Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeaaaah, I don't get some of the hype with the Snyder Cut and the trailer basically just reinforces my thoughts regarding that it'll largely be more of the same, just with more edgy lines versus having Avengers-like quips.

What this thread taught me is that the people who dislike Snyder/DCEU will continue to dislike them no matter what, and that the people who are stoked for this will stay stoked no matter what.

I can't wait for someone to blather on about "So DaRk" when the MCU had literally half of all life wiped out arbitrarily.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeaaaah, I don't get some of the hype with the Snyder Cut and the trailer basically just reinforces my thoughts regarding that it'll largely be more of the same, just with more edgy lines versus having Avengers-like quips.

Thats fair - I didn't see much that was actually going to be different except maybe more exposition, side characters and less clever asides.

Still interested in it.

I think we'll see quite a bit that's new just given that it's double the runtime.

I also don't think a teaser trailer would be the place to show off any crazy new scenes or reveals. What you'd probably want to do with the teaser trailer is...tease...audiences with alternate versions of stuff they've seen before.

Again, I don't know whether or not the end product will be good. But I'm not sure what people really want from a teaser trailer.

 gorgon wrote:
I think we'll see quite a bit that's new just given that it's double the runtime.

I also don't think a teaser trailer would be the place to show off any crazy new scenes or reveals. What you'd probably want to do with the teaser trailer is...tease...audiences with alternate versions of stuff they've seen before.

Again, I don't know whether or not the end product will be good. But I'm not sure what people really want from a teaser trailer.

Ughhh double the run time? thats not good

Four one-hour episodes apparently.

 Lance845 wrote:

It doesn't help at all that Snyder doesn't understand any of these characters or what their themes are about. He actually dislikes everything about comic book heroes. Its why he did so well with Watchmen. Watchmen is a deconstruction of everything traditional superhero books are about.

Snyder is of the era of fans that mistook satire for maturity and sought to replicate the style of those works without understanding or appreciating what gave them meaning in the first place. In many ways, he's the director equivalent of a 90's comic book creator.

THAT said, he has his talents and I think they have their place, but playing catch up to the MCU wasn't it. I think some distance will serve the film well and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

 gorgon wrote:
Four one-hour episodes apparently.

Ahh thats a much better idea

 LunarSol wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

It doesn't help at all that Snyder doesn't understand any of these characters or what their themes are about. He actually dislikes everything about comic book heroes. Its why he did so well with Watchmen. Watchmen is a deconstruction of everything traditional superhero books are about.

Snyder is of the era of fans that mistook satire for maturity and sought to replicate the style of those works without understanding or appreciating what gave them meaning in the first place. In many ways, he's the director equivalent of a 90's comic book creator.

THAT said, he has his talents and I think they have their place, but playing catch up to the MCU wasn't it. I think some distance will serve the film well and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

While that's true, his cinematography is far superior to Whedon. I can't recall a really memorable shot from Avengers or Age of Ultron, but even BvS had memorable framing.

 trexmeyer wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

It doesn't help at all that Snyder doesn't understand any of these characters or what their themes are about. He actually dislikes everything about comic book heroes. Its why he did so well with Watchmen. Watchmen is a deconstruction of everything traditional superhero books are about.

Snyder is of the era of fans that mistook satire for maturity and sought to replicate the style of those works without understanding or appreciating what gave them meaning in the first place. In many ways, he's the director equivalent of a 90's comic book creator.

THAT said, he has his talents and I think they have their place, but playing catch up to the MCU wasn't it. I think some distance will serve the film well and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

While that's true, his cinematography is far superior to Whedon. I can't recall a really memorable shot from Avengers or Age of Ultron, but even BvS had memorable framing.

I don't really like to bring Whedon into Justice League, as his work isn't fair to anyone involved. It's clearly a heavily rushed hack made to appease studio executive demands with raw material that wasn't at all suited to the task. There's a reason his name appears in the credits with "I tried". The movie we got belongs to no one and really shows. It probably should be credited to whatever exec signed off on things.

