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TheAvengingKnee wrote:
That and if the models aren’t 40k compatible I always worry that the money I invest in it will be worthLess in a year or two when GW stops support for the game.

This, so much. I feel that way about 30k. I like the system, but investing in 30k only miniatures seems a tad risky.

Cotninued support is important for players, specially when we are talking about hundreds of bucks in miniatures, and even more in value of the time invested building / painting.

I like them to, but I'd like them to keep it a low-key kind of game.

So rather than having this massive range of diverse units, they boil the armies down into a single large sprue.

So, your "Adeptus Astartes" sprue might have several stands of characters, a bunch of Tac Squad stands, half as many Assault/Dev/Termy/Scout stands, some bikes, some Land Speeders, and 6 Rhinos, 3 Predators (with turret options), 3 AA (Whithwind/Hunters), and the parts to turn 3 of the Rhinos into Vindis.

Repeat that for Guard (lots of Infantry stands, some specialists like Ogryn and Stormies, a bunch of Chimeras, 6 Russes with all the turret options, 3 Artillery bases with options to make 'em Basilisk, Manticores, etc.).

Keep the big stuff (super heavy tanks, Knights, Titans) to separate releases.

With titanicus and aeronautica being released in 8mm size I full expect gw at some point to do another SG game for epic and bump that up to 8mm too

 Imateria wrote:
They might, but expect it to be Epic Horus Heresy, where they only ever have to produce 1 army.

Originally, that was exactly what they did - the whole reason the Heresy happened is because they didn't want to risk making a load of Xenos armies if the core box didn't sell. Sunrise, sunset....

 Motograter wrote:
With titanicus and aeronautica being released in 8mm size I full expect gw at some point to do another SG game for epic and bump that up to 8mm too

Heroic 6 mm, still. Neither of those are 8 mm scale and that has been debunked a thousand times already despite what two years old marketing blurbs claimed, so simply expect better quality sculpts and details when they eventually get there but it won't invalidate Epic armies or third party designs already out there.

It is 25% of the current 40k size. LOTR is 28mm and 40k is bigger than that. 25% LOTR = 7mm, so what should be call 25% 40k? I think 8mm is fair and makes more sense than heroic 6mm. It would make no sense to call current 40k 24mm, even "heroic" 24mm.

Anyway, I recommend epic: armagedon, netepic or using epic miniatures with 40k+apocalypse expansion. All will be fun.

As far as GW coming out with something, I think at most we'll see some 30k marines and vehicles that will work with Adeptus Titanicus in an even simpler and easier to kill form than the Knight Banners currently take. And maybe not even that. Maybe the next expansion for that game will be something else entirely.

With respect, Chamberlain, that isn't really true as LOTR was smaller than the 28 mm 40k even when it came out almost two decades ago. Lots of calculations have been done on AT miniatures and known canonical heights, giving your average 180 cm tall human about ~6.5 mm height in miniature form. AT miniatures also work exactly right with other 6 mm miniature producers' lines, like Vanguard as an example.

The 8 mm scale thing is simply hogwash, that's what marines would be and they are not your regular humans to indicate scale.

I can't see infantry added to AT in any meaningful numbers beyond stratagems like Titan Hunter Infantry, the system is simply unsuited for that and the game would suffer for such additions. A combined arms game like Epic needs to be done from ground up to combine all in a suitably abstract manner... which for the time being is Apoc, if we're looking only at the recent offerings.

It has been confirmed is that epic models by forgeworld were done at 1/5 of 40k models and that AT18 by forgeworld is 1/4.

If something was 100mm in 40k then it would be 20mm in epic and 25mm in AT18. So AT18 is 125% of Epic when both are based on 40k models. If Epic is 6mm, then AT18 is 7.5mm. Which you can justify rounding up to 8mm but not down to 6mm.

Calling it 8mm is more reasonable than calling it 6mm. It's just 25% of 40k. And it makes no sense to call 40k a 24mm game.

Canonical heights are irrelevant they did not scale the models off of the canonical measurements but off of the same models in 40k scale. Whether it's the titans, the knights, the little munitorum shipping containers. They are all at 25% of their 40k equivalents.

When LOTR came out, it was 28mm. From the very first men of Gondor in the Fellowship of the Ring Box. The ones standing upright are pretty much 28mm to the eye. The ones in a more lunging stance are slightly shorter. Since then some have been released that are as tall as 32mm for a normal human sized warrior. People still mix LOTR with 28mm historicals all the time. They just look smaller than 40k because of the proportions.

We need a name for the forum law (derived from casual observation) that "As an online discussion involving Epic grows longer, the probability of it devolving into a discussion of 6mm/8mm scale approaches 1".

If people really want stuff scaled to Adeptus Titanicus to do Epic themselves using the Apocalypse rules then they're likely going to eventually consider 3d printing. It opens things up to an incredible degree.

