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The Shield Captain gave them the Chance to put down their weapons, they didn't so he thought there must be something to it. I'd argue an Inquisitor might not have given them that chance. I liked the story, it brought a grimdark vibe to Custodes and Primaris, that these shiny Boys certainly need. Also reminded me of what happened to the Fists Exemplar in the Beast series.

You guys have a much nicer image of the Custodes than I do. It is right there in the story, they were "confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis" but the Inquisition. The most serious charge of the inquisition for which the penalty is death, the charge for this consorting with or under the influence of daemons, practicing witchcraft, and heresy against the Emperor.

He demanded their surrender and was even nice enough to tell them twice before executing someone who failed to comply with his order to surrender.

But i guess that awesome Custodes training and gene craft should have stopped him from being so hasty, even after 10K years watching over the Emperor entombed in the Golden Throne where he was put by the traitor primarchs and their traitor Astartes. 10K years of watching the Imperium descend into a mockery of the Imperial Truth. And then being scolded by the Emperor's returned son for hiding behind the walls of the Imperial place all those millennia instead of helping preserve the Imperium.

Yeah, that definitely should have stayed his hand. He definitely should have listened to what the confirmed traitors had to say in their defense before they laid down their arms. It's not like the Empreror ever did anything harsh like that without explanation (Monarchia).

Well traitor marines were traitors because emperor planned for it to get them kill each other.

What GW fluff 'tells' us and what GW fluff 'shows' us are often very different. They tell us the Custodes are these enlightened, superhumanly intelligent warrior-scholars who, alone in the Imperium, still hold to the Emperor's original ideals; but what GW writers show us, pretty consistently, are a bunch of arrogant, intolerant, hyper-aggressive douchebags.

It might be that the first is just how the Custodes themselves think they are, while the second is the truth.

Or it might just be that GW fluff is mostly written by incompetent hacks who lack the ability to write characters who aren't arrogant, intolerant, hyper-aggressive douchebags.

The story made a nice read with my morning coffee, not the best story but nowhere near the worst story I've read from GW (Some of us still haven't forgotten C.S Goto)

I've always liked the fact the Custodes range personality wise as they're made as individuals first and foremost. This was a more extreme example but like I said, I just treat this as popcorn reading. I do like the animosity Custodes have against marines, I wish internal feelings/discussions amongst the Custodes was explored more so we can learn the range of feelings against Astartes

 alextroy wrote:
You guys have a much nicer image of the Custodes than I do. It is right there in the story, they were "confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis" but the Inquisition. The most serious charge of the inquisition for which the penalty is death, the charge for this consorting with or under the influence of daemons, practicing witchcraft, and heresy against the Emperor.

He demanded their surrender and was even nice enough to tell them twice before executing someone who failed to comply with his order to surrender.

But i guess that awesome Custodes training and gene craft should have stopped him from being so hasty, even after 10K years watching over the Emperor entombed in the Golden Throne where he was put by the traitor primarchs and their traitor Astartes. 10K years of watching the Imperium descend into a mockery of the Imperial Truth. And then being scolded by the Emperor's returned son for hiding behind the walls of the Imperial place all those millennia instead of helping preserve the Imperium.

Yeah, that definitely should have stayed his hand. He definitely should have listened to what the confirmed traitors had to say in their defense before they laid down their arms. It's not like the Empreror ever did anything harsh like that without explanation (Monarchia).

The problem is they are greyshields though, so they are not tainted by the chapter. The Custodes were right to give them a chance as they had not officially joined any chapter (otherwise they would not be greyshields).

However, when the primaris sided with their brethren (that they had not met) then they were also heretics at that immediate point, and when they ordered to capture the fleet, they were absolutely gone.

To be fair, I think it's an interesting story but poor writing. The greyshields would not necessarily feel such tight connections with a chapter they have not even met yet. Additionally, they may not even share the same geneseed as the parent chapter, they would most likely have the geneseed of the original legion the parent chapter were created from...

Weird story, but the greyshields were not traitors like the parent chapter until they acted in that story. Arguably the Custodes going straight to defcon 1 didn't help matters, Astartes are made to fight and be aggressive, they are going to react when threatened.

I dont really see the issue.

Those Primaris didnt even go traitor particularly quickly compared to classic, golden-age 40K stories with similar transformations such as the Wolf Falls, etc..

Huron has a Battle Barge, and claims his "greatest prize", a Strike Cruiser.

Ok...

I tried to be as specific as possible, but since you glossed over it and instead focused on the custodes’s actions (fairly predictable) or me thinking he was “too nice” (Not really, Custodes are highly arrogant and have plenty of their own biases and indoctrination), I’ll try again to point out the issue:

You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’

These lines, near when the Shield-Captain begins his interactions, show him buying into imperial cult thinking and colours the rest of the interaction as a result.

