when they seem to have absolutely nothing to show on it. Like, great - we unlocked Veermyn, but what is it that I can spend my money on? How many death wheels or whatever do I get in the base box? What comes in the reinforcement box vs the army box? Its hard for me to be excited to pledge for something when its a complete unknown.

 pancakeonions wrote:
I know some complain at this, but I really think they missed the boat not adding some kickstarter exclusive stuff to get folks more excited about pledging. Not exclusive models or things - but like some kickstarter dice (that aren't those boring white dice, enough of those already!) or some upgraded acrylic tokens (hopefully not like the ones that were offered for Firefight which were cheap and crummy). Kickstarter psychology is real man, take advantage of our weak, human foibles!

I did notice that the add-on D8s are (hypothetically) not the ones that come in the starters:



I am of course tempted, but I would be all over acrylic tokens! Give me frivolous-yet-exclusive things to add on, Mantic!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's not ideal. But a 1500 pts army costs the same as a GW box of 6 tanks, so there's that.

Yeah, this is why I wasn't comparing it to LI when it came to price. I'm pretty sure the price for AC will be fairly in line which is more my comparison. Also I simply don't want to build the fiddly LI models. I think they look amazing but god building them will crush my soul.

chaos0xomega wrote:

The reason they aren't "being more clear" is because its not a 10mm game, the infantry are 10mm but the vehicles are at a smaller scale to fit on the sprues - they were actually pretty clear on that point. They hope that they can scale up the vehicles once they go towards final production but it doesn't sound like they have any intention of actually getting them to match the infantry scale, only to get the scale closer.

I don't know how I missed this. I'm used to vehicles looking a bit small next to their miniatures which can be ok as most folks don't realize just how small tanks and APC's are. However, looking closely at the banner picture it does look like they may be SIGNIFICANTLY undersized. Looking at the door on the Plague Mule, it looks like it may be a 6mm vehicle.

Are there any closer up pictures showing the vehicles right alongside miniatures?

I could really use some more 10mm infantry for my other games, but unless this gets rectified, I may be out or at least scaling my pledge back. I've basically got to decide if whatever pledge I make is worth it for the infantry (likely GPCS and Enforcers) alone as the chances of anyone in the club buying in are nil and even though Mauraders and Forgefathers are appealing as factions, I've got no interest in painting up multiple whole armies that aren't in scale with their vehicles.

The sad thing is that it doesn't have to be this way, especially when dealing in small scale and plastic. One of the biggest benefits of smaller scales is that it means you can make FEWER compromises in terms of miniature and terrain sizes. This isn't the 80's/90's anymore and folks should expect proper scaling from their games. There are a few outliers, but my current 10mm sci-fi stuff (mostly rebased Mechwarrior clix) generally has appropriately sized vehicles and likewise CAV seems to have done a good job of keeping to scale as well with the possible exception of aircraft. The vehicles Mantic is showing here would look like toys next to other current 10mm offerings.

I've so enjoyed the KoW rules (3 editions now) that I'd love to be able to support Mantic with other purchases, but they don't make it easy.
Why Mantic Why?!?!?

 Eilif wrote:
Why Mantic Why?!?!?

sprue space
they don't know yet how the models translate to the sprues and therefore designed the vehicles smaller to really fit the wanted amount of models inside the box
if the tooling company (most likely Archon) is reporting back that there is space left, the size of the vehicles will be increased

a real KS were no final product/sculpts can be shown off but everything, from model to the rules is subject of change

 Eilif wrote:
This isn't the 80's/90's anymore and folks should expect proper scaling from their games.

yeah, if this would be the case GW would be done, but somehow no one cares if one models are in scale or not but come up with background stories how the different size is "fluffy"

Oh man, free terrain sprus!

Now we're talkin!

And it's great to see that they're already working out how to make the vehicles bigger, so they won't be tiny as they are in the examples shown so far. Awesome!

How different is the scale for the vehicles? Are we talking something like 1/160 vs 1/144, or something more like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How different is the scale for the vehicles? Are we talking something like 1/160 vs 1/144, or something more like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops?