And if you want your stuff to match the plastic knights or aeronautica flyers, you're going to want to go for 25% of 40k. If you want it to match the last produced epic stuff like Forgeworld's or their previous Aeronautica release, then you'll want 20% of 40k.



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Example. If you want to print a rhino, it's 115mm in 40k. You'll want it to be 28.75mm in AT18 and 23mm in pre-AT18 Epic scale.

If you order some Talos Syndicate from Onslaught to use as Knights, you'll be disappointed when you compare them to the plastic AT18 knights. But they are perfect for pre-AT18 epic.

 Chamberlain wrote:
It has been confirmed is that epic models by forgeworld were done at 1/5 of 40k models and that AT18 by forgeworld is 1/4.

If something was 100mm in 40k then it would be 20mm in epic and 25mm in AT18. So AT18 is 125% of Epic when both are based on 40k models. If Epic is 6mm, then AT18 is 7.5mm. Which you can justify rounding up to 8mm but not down to 6mm.

Calling it 8mm is more reasonable than calling it 6mm. It's just 25% of 40k. And it makes no sense to call 40k a 24mm game.

Canonical heights are irrelevant they did not scale the models off of the canonical measurements but off of the same models in 40k scale. Whether it's the titans, the knights, the little munitorum shipping containers. They are all at 25% of their 40k equivalents.

While not entirely incorrect, this is still misguided. The in-universe heights are absolutely vital to the whole point of calling something a scale miniature in the first place, ie. Epic was a 6 mm game because your normal human was depicted as about 6 mm tall. This whole 8 mm debacle was started by FW designers originally musing that they chose the AT scale to be such that if they were eventually to do marines too, they would still look nice and detailed and ended up with about 8 mm of height which GW's media team then falsely took as some God's word on the game being 8 mm. If your marine, fictionally about 7 feet or more, is 8 mm tall, your normal 6' human miniature ends up under 7 mm aka "heroic 6 mm". This also bears out through measurements and comparisons with other details in their kits like the Civitas terrain, doors, titan hand rails and what not. We've also seen Aeronautica sprues with grots that are the same size as grots in 6 mm lines. List goes on.

The main AT miniature designer used 1/4 as a guide, yes, but 40k miniatures have always been notoriously funky in their sizes over the decades so that is less important for the scale than the actual numbers they represent in the background. Heck, if it were the other way I WOULD call 40k for the longest time smaller than 28 mm scale because the old marine models were laughably short otherwise and that is the environment where all the titan models made during this millenium were made before AT came along. What a game actually is and what the industry calls their stuff tend to differ.

Trick is.....Epic never really had a set scale. Because the original AT didn’t.

The original infantry models were essentially as small as they could practically make them, and didn’t really scale with anything else.

The new AT however, as noted above, does have a set scale. And we can reasonably infer from Aeronautica matching it, that any future Epic game would follow its lead.

I think our only point of disagreement is whether it's better to go with the background or the physical models and their relative size to 40k.

I would say sticking to 1/4 of 40k is better than trying to do some ratio to the fiction as then your stuff will actually match the other models.

I've also found that lots of 6mm sci-fi infantry is like 7mm+ to the eye anyway. And epic vehicles over the years have been all over the place. So it's best to take things on a case by case basis and decide what you are trying to match and what looks good to you. For example, Vanguard's nova elite vehicles are considered on the large side by some Epic players and they would be perfect for mixing with AT18.

CorwinB wrote:
We need a name for the forum law (derived from casual observation) that "As an online discussion involving Epic grows longer, the probability of it devolving into a discussion of 6mm/8mm scale approaches 1".

The Epic scale debate factor?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/08/8th-aug-adeptus-titanicus-war-on-a-new-scalegw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-1/
They mentioned right at the top 8mm scale

Adeptus Titanicus is mere days away, and soon, battlegroups of Warlord Titans supported by Questoris Knights will be waging war on tabletops across the world – and we thought it was high time to talk about the game’s astonishing models. Chris Drew from the Specialist Games team is the man responsible for turning the huge Warhammer 40,000 models into their 8mm scale counterparts – and here he is to talk about the process.

It looks like they initially just scaled down the 40k scale Forgeworld Warlord model.

Pretty much, for most people that ends up meaning "those tiny dudes" anyway. Just happens to be a pet peeve of mine as an avid AT fan with lots of Epic stuff lying about

I like the more fiction simulation based approach with some handwaving for modelling realities in there, especially now that GW can kind of do a systematic reboot of their intended product line size in AT scale. Many of the traditional vehicle sizes and such are based on gaming realities in the first place, giving the same results either way.

CorwinB wrote:We need a name for the forum law (derived from casual observation) that "As an online discussion involving Epic grows longer, the probability of it devolving into a discussion of 6mm/8mm scale approaches 1".

Sad but true



Let's call it the DakkaDakka Epic ad reducto absurdum Rule

CorwinB wrote:
We need a name for the forum law (derived from casual observation) that "As an online discussion involving Epic grows longer, the probability of it devolving into a discussion of 6mm/8mm scale approaches 1".