Avengers and Ultron have a few memorable shots though. Notably the "hero circle" shots and the sequences that move from character to character throughout the battle. That's not to dispute the point though. Snyder's cinematography has always been a strong point of any of his films. His DCEU work has suffered from being a bit heavy handed, particularly on tired religious symbolism, but he's still regularly churning out some of the most unique and memorable camera work of the 2010's.

The main exciting Avengers shots are the 1 long tracking Hero shot per movie. - The battle of New York, and the opening forest one in Ultron.


But yes, as much as I **** on Snyder, and I do, and will probably continue to do, because he's a jerk....

Please, just please, never think that I'm binarily (which is apparently not a word), defending Whedon. I think, on some level at least, I've probably known about him being a jerk since I found out about Dollhouses concept. And there's more I've learned since from his Buffy, and especially Angel days.

the Justice League issue IMHO isn't Synder vs Wheadon. it's Snyder vs FEIGE.

Kevin Keige was the guiding man behind the MCU, he had a vision that was directing the course of events, and that vision is whats important to discuss it. the DCEU meanwhile well.. Snyder's vision is what they're using for it and I don't think the visions a good one. it's too "cynical" LunarSol's comparing it too "90s comics" is actually a pretty good example, where Snyder wants to be edgy and cynical but doesn't have anything else to pin it to, the result is well... weakness.

BrianDavion wrote:
the Justice League issue IMHO isn't Synder vs Wheadon. it's Snyder vs FEIGE.

Kevin Keige was the guiding man behind the MCU, he had a vision that was directing the course of events, and that vision is whats important to discuss it. the DCEU meanwhile well.. Snyder's vision is what they're using for it and I don't think the visions a good one. it's too "cynical" LunarSol's comparing it too "90s comics" is actually a pretty good example, where Snyder wants to be edgy and cynical but doesn't have anything else to pin it to, the result is well... weakness.

Part of it is this whole 'snyder cut' deal feels extra cynical. Watch/buy the original! Watch/buy the director's New Cut(s$s). Next year, watch/buy the reissue of the Classic Cut! Now with more wobbly lip footage and deleted scenes!
Dark, broody quippy marvel look-a-like, we can't tell anymore, here at WB, we'll sell you it all!

I think it’s important to remember that all other issues aside, the reason Snyder couldn’t complete Justice League and they had to bring in Whedon at the last minute was because Snyder’s daughter committed suicide. That’s just an awful situation and was always going to cause issues with the production. As much as I don’t like his take on DC, I’m kind of glad he finally got to finish his project and hopefully it was a cathartic exercise for him.

I am not going to lay into Snyder for his personal life and the crap thats gone on with him. By all accounts he is a decent enough dude in that he doesn't make other peoples lives worse. Wheddon on the other had is a full on bad person who makes many peoples lives worse. He is a full on piece of gak.

Now professionally, Whedon is a hack. The only good things he made are good because he had a writing room to give his shallow garbage some depth.

Snyder on the other had has talent and can produce good works. But it's not this. Comics are not his thing. He doesn't get it. He should stay away from it.

BrianDavion wrote:
the Justice League issue IMHO isn't Synder vs Wheadon. it's Snyder vs FEIGE.

Kevin Keige was the guiding man behind the MCU, he had a vision that was directing the course of events, and that vision is whats important to discuss it. the DCEU meanwhile well.. Snyder's vision is what they're using for it and I don't think the visions a good one. it's too "cynical" LunarSol's comparing it too "90s comics" is actually a pretty good example, where Snyder wants to be edgy and cynical but doesn't have anything else to pin it to, the result is well... weakness.

Eh. The fault lies with *the studio* in giving the universe to Snyder to build. He's an auteur filmmaker with a particular style and vision that can be divisive. Not really what you want in a shared universe-builder. He got the job after Christopher Nolan turned them down. Snyder was their next stop since he'd directed MoS for Nolan. (MoS was the Nolans' idea.)

@Jadenim -- The worst part of what happened to Snyder is that it actually wasn't his choice to step down. The studio used his daughter's death as a cover story when they fired him from the project. Wowsers, right? And Snyder didn't pick Whedon to finish it either...that was more BS from the studio. Just like how Whedon was going to finish it according to Snyder's vision. Whedon rewrote and reshot most of the film. There are good reasons why the JL cast can't stand any of the folks who were in charge at the time. Ugly stuff.