Assuming the vehicles end up unchanged from the heading promotional picture, and using the Plague Mule (look at the hatch size) as an example, it really does look like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops.


The figures are admittedly on bases, but they are taller than the hulls of the tanks of both factions. Maybe the Grav tanks could be 2-man attack vehicles, but they certainly aren't APC's.

It's a shame because I think the infantry and walkers look pretty good.

 kodos wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Why Mantic Why?!?!?

sprue space
they don't know yet how the models translate to the sprues and therefore designed the vehicles smaller to really fit the wanted amount of models inside the box
if the tooling company (most likely Archon) is reporting back that there is space left, the size of the vehicles will be increased

a real KS were no final product/sculpts can be shown off but everything, from model to the rules is subject of change

 Eilif wrote:
This isn't the 80's/90's anymore and folks should expect proper scaling from their games.

yeah, if this would be the case GW would be done, but somehow no one cares if one models are in scale or not but come up with background stories how the different size is "fluffy"

Sprue space as the reason for downscaling-vehicles is an absolutely bogus argument. if you want the vehicles to be the right size then you make them the right size on the srpue and if you have to include more sprues or have less vehicles so be it. Putting less vehicles on a sprue and producing more (actual per-sprue production costs is almost a negligible difference) is likely the real solution. If Mantic thinks their customer base will put up with such a difference to save a few bucks then they're welcome to try it, but it's still a silly reason.

I don't particularly like GW or much of their current offerings but I don't think GW has this kind of a scale problem with their current lines. 6mm vehicles with 10mm figures is like 20mm vehicles with 28mm figures. It's an incongruous and silly pairing. Sure they did when Epic/Space-Marine was in it's infancy, but that was nearly 30 years ago!

I'm talking with the club to see if it's worth it for us to buy a couple human armies for the infantry alone (which seem to be a solid bargain) but we're on the edge and there seems to be zero interest in the game as a whole. Willing to be convinced otherwise if we get a resolution to the scale issue by the end of the pledge period, but I'm not hopeful.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How different is the scale for the vehicles? Are we talking something like 1/160 vs 1/144, or something more like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops?

No one knows and at this point it is mostly conjecture based on hard-to-see shots of prototype minis taken from pulled out angles. It is also hard to know as Mantic won't be 100% certain until they are closer to actual production. They are mostly looking to get certain amounts of things on sprues, so if there is extra space then they may scale some things up to make better use of the space.

Doesn't look any worse than scale oddities found in many other small-scale 6-10mm lines (both past and present). Actual scale at these sizes can be more malleable than people realize and it is pretty easy to ignore for many folks unless it is pointed out. Had Mantic kept silent, most people probably wouldn't have noticed or cared (as can be evidenced by people only raising it as an issue after reading about it in the FAQ rather than pointing out from the aforementioned photos).

If I can be fine with metal BTech minis and original Epic vehicles/titans, then this probably won't phase me. Hell I still play with Infinity minis from the Twiggy era of heavy infantry (when their limbs were so thin that even fitting skeletons in would be a stretch). But some folks can be big sticklers for uniform scaling and there's nothing wrong with that either.

At the very least, Mantic was forthcoming about it instead of hiding it and hoping no one would notice. So people can make somewhat more informed decisions one way or the other. If small scale differences cause you ulcers, then hold off until they have things more nailed down and see for yourself. If you're willing to have scales off by a bit in the name of saving a few bucks, then go ahead and buy in. Backing unfinished products always comes with risks and unknowns, if one is averse to that, then you don't have to take plunge (which is why I like it when KS's don't have any exclusives outside of a lowered cost from retail; FOMO is a lame sales tactic).

On the GW comparison, there's a difference between vehicles being undersized and vehicles being a different scale.

A 40K rhino is too small to physically hold 10 marines, but it gets away with it because it's fairly close, and the details on the vehicle are sculpted in scale with the models even if the hull is technically too small, so it at least looks consistent with the rest of the model range.