It pretty much becomes a standard story of an inquisitor or commissar being a millimetre from executing people for a perceived, paranoid connection relating to his sense of religious fervour. (Then of course going through with it when his hair trigger is predictably set off second set later).

The issue is not the custodian provoking executing the marines for some unfair reason, but the failure to frame this distinctly, to have him act like an atheistic pursuant of the imperial truth. An arrogant “philosopher king” with a monstrous ego and unlimited mandate who speaks with the “word” of a coma patient. A man with paranoia not in religious terms, but in terms of hypervigilance against anything that could hurt his beloved master.

Certainly there might be some pleasant custodes the same way there are pleasant marines, but if this guy is a complete jerk he should be a custodes-flavoured jerk.

Off the top of my head one fairly easy way to do that might be to have him order them to immediately scrub all traces of treasonous heraldry from their armour, then kick into high gear paranoia when they show reluctance, the story following the same beats as the original from then on.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

To be fair, I think it's an interesting story but poor writing. The greyshields would not necessarily feel such tight connections with a chapter they have not even met yet. Additionally, they may not even share the same geneseed as the parent chapter, they would most likely have the geneseed of the original legion the parent chapter were created from...

Maybe the Greyshields would have already learned about the Chapter they were supposed to join, through documents, recordings, etc..., and the Custodes (on top of an already existing prejudice against Astartes) thought they had been tainted in some fashion already by such association or exposure to whatever the Brazen Drakes' ideology is.

These lines, near when the Shield-Captain begins his interactions, show him buying into imperial cult thinking and colours the rest of the interaction as a result.

Except the word 'heresy' was already being used to mean 'treason against the Emperor' back when the Emperor was walking around and worshipping him as a god was illegal (see, for example, damn near every HH novel). It did not always have a religious connotation (either in the 30/40K setting or in our own history), and obviously the Custodes are still using it in its original sense.

Same with the term 'faithful servants'. The motto 'Semper Fidelis' does not mean all US Marines have to be religious. Faithfulness does not imply religiosity.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Huron has a Battle Barge, and claims his "greatest prize", a Strike Cruiser.

Ok...

A strike cruiser from one of the first founding chapters.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Ugh traitor primaris will be the worst.

Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.

Why? They expanded the marine range with new vanguard and devastator marines only to launch primaris shortly after. It's perfect for GW, they get to pull the same move twice (I don't say trick, because I really don't think anything they do should be a surprise if folks pay attention) sell an updated kit, then tack on a new new kit. They gotta keep making models after all.

 Duskweaver wrote:

These lines, near when the Shield-Captain begins his interactions, show him buying into imperial cult thinking and colours the rest of the interaction as a result.

Except the word 'heresy' was already being used to mean 'treason against the Emperor' back when the Emperor was walking around and worshipping him as a god was illegal (see, for example, damn near every HH novel). It did not always have a religious connotation (either in the 30/40K setting or in our own history), and obviously the Custodes are still using it in its original sense.

Same with the term 'faithful servants'. The motto 'Semper Fidelis' does not mean all US Marines have to be religious. Faithfulness does not imply religiosity.

Is there a reason you’re skimming out the “You have no right to look at or speak to imperial citizens” rhetoric? That’s absolutely tarring them as disgusting and tainted on a religious level for.... being earmarked as reinforcements for traitors the custodian is well aware they’ve never met?

It doesn’t quite gel. His information on this matter is fairly absolute, and he doesn’t have the excuse of imperial cult thinking to leap to a bizzare soul deep taint by vague association narrative.

Like I said, you could fix this easily, in but a small edit, by making the shield captain be performing a security formality until kicked into paranoia by the marine captain’s moment of sympathy for the traitors.


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 Red Corsair wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Ugh traitor primaris will be the worst.

Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.

Why? They expanded the marine range with new vanguard and devastator marines only to launch primaris shortly after. It's perfect for GW, they get to pull the same move twice (I don't say trick, because I really don't think anything they do should be a surprise if folks pay attention) sell an updated kit, then tack on a new new kit. They gotta keep making models after all.

Because people are heavily entrenched in the primaris as replacement narrative and would consider chaos primaris as an attempt to flush chaos marines down the drain.

changemod wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:

These lines, near when the Shield-Captain begins his interactions, show him buying into imperial cult thinking and colours the rest of the interaction as a result.

Except the word 'heresy' was already being used to mean 'treason against the Emperor' back when the Emperor was walking around and worshipping him as a god was illegal (see, for example, damn near every HH novel). It did not always have a religious connotation (either in the 30/40K setting or in our own history), and obviously the Custodes are still using it in its original sense.

Same with the term 'faithful servants'. The motto 'Semper Fidelis' does not mean all US Marines have to be religious. Faithfulness does not imply religiosity.