Nolan would have been just as bad if not worse.

Another person put in charge of content they don't understand.

 Lance845 wrote:
Nolan would have been just as bad if not worse.

Another person put in charge of content they don't understand.

True dat.

I shudder at the thought he would have had the whole Justic League

So are we expecting Cyborg to die in this? There was a thing going around that that had been Snyder’s intentions in the original and one of the things that was cut out by Whedon.

Do you think Snyder will have made changes from his original vision based on the feedback of BvS and Whedon’s version or will he stick to his guns?

I imagine there's limited scope for changes from what he originally intended, given I don't think there has been any word of reshoots specific to the Snyder Cut.

 AduroT wrote:
So are we expecting Cyborg to die in this? There was a thing going around that that had been Snyder’s intentions in the original and one of the things that was cut out by Whedon.

Do you think Snyder will have made changes from his original vision based on the feedback of BvS and Whedon’s version or will he stick to his guns?

Change it to kill the only Black Superhero in the film seems .....not great - eps at the moment

 Lance845 wrote:


Snyder on the other had has talent and can produce good works. But it's not this. Comics are not his thing. He doesn't get it. He should stay away from it.

I think I've finally settled on Karen Traviss as the best comparison to Snyder.

It's not that there is no talent. There is. Quite a bit of it really. It's not that there isn't an ability to put together something good. There is.

The problem is that like Traviss, Snyder has a particular obsessive that finds its way into everything he does (shallow edge lording that isn't nearly as deep as he thinks it is) and he rams it into everything he does. That works great when it actually fits the material. Karen Traviss massive fetish militarism works when she's writing military fiction. It's really only off putting when she throws her massive hate boner for anything that isn't fetishizing militarism on the table. Snyder's shallowness fits great with dark edgy movies with lots of violence in an almost NGE level cynical 'take that' at people who like shallow and edgy ultra violence. Though Snyder seems to think that is itself somehow more meaningful than it is and I'd accuse him very much of Anno-ing himself*, but whatever. It doesn't work when the material doesn't support it, and comics ironically are nowhere near as shallow and edgy as Snyder seems to think they are. At the very least, being shallow and edgy isn't what makes them fun. His attempts to make them fit his particular vision as a result just comes off as off putting and bizarre to anyone who isn't interested in a shallow and edge lordy rendition of comic book superheroes absent Frank Miller's talent for making it tongue-in-cheek.

*Anno partially made NGE as a deep seated cynical take on anime and manga, criticizing the entire medium as shallow and emotionally empty. Became ironic because NGE really wasn't that much better beyond pointing it out. I think Snyder is kind of on that same road, where his insistence of making shallow and dark superhero stores with no real meaning beyond their shallowness makes his derisive attitude toward the source material very ironic.

Nolan would have been just as bad if not worse.

I feel like Nolan was the opposite honestly. While his Batman films weren't all good, he was able to make something uniquely Nolan that still felt like Batman. Snyder seems unable to do that. His only appreciation of comics seems to be the Frank Miller ultra-violent super cynical version, and it's amusing watching him call everything else 'for kids' like that's some kind of great sin. Same with Whedon. Go ahead and mock him I guess, but even the worst MCU movies were mostly better than Snyder's self-fellating uber-dark 'my movies are for adults' silliness. If BvS and Justice League are what he thinks 'for adults' means, I think I'd rather watch a kid's movie.

I disagree entirely that what Nolan made felt like Batman.

Nolan has one of the best Jokers. Sure. But he has the absolute WORST Batman.

 Lance845 wrote:
Nolan has one of the best Jokers. Sure. But he has the absolute WORST Batman.

I said it wasn't all good XD But really, no one will ever be Batman like Kevin Conroy. Not to me. The silly voice things Baleman had going on never helped.

It still felt like a Batman movie. It wasn't some attempt to make 'Batman for Adults' made by a man who I increasingly think doesn't have any idea what 'for adults' means. He just says it on reflex whenever he feels insecure with criticism.

