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Move over Space Marines.

Lucky for me I just acquired the last few models in my 2k Mars army, making use of the best units. My force just gained:

-Ignore movement penalties
-Add 1 to strength of heavy weapons (insane). My Multitudes of heavy stubbers just became heavy bolters lol.
-Aura generating more hits on a 6 = 25% increase in damage.

You guys should have a browse:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/26/new-rules-for-the-adeptus-mechanicusgw-homepage-post-3/

There will inevitably be a best combination which everyone will use, and by which the effectiveness of the admech will be defined.

It's another worrying sign of 9th though. How do you determine the appropriate cost of any given unit or weapon if its final capabilities fall within such a large range.

it's worth noting that the previewed Mars rule is a Canticle, so it's something you'll be taking in place of, for example, armywide reroll 1s to hit, or armywide cover, and something you'll only be able to actually choose to gain once per game.

For the current canticles, you can try and roll for them to get them again, but it's unclear how these 7th canticles will interact with that, at all. That's particularly important for Mars, which gets 2 Canticles if they choose to roll randomly.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:
There will inevitably be a best combination which everyone will use, and by which the effectiveness of the admech will be defined.

It's another worrying sign of 9th though. How do you determine the appropriate cost of any given unit or weapon if its final capabilities fall within such a large range.

answer: you don't. You give CSMs a 1 point discount on 1 unit and call a situation where an IH land raider can fight 2 CSM land raiders that cost the exact same amount good

I'm not a fan of the one that shuts down auras, especially at 1CP... In general, I don't love "oh no you don't" rules mechanisms, and this is one that can really hit an army where it hurts. There's a big difference between applying a penalty or adding a restriction and unmaking an army's cornerstone build strategy. That's just annoying to play against and it weakens one of the most consistent design elements of this edition IMHO.

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm not a fan of the one that shuts down auras, especially at 1CP... In general, I don't love "oh no you don't" rules mechanisms, and this is one that can really hit an army where it hurts. There's a big difference between applying a penalty or adding a restriction and unmaking an army's cornerstone build strategy. That's just annoying to play against and it weakens one of the most consistent design elements of this edition IMHO.

You do have to get an ornithopter within 6" of the strat target to make that work, that's a fairly significant restriction.

I think the -1 to wound outside 12" is kind of bonkers though. AdMech definitely got some very good rules in the context of 8th ed, we'll have to see how they are under 9th.

Radiant Disciple and Omnissiah Shield are poorly worded. Do I reduce the strength when attacking enemies or they attack me (I’m guessing the latter, but it just states “resolve an attack”, not against who). Same for Omnissiah Shield - who gets the benefit?). When I first read them I was confused, as it sounded like it benefited the enemy, which seemed wrong.

The Newman wrote:
You do have to get an ornithopter within 6" of the strat target to make that work, that's a fairly significant restriction.

It is a presumably fairly speedy flyer, and 9th is bringing in reserves from table edges so it may be more of a question of where you can fit its base.

With a valkyrie-sized based you'd be looking at an area around 17" across in which all auras do not work for the entirety of your turn and their turn (until some point during the shooting phase if/when it is shot down).

Armies that are reliant on auras, or have units that serve little purpose outside of auras, could see a huge swing while this is in effect and may have little or no counter-play if an admech player can just drop the unit in from reserve and activate the stratagem.

The Newman wrote:
I think the -1 to wound outside 12" is kind of bonkers though. AdMech definitely got some very good rules in the context of 8th ed, we'll have to see how they are under 9th.

It's not strictly -1 to wound though. It has a bunch of weird breakpoints. It only helps T3 infantry against S3 and 4 weapons, where it acts like a -1. Radiant Disciples provides the most benefit to Kataphrons, which affect S3, S5, and S6 (but not S4). Unfortunately, there's never a situation where it provides more benefit than the Stygies -1 to hit, and Stygies benefits your tanks too. It'll come down to how useful the secondaries are, because Omnissiah's Shield looks awful.

 DarkHound wrote:

The Newman wrote:
I think the -1 to wound outside 12" is kind of bonkers though. AdMech definitely got some very good rules in the context of 8th ed, we'll have to see how they are under 9th.

It's not strictly -1 to wound though. It has a bunch of weird breakpoints. It only helps T3 infantry against S3 and 4 weapons, where it acts like a -1. Radiant Disciples provides the most benefit to Kataphrons, which affect S3, S5, and S6 (but not S4). Unfortunately, there's never a situation where it provides more benefit than the Stygies -1 to hit, and Stygies benefits your tanks too. It'll come down to how useful the secondaries are, because Omnissiah's Shield looks awful.