That's not the case with the vehicles shown here. They're not undersized vehicles sculpted to the same scale as the infantry. They're shown in a completely different, smaller scale that doesn't look compatible with the troops that are supposed to use them. Details on the vehicles are too small, and in the shot just above with the Plague and Enforcers, they (particularly the Enforcers tanks) look comically small. That's further amplified by the lack of bases on the vehicles, which makes the infantry by comparison look even bigger than they actually are.


Which is a shame, because I really like the Enforcers models (and that's despite not liking the 28mm versions, for the most part). If they fix that in tooling, that's great... but it means I'll be holding off for retail to see what the models actually wind up looking like, rather than diving in here.

The scale difference is pretty noticeable on the human APC, but I don’t think it will be as much of an issue for me with the Asterians or the Enforcers. I’m most likely to use these with Dropzone and CAV vehicles for Horizon Wars, or just to fiddle with; tanks and “drones” already come in a bunch of sizes in those scales, but APCs with obvious hatches too small to function won’t work as well.

This seems like a huge blunder on Mantic’s part to me. The main draw of an “epic” scale game over a 28mm game is the ability to field huge combined arms forces with all the vehicles you can’t afford or fit in 28mm.

 Eilif wrote:

Assuming the vehicles end up unchanged from the heading promotional picture, and using the Plague Mule (look at the hatch size) as an example, it really does look like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops.

Sorry to call you out like this bud

Exhibit A: door size in scale



Exhibit B: door size on GW analogue



Exhibit C: door size on real world light combat vehicle

well, the ability to field huge combined arms forces increases with the models being just gaming pieces and not scale models.
best would be that everything would fit the same base size and not being in scale at all for such a goal, like they do it with Battletech

from an aesthetic point of view I agree, vehicles should be the same scale as infantry (and have bases) yet from a gameplay point of view to get larger forces on the table, smaller vehicles are better
I hope Mantic manages to make some of the vehicles larger, and for me the artillery looks worse with the wrong size than the Mules, but I don't see it as a big problem if they stay that size

 Eilif wrote:
Sprue space as the reason for downscaling-vehicles is an absolutely bogus argument. if you want the vehicles to be the right size then you make them the right size on the srpue and if you have to include more sprues or have less vehicles so be it. Putting less vehicles on a sprue and producing more (actual per-sprue production costs is almost a negligible difference) is likely the real solution. If Mantic thinks their customer base will put up with such a difference to save a few bucks then they're welcome to try it, but it's still a silly reason.

point is, they are producing a single plastic frame per faction, if they change that to 2 frames just to get the vehicles larger, we would not have 4 factions but just 2 in the beginning, and people would call that a failed game because no one will ever play anything with just 2 factions at start unless it is made by GW.
and doing less tanks per frame but adding more frames will result in having half units for the other models on the box and people will call it a dick move and call Mantic out for being anti-consumer and not buying it (or the box gets more expensive, providing more than they need and people will complain that Mantic is not selling them smaller boxes with half units)

Mantic is just not in the place to allow them to pull of some GW moves of not including full units in a box or being a little more expensive
the same way they need to deliver perfect rules because something that might need a balance update after 6 months is just not worth buying




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
On the GW comparison, there's a difference between vehicles being undersized and vehicles being a different scale.

well, I once did a full measurement of the GW stuff in search of alternatives in the old days and a 40k tank matches 1/48 scale, while the tank weapons are 1/35 and infantry is supposed to be 1/56
some of the modern GW infantry is 1/54 or 1/50, but the same way the tanks increased in size
if scale is important, the difference between 1/54 and 1/48 or 1/35 is quite noticeable

40k just gets away with it as no one really has a "felling" how big military vehicles usually are and they are smaller than most people expect from them, specially APCs

Thankfully, they've already clarified that they're working on making the vehicles larger, more in scale with the infantry.

So while this discussion might be interesting, it's moot.

Thank goodness.

 pancakeonions wrote:
Thankfully, they've already clarified that they're working on making the vehicles larger, more in scale with the infantry.

So while this discussion might be interesting, it's moot.

Thank goodness.