Thats not the problem. The problem with Nolans Batman is the sheer incompetence. He is a fething idiot. At every turn in every movie his every villain tricks him. He's desperate to do things and does nothing.

He lives with Ras for years training and never figures out who Ras actually is. He blows up the whole ninja house on accident and Ras has to literally show up in his house and tell him who he really is. He has to be told what scarecrows plan is before he can start to fight against it.

Then the Joker. Who has him so confused at every single turn that he can't save the person he wants to save. That he has no agency whats so ever about the boats. It just so happens that the people decide to not do Jokers bit. But it doesn't matter because he made a Two Face. Which Batman is ignorant of and has to go running to next.

And finally Bane. Bane who trumps Batman again at every turn all so that at the end Batmans new girlfriend can stab him and be like "It wasn't Bane at all. It was Me. I am Talia and you never figured out gak".

There was a guy arguably DRESSED like Batman in these movies. But they in no way were like Batman. Bale was no closer to Batman then that guy in hockey pads.


Go watch Batman '89 again. He figures out who the Joker is half way through that movie and then stops the Jokers plots throughout the second half. Bale never figured out who ANYONE was without them telling him themselves and always too late to prevent massive amounts of damage. Again, Nolan doesn't understand the characters or the content. I don't know what he was trying to make. But it wasn't Batman: Worlds Greatest Detective

 Lance845 wrote:
Thats not the problem. The problem with Nolans Batman is the sheer incompetence. He is a fething idiot. At every turn in every movie his every villain tricks him. He's desperate to do things and does nothing.

He lives with Ras for years training and never figures out who Ras actually is. He blows up the whole ninja house on accident and Ras has to literally show up in his house and tell him who he really is. He has to be told what scarecrows plan is before he can start to fight against it.

Then the Joker. Who has him so confused at every single turn that he can't save the person he wants to save. That he has no agency whats so ever about the boats. It just so happens that the people decide to not do Jokers bit. But it doesn't matter because he made a Two Face. Which Batman is ignorant of and has to go running to next.

And finally Bane. Bane who trumps Batman again at every turn all so that at the end Batmans new girlfriend can stab him and be like "It wasn't Bane at all. It was Me. I am Talia and you never figured out gak".

There was a guy arguably DRESSED like Batman in these movies. But they in no way were like Batman. Bale was no closer to Batman then that guy in hockey pads.


Go watch Batman '89 again. He figures out who the Joker is half way through that movie and then stops the Jokers plots throughout the second half. Bale never figured out who ANYONE was without them telling him themselves and always too late to prevent massive amounts of damage. Again, Nolan doesn't understand the characters or the content. I don't know what he was trying to make. But it wasn't Batman: Worlds Greatest Detective

Brilliant summary of the differences between the Batman (Keaton) and a bloke stumbling around in a batman suit as the man himself is away.

Its very clear that Nolan had zero interest in the Batman/Bruce Wayne character - but then people and motivations is not something he deals with in his films

If the Bale Batman was in the Batman '89 movie Jokers balloons full of joker toxin would have flooded the city and we would have watched Bale in the batwing flying through clouds of green gas unable to do anything about it as the Joker ran away in the confusion. Because there is NO WAY Bale could have figured out what the Joker was up to. He would be a reactionary force and that means he would have acted too late.

 Lance845 wrote:
I disagree entirely that what Nolan made felt like Batman.

Nolan has one of the best Jokers. Sure. But he has the absolute WORST Batman.

George Clooney and Val Kilmer exist.

 trexmeyer wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I disagree entirely that what Nolan made felt like Batman.

Nolan has one of the best Jokers. Sure. But he has the absolute WORST Batman.

George Clooney and Val Kilmer exist.

And? Clooney and Kilmer 1) were detectives 2) were more like the Adam West Batman 3) were the least lethal. 4) were competent.

You cannot stack Cloony and Kilmer next to Bale and have Bale come out on top. While Kilmer and Cloony were goofy as feth, they both didn't violate most of what makes Batman Batman. Bale violates EVERYTHING about the character.

I'm not convinced, but I haven't seen those three films in a hot minute. Did they do any actual detective work? The only thing I can really recall Bale doing was the bit with the bullet.