Is there a reason you’re skimming out the “You have no right to look at or speak to imperial citizens” rhetoric? That’s absolutely tarring them as disgusting and tainted on a religious level for.... being earmarked as reinforcements for traitors the custodian is well aware they’ve never met?

It doesn’t quite gel. His information on this matter is fairly absolute, and he doesn’t have the excuse of imperial cult thinking to leap to a bizzare soul deep taint by vague association narrative.

Like I said, you could fix this easily, in but a small edit, by making the shield captain be performing a security formality until kicked into paranoia by the marine captain’s moment of sympathy for the traitors.

They guy had an heavy bias against marines. He was just looking for a good reason to kill them, and was offered one a silver plate.

OT all the stories so far included renegade marines. Even the one in Bile story says that he forfeited his chapter... coincidence?

changemod wrote:
“You have no right to look at or speak to imperial citizens” rhetoric? That’s absolutely tarring them as disgusting and tainted on a religious level for.... being earmarked as reinforcements for traitors the custodian is well aware they’ve never met?

Why do you keep conflating 'paranoid, dogmatic and irrational' with 'religious'? Many real-world secular/atheist regimes (Juche North Korea, France during La Terreur, Stalin's USSR, to name but three) have had fanatical adherents who could have spoken and acted exactly like the Custodes in the story. And the concept of traitors being 'unpersons' who are not fit to look at or speak to loyal citizens is, if anything, more characteristic of such secular/atheist regimes than it is of theocracies. There's nothing necessarily 'religious' about any of the things you've identified.

Let's keep politics out of this please.

I think this story has blown out of proportion because it was primaris marines who were killed.

Story could of been better written but its not *bad*, Custodes are not astartes biggest fans on the best of days and he gave them TWO, two whole chances to comply. That's more than a guardsmen would ever get from a commissar.

Is the premise wacky? Yep. Is 40k wackier and stupider things happen? Literally all the damn time.

Let's not blow this out of proportion, for all we know this is a custode who was on perspero gunning down marines left, right and centre so this may not be out of this particular custodies norm to handle Astartes.

I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.

I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?

I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.

I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?

I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.

BIle is capable of making regular humans into his new man, which are capable off kiling marines and operate in packs for that aswell as beeing gifted inteligence and strength.
If he'd improve marines, i'd asume atleast lorewise, depending on how much he want's to waste, somewhere between a primaris and custodes would be possible.

In game i rekon it will just be a trait rolling on a d3 or 6 for a random buff.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.

I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?

I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.

In 6th, "Enhanced Warriors" gained Fearless & +1S. In 8th it's a D3 roll for either +1S, +1T or +1A. Hopefully it'll get better with his new rules.

Difficult to know what GW will do

new Men rather than Prmaris with a Cgoas aint job would b awesome and GW usually misses most opportunities to cross sell their models.....

That being said they are releasing a huge variety of models at the moment.

beast_gts wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.

I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?

I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.

In 6th, "Enhanced Warriors" gained Fearless & +1S. In 8th it's a D3 roll for either +1S, +1T or +1A. Hopefully it'll get better with his new rules.

Gotta love Randumb!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.

I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?

I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.

In 6th, "Enhanced Warriors" gained Fearless & +1S. In 8th it's a D3 roll for either +1S, +1T or +1A. Hopefully it'll get better with his new rules.

Gotta love Randumb!

everything but that again, Heck even allow points for upgrades but not randumb...

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.

I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?

I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.

In 6th, "Enhanced Warriors" gained Fearless & +1S. In 8th it's a D3 roll for either +1S, +1T or +1A. Hopefully it'll get better with his new rules.

Gotta love Randumb!

everything but that again, Heck even allow points for upgrades but not randumb...

In 2nd, his "Enhanced Warriors" were Chaos marines with +1 M, S, T, A, Immune to Fear and Terror.

Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.

With guns! I like it!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.

With guns! I like it!

You're not the only one. If that was a unit currently (especially if they're troops, however unlikely) I think people all over would be starting a new chaos army.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.

No, Chaos should be chaotic. If anything, the new Bile should be more random. Roll a D3, and randomly select that many units in your army. Roll a D3 for either S+1, A+1, or T+1

FLUFFY AND SUPER POWERFUL

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.

With guns! I like it!

You're not the only one. If that was a unit currently (especially if they're troops, however unlikely) I think people all over would be starting a new chaos army.

Unfortunately you had to take Fabius as your Warlord (or whatever, I'm not a player) to get this perk. Each marine was +5 pts, and Fabius had a truly shaky profile (every stat, literally every one, was D3, or D6, or D3, or D3+3, etc etc). I'm not sure I saw many Batreps in the 90s with Fabius as the main guy!