Wouldn't be a small-scale wargaming news thread if there weren't at least half a dozen scale argument tangents. They're de rigueur at this point.

 pancakeonions wrote:
Thankfully, they've already clarified that they're working on making the vehicles larger, more in scale with the infantry.

So while this discussion might be interesting, it's moot.

Thank goodness.

To be fair it's going to affect the final total. Some people don't want to buy "sight unseen" even to the degree of scale.

With all this talk of things being out of scale and whether there will be enough room for tanks etc, I don't see why Mantic don't just scale down the troops a little bit. Their vehicles will then be "in scale" and maybe they can fit another few bits and pieces onto the sprue.

Why are the vehicles potentially variable in size but the infantry MUST be 12mm tall?

Just drop the Enforcers to 10mm, make a regular human 9mm and a dwarf 7mm. Surely there isn't that great a loss in detail at that size, after all we're already talking miniatures that are going to be shade, drybrush, done. From what I gather no one is particularly excited about the infantry being as big as they are anyway.

It's very true. I would say prior to the release of Legions, along with base size queries (which seems to be the other obsession) about 50% of social media posts were questions about scale.

So reading some of the posts above this is what I should expect from the scaling?

 Zethnar wrote:
Why are the vehicles potentially variable in size but the infantry MUST be 12mm tall?

going by what Matt Gilbert said in an interview, they experimented with different sized models for Enforcers and settled with the size that had the best balance between size and details which gave them a total model size of roughly 12mm
and the other infantry/walkers was designed to be in line with the Enforcer

I don’t get why they don’t just have fewer troops on the sprue in order to make room for full sized vehicles. An extra sprue per box (for the troops) surely can’t cost more than they could lose in sales if the vehicles are unsatisfactory.

 kodos wrote:

 Zethnar wrote:
Why are the vehicles potentially variable in size but the infantry MUST be 12mm tall?

going by what Matt Gilbert said in an interview, they experimented with different sized models for Enforcers and settled with the size that had the best balance between size and details which gave them a total model size of roughly 12mm
and the other infantry/walkers was designed to be in line with the Enforcer

Again, that just seems kinda bogus. Someone is deciding they need to be that big for some reason and is unwilling to compromise. Not that it actually bothers me over-much, but it really seems like the easiest solution to their scale issue, which is only an issue because they want to make the infantry that big in the first place.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don’t get why they don’t just have fewer troops on the sprue in order to make room for full sized vehicles. An extra sprue per box (for the troops) surely can’t cost more than they could lose in sales if the vehicles are unsatisfactory.

Scroll down to the end of this here update. I reckon they just don't yet know how many thingies they can stuff on a spru?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/manticgames/warpath-the-game-of-epic-scale-sci-fi-warfare/posts/4028899

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

Assuming the vehicles end up unchanged from the heading promotional picture, and using the Plague Mule (look at the hatch size) as an example, it really does look like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops.

Sorry to call you out like this bud

Exhibit A: door size in scale



Exhibit B: door size on GW analogue



Exhibit C: door size on real world light combat vehicle

No offence taken. Your picture does show that it's not quite as bad as I feared, but the 10mm version is still smaller than it should be, even taking into account the necessary bulkiness of 10mm infantry.

The real world combat vehicle is not really germaine to the issue. I've already expressed that real world combat vehicles are smaller than most folks think. I'm one of the people that think that the current edition of the Rhino is actually not too far from being correctly scaled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:


point is, they are producing a single plastic frame per faction, if they change that to 2 frames just to get the vehicles larger, we would not have 4 factions but just 2 in the beginning, and people would call that a failed game because no one will ever play anything with just 2 factions at start unless it is made by GW.
and doing less tanks per frame but adding more frames will result in having half units for the other models on the box and people will call it a dick move and call Mantic out for being anti-consumer and not buying it (or the box gets more expensive, providing more than they need and people will complain that Mantic is not selling them smaller boxes with half units)

I don't buy it. If you have to make less tanks per sprue, do so and just make more of that sprue. Once you've got the tooling, it's not terribly expensive or time consuming to just make more. Mantic has done enough corner cutting and half-measures in their miniature production thus far. Here's a new game, a new scale and a new chance to just flipping do it right.