I wouldn't sleep on that rule, weird breakpoints and all. I was a little dismissive of it when Nids picked it up as a strat on the Maleceptor but every game, it came into play in a big way. I even stopped running a Malanthrope with it because -1 BS and S ended up seeming pretty unfun to my opponents. Yeah, admech army comps are significantly different but I've found that to be a very powerful rule.

(*and yeah, the other caveat; 9th could change things enough that the rule is less powerful, but we'll see)

I love the direction of the new admech rules. The whole theme is "reducing lethality".

There's one or two rules in the preview that improve the lethality of units. Every single other rule either reduces the lethality of enemy shooting or has some other effect that doesn't increase lethality (e.g. increased mobility).

If this design paradigm represents how GW is moving into 9th edition, by reducing 40k's overall lethality, I'm a happy man.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I wouldn't sleep on that rule, weird breakpoints and all. I was a little dismissive of it when Nids picked it up as a strat on the Maleceptor but every game, it came into play in a big way. I even stopped running a Malanthrope with it because -1 BS and S ended up seeming pretty unfun to my opponents. Yeah, admech army comps are significantly different but I've found that to be a very powerful rule.

The sticking point is that it has severe drawbacks, but no advantage (aside from secondaries, which probably have less significant affects). The best AdMech units are vehicles, and this never affects them.

A.T. wrote:

The Newman wrote:
You do have to get an ornithopter within 6" of the strat target to make that work, that's a fairly significant restriction.

It is a presumably fairly speedy flyer, and 9th is bringing in reserves from table edges so it may be more of a question of where you can fit its base.

With a valkyrie-sized based you'd be looking at an area around 17" across in which all auras do not work for the entirety of your turn and their turn (until some point during the shooting phase if/when it is shot down).

Armies that are reliant on auras, or have units that serve little purpose outside of auras, could see a huge swing while this is in effect and may have little or no counter-play if an admech player can just drop the unit in from reserve and activate the stratagem.

Re-read the strat, it's 'while within 6"'. An aura buffer merely has to back up to be effective again. Where it's really going to hurt is the auras that grant defensive buffs like 5+ overwatch and discouraging hero types from Heroic Intervention if they're buffers on top (or because of) being dangerous in melee as well.

A.T. wrote:

The Newman wrote:
You do have to get an ornithopter within 6" of the strat target to make that work, that's a fairly significant restriction.

It is a presumably fairly speedy flyer, and 9th is bringing in reserves from table edges so it may be more of a question of where you can fit its base.

With a valkyrie-sized based you'd be looking at an area around 17" across in which all auras do not work for the entirety of your turn and their turn (until some point during the shooting phase if/when it is shot down).

Armies that are reliant on auras, or have units that serve little purpose outside of auras, could see a huge swing while this is in effect and may have little or no counter-play if an admech player can just drop the unit in from reserve and activate the stratagem.

There are two obvious counterplays:

1- not leaving enough room for the giant flyer base near your aura-givers.

2- walking away.

'Whilst within 6"' makes it really a non-issue for offensive auras, doubly so since it only affects the aura-giver, not the recipients.
It can be reasonable if there is a defensive aura you really want to shut down, but that's its only real effect (if you can get close enough, which isn't certain). Having enough space for the base and the ability of other models to just move drastically limits the effect on enemy turns.

I'm going to assume that I ninja-ed you there Voss.

I suspect the Aura shutting down thing won't actually come up much.

Everything else though looks very powerful. I think like a lot of people I've thought Ad Mech have been on the tipping point for being really good for a while and this looks like the synergies that could throw them over the edge.

As said, a warlord trait which gives you a 25% damage buff to shooting is faintly ludicrous - especially given most old warlord traits were rubbish. S5 stubbers+this would expect to do 66% more damage versus T4 targets. Which is a bit stupid.

The Newman wrote:
Re-read the strat, it's 'while within 6"'. An aura buffer merely has to back up to be effective again.

I'm aware of the wording - my first thought when reading it was that if you can deepstrike it down within 6" of battle sisters you can knock out their -2 AP protection, 4++ saves, bodyguard rules, morale protection, and even miracle dice bonuses for saving throws from the triumph.

I wonder if synapse would be considered an aura ability.