Is this a bad time to jump in and talk about my experiments 3d-printing Epic models in 15mm scale?

Worrying about the scale seems pointless, as I think it unlikely you’ll see any kind of Epic game soon, and likely never, actually. I doubt the number of players would justify the tooling costs of all those different armies and vehicles. And let’s not sugarcoat it - Titanicus got off to a rough start, and managed to recover some since. Remember all the chatter about pricing and the contents of the Grandmaster box? And damn, those individual Warlords are still very pricey.

Meanwhile, given the lack of internet, forum, and YouTube chatter, I think Aeronautica Imperialis is on life support. It wouldn’t surprise me if it was the first Specialist game to crash and burn. And don’t get me wrong, I have stuff, and like it. But I see no one playing or talking about it, unlike there is at least some talk and playing for Titanicus. It is not a good sign at all for Aeronautica.

Titanicus is selling like hot cakes and being played a lot around the globe though, so it recovered a lot better than some. Aeronautica may well get a boost now that another whole faction gets released, as many were hesitant to join in because of the perceived lack of variety.

We just need the plastic Thunderhawks for AI and the banks will explode with money flowing to GW

With Skies of Fire the game should get a bump. The only thing it's missing is more factions. As it sits right now, there are only so many times you can play the same before variety is wanted. It is really fun and cant wait for vendettas, vultures, lighters & such.

AnomanderRake wrote:Is this a bad time to jump in and talk about my experiments 3d-printing Epic models in 15mm scale?

Going for half of 40k sizes?

I think it's a great size for gaming. Though I landed on the AT scale just so I could also use the plastics.



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 totalfailure wrote:
Worrying about the scale seems pointless, as I think it unlikely you’ll see any kind of Epic game soon, and likely never, actually.

The reason it matters is that we have sources of miniatures. We have a handful of manufacturers that have continued to support gothic sci-fi in 6mm after the end of Epic: Armageddon years ago. We now also have cheap resin 3d printing. So figuring out what works with the GW plastics can really matter when it comes to putting stuff on the table. Some things like the Onslaught Syndicate are way too small and others like Vanguard Nova Elite are perfect.

I doubt the number of players would justify the tooling costs of all those different armies and vehicles. And let’s not sugarcoat it - Titanicus got off to a rough start, and managed to recover some since. Remember all the chatter about pricing and the contents of the Grandmaster box? And damn, those individual Warlords are still very pricey.

I don't think they have to do all the different armies and vehicles. Epic: Armageddon only ever got a smattering of the possible 40k models. AT space marine set explicitly as part of 30k just needs the basic legion dudes and some vehicles and people will happily combine them with titans and knights and aircraft.

I really have no idea how well AT sold. Well enough they put out a revised rulebook in a new starter. I think it did better than they expected, which style might have been small given the prices.

 Chamberlain wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:Is this a bad time to jump in and talk about my experiments 3d-printing Epic models in 15mm scale?

Going for half of 40k sizes?

I think it's a great size for gaming. Though I landed on the AT scale just so I could also use the plastics...

The Titans are almost too big to practically use at that point, but the 3d-printed infantry come out way better than they do in 6mm.

I can't find the quote, but I recall it was 8mm so a space marine could be more detailed. Especially when you compare it to the old 6mm models. Aeronautica is also in a larger scale than the previous version. That might be a sign that they are future proofing for a possible Epic return.

Why wait for GW?

Our group just uses 8th ed rules with halved ranges for shooting and movement. it is so simple as it is especially when you ignore most stratagems and just play.

Using PL instead of points speeds things up as well. roughly we play 10K armies in 6mm scale usually only takes a couple hours and can be played on a 4X4 all the way up to a 4X8 table.


With the options of old GW epic minis on ebay along with 3rd party companies like onslaught minis, vanguard mins, trolls under the bridge (mostly for necrons and the odd guard unitss like the 6mm gorgon) and the 3d printed sellers on ebay you are able to find any unit that currently exists in the regular 40K line including most forgeworld vehicles. the titanicus titans scale with the above mentioned minis as well so..titans in the mix as well.

To get an idea about how well AT was received, the Warlord kit was GW's (as a whole) most sold kit of the year. The game was meant to be full resin but changed to plastic before launch due to huge hype from the fanbase. Separate weapon sprues were launched due to large fanbase outcries. Currently new batches of specific titan legio transfer sheets can sell out in five minutes repeatedly when GW gets some in stock. There are years' worth of expansion content in the pipelines according to the studio. It's great.

 Sherrypie wrote:
To get an idea about how well AT was received, the Warlord kit was GW's (as a whole) most sold kit of the year. The game was meant to be full resin but changed to plastic before launch due to huge hype from the fanbase. Separate weapon sprues were launched due to large fanbase outcries. Currently new batches of specific titan legio transfer sheets can sell out in five minutes repeatedly when GW gets some in stock. There are years' worth of expansion content in the pipelines according to the studio. It's great.

very much so!