Hopefully, as has been suggested, Mantic can figure this out.

On the GW comparison, there's a difference between vehicles being undersized and vehicles being a different scale. well, I once did a full measurement of the GW stuff in search of alternatives in the old days and a 40k tank matches 1/48 scale, while the tank weapons are 1/35 and infantry is supposed to be 1/56
some of the modern GW infantry is 1/54 or 1/50, but the same way the tanks increased in size
if scale is important, the difference between 1/54 and 1/48 or 1/35 is quite noticeable.

Setting asside scale creep, everything from GW has pretty much followed these rough comparisons for decades. The height is 1/56 (more like 1/50 now), the thickness of figures and size of vehicles is closer to 1/48, and weapons is closer to1/35 (or even bigger, as 1/35 firearms are still notably slimmer than GW). That's just the aesthetic and it's fairly consistent across their ranges. That's not what's being discussed here.

so for GW it is the aesthetic, but for Mantic it is an issue

which means the main problem is that Mantic mentioned a scale/size while GW gets away with it because they don't have a scale/size in the first place

If you have to make less tanks per sprue, do so and just make more of that sprue

so you have no problem with needing 2 core army sets to make a full infantry unit?
you would not complain to need to buy another box because the first one just has enough models to make 1 and a half unit, like people do with LI?

if people already complain about those things with GW, why do you think Mantic can get away with that?

and just doubling the box and make it 3 or 4000 points for a 2000 points game and expect people do not complain that there should be less models inside with a decreased price?

 Zethnar wrote:
Someone is deciding they need to be that big for some reason and is unwilling to compromise. Not that it actually bothers me over-much, but it really seems like the easiest solution to their scale issue, which is only an issue because they want to make the infantry that big in the first place.

you assume that "they" think that there is a scale issue in the first place
some people here think that models in a miniature games being not in scale is in issue for non-GW games, that does not necessarily mean that the designers of those games think that there is in issue in the first place, or that tanks being not perfectly in scale would affect sales more than less detailed infantry

yes, Mantic could release the very same infantry in quality as GW did with LI and this would crumble their sales much more because bad looking plastic infantry is an issue if you are not GW
hence why the prioritise the infantry details and not the size of the vehicles

 pancakeonions wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don’t get why they don’t just have fewer troops on the sprue in order to make room for full sized vehicles. An extra sprue per box (for the troops) surely can’t cost more than they could lose in sales if the vehicles are unsatisfactory.

Scroll down to the end of this here update. I reckon they just don't yet know how many thingies they can stuff on a spru?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/manticgames/warpath-the-game-of-epic-scale-sci-fi-warfare/posts/4028899

more like they don't know how many pieces the tanks must be split into
people already complain that there are not enough details on the vehicles, but more details would mean more parts and with that less sprue space

Why would you need to buy two boxes? If they were going to sell boxes with 5 sprues, they can reduce the infantry by 1/6th to fit the vehicles at proper size rather than .7 size and just pack 6 sprues instead of 5. The additional cost for another sprue has got to be less than the cost of killing the new release hype, adding another brick to the wall of “Mantic. Almost.” and having angry customers demand refunds. It would be penny wise and pound foolish not to fix vehicle sizes just to get a “perfect” sprue.

As above, you really think Mantic can get away with LI quality infantry?

And for now, 3 people on Dakka being angry because "not final" 3D renders of vehicles being off scale has enough impact to completely redesign the full project?

 kodos wrote:
As above, you really think Mantic can get away with LI quality infantry?

And for now, 3 people on Dakka being angry because "not final" 3D renders of vehicles being off scale has enough impact to completely redesign the full project?

I don't think anyone's angry about it. A few people have been discussing preferences, is all.

They really can't easily tweak the number of sprues per box and still conform to list building constraints (units of 6)

Scale won’t affect whether I take the plunge or not really.
I think I would like it more in line sure, and hopefully they do increase vehicle size a bit, and I would also be happy with 1-2mm smaller scale infantry for instance.

But, shall just be a wait and see situation.