The Newman wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm not a fan of the one that shuts down auras, especially at 1CP... In general, I don't love "oh no you don't" rules mechanisms, and this is one that can really hit an army where it hurts. There's a big difference between applying a penalty or adding a restriction and unmaking an army's cornerstone build strategy. That's just annoying to play against and it weakens one of the most consistent design elements of this edition IMHO.

You do have to get an ornithopter within 6" of the strat target to make that work, that's a fairly significant restriction.

I think the -1 to wound outside 12" is kind of bonkers though. AdMech definitely got some very good rules in the context of 8th ed, we'll have to see how they are under 9th.

Yep. Offensive auras source can generally walk out of 6"(or shoot the thing first with stuff outside the effect area).Defensie aura like KFF or VH imagifier(does AM have much -2 AP guns, rather than -0, -1 or -3 or better? Specifically -2) but there you can generally bubble wrap so you can't park the flyer within 6" of infantry. Especially orks and ESPECIALLY for foot versions(morkanaut is trickier albeit). Orks can just have bunch of boyz(you know the guys benefitting from the KFF to begin with) to make damned sure you don't land flyer within 6" of KFF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Re-read the strat, it's 'while within 6"'. An aura buffer merely has to back up to be effective again.

I'm aware of the wording - my first thought when reading it was that if you can deepstrike it down within 6" of battle sisters you can knock out their -2 AP protection, 4++ saves, bodyguard rules, morale protection, and even miracle dice bonuses for saving throws from the triumph.

I wonder if synapse would be considered an aura ability.

Thankfully sisters are generally MSU with plenty of bodies so landing that thropter within 6" of imagifier isn't that quaranteed.

Ork KFF is even more struggling. You generally have 9" bubble of orks filled to get benefit. You need to get INSIDE that bubble generally filled. Tricky prospect.

A.T. wrote:
There will inevitably be a best combination which everyone will use, and by which the effectiveness of the admech will be defined.

It's another worrying sign of 9th though. How do you determine the appropriate cost of any given unit or weapon if its final capabilities fall within such a large range.

It's actually really simple. You always balance them around the "best" combination. All the other become either narrative options or, if they're well designed, some really good players can exploit to be better than the 'best' option, at least some of the time.

 Stormonu wrote:
Radiant Disciple and Omnissiah Shield are poorly worded. Do I reduce the strength when attacking enemies or they attack me (I’m guessing the latter, but it just states “resolve an attack”, not against who). Same for Omnissiah Shield - who gets the benefit?). When I first read them I was confused, as it sounded like it benefited the enemy, which seemed wrong.

It says "against an infantry unit with this dogma"

ERJAK wrote:

A.T. wrote:
There will inevitably be a best combination which everyone will use, and by which the effectiveness of the admech will be defined.

It's another worrying sign of 9th though. How do you determine the appropriate cost of any given unit or weapon if its final capabilities fall within such a large range.

It's actually really simple. You always balance them around the "best" combination. All the other become either narrative options or, if they're well designed, some really good players can exploit to be better than the 'best' option, at least some of the time.

This method has already been shown to fail spectacularly in getting balanced army

ERJAK wrote:

A.T. wrote:
There will inevitably be a best combination which everyone will use, and by which the effectiveness of the admech will be defined.

It's another worrying sign of 9th though. How do you determine the appropriate cost of any given unit or weapon if its final capabilities fall within such a large range.

It's actually really simple. You always balance them around the "best" combination. All the other become either narrative options or, if they're well designed, some really good players can exploit to be better than the 'best' option, at least some of the time.

What kind of "best"? Best killing? Best staying power? Best scoring capacity (obsec, speed, footprint)? I nitpick as being the "best" is largely dependant on the mission or tournament format you are playing - good luck playing a killy vehicle spam in mission allowing to hold an objective with nothing but troops alone. Good luck holding the objective with your 3++ exclusive army when there's a null zone around it.

Which is why 9ed makes me hopeful. It was said at Q&A that 9ed will have missions approachable with different playstyles, so I guess "kill, score points" design is supposed to be mitigated.

The fact that you can keep units off the table will completely change the dynamic in 9th and the way one might plan to deal maximum damage.

I'm not about to say ad mech are back in town. This stuff will be cool, but when all the armies will have good stuff and all of them can hold reserves, etc. Some of this strikes me as things that will be broke as a joke out the gate and change tons within months of release. Assuming of course enough of us can even get into games with the worlds current state still.