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Marine players with any sense of decency simply won't use eradicators until they are fixed - hopefully in the usual 2 week cock up fix.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Marine players with any sense of decency simply won't use eradicators until they are fixed - hopefully in the usual 2 week cock up fix.

Unfortunately it doesnt look like it's just going to be eradicators that are the issue, it looks like the marine points leaks are from playtesting so unless they have gone up a lot, (unlikely since marines apparently lost 1 squad) while SoB and GSC are loosing 300 ish points of their lists and FLG implied their marine lists didnt realy change

 Mr Morden wrote:
Marine players with any sense of decency simply won't use eradicators until they are fixed - hopefully in the usual 2 week cock up fix.

More likely Marine players will say "it's about skill, L2P", and GW will release more Primaris with more unbalanced datasheets because it sells.

ERJAK wrote:
Sisters of Battle Vs. GSC from tabletop tactics had both armies running some seriously trash units, mixed in with some good ones.

Both lists were made from the new munitorum handbook and both were almost a full THREE HUNDRED points more than in 8th. It doesn't seem to be false that almost everything, even bad units, are going up in 9th; it just seems like it's false that all marine units are going up in points by an amount similar to what other armies are.

Also, keep in mind that even among SM, Assault marines went up almost 25% with no meaningful compensatory buffs, the hunter and stalker went up quite a bit despite still being terrible, and Combi-flamers went up 2 despite regular flamers going DOWN 1 point, heavy bolters and multimeltas going UP while Assault Cannons and Lascannons went DOWN.

Basically, the point changes are super schizophrenic.

Its just odd.
It looks like basic troops are going up to "create design space."
But then vehicles are going up not to create design space, but because they've had a load of buffs.
And then infantry based heavy weapons tend to be coming down, so... there isn't really a design space change.

One game doesn't dictate things - but its a bit sad when you know they've playtested the game and GSC continue to look so lacklustre even if the list isn't optimised.
Oh well. Can't be more than a week before all the points are leaked.

Here's a new thing to get salty about: they just previewed the new primaris chaplain on bike. So remember when they moved all the biker characters to legends? Well now they're back. For primaris. Don't play primaris? Tough, your guys are still in legends. Buy primaris.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Here's a new thing to get salty about: they just previewed the new primaris chaplain on bike. So remember when they moved all the biker characters to legends? Well now they're back. For primaris. Don't play primaris? Tough, your guys are still in legends. Buy primaris.

I first started laughing.

A bike lord warranted to be legended, and all the new CSM hq options have 0- mobility really, neither the exalted champ, nor warpsmith, nor MoP, and half the mobility options got curbed with the bikes to legend but marines insta get new Biker HQ.

S'fine mate.-



Forgot the apostle and the executioner

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Here's a new thing to get salty about: they just previewed the new primaris chaplain on bike. So remember when they moved all the biker characters to legends? Well now they're back. For primaris. Don't play primaris? Tough, your guys are still in legends. Buy primaris.

Where'd they show this, chief?

your welcome dysartes

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I did envision the marines getting another codex soon after the editions release. I bet it'll have just enough changes to make it a must buy and not optional, just to get that tasty marine bucks in.

It's kind of a twisted favoritism though, tons of new books and releases all the time for Marines but damn if they don't charge the player base out the nose over and over and over. Honestly at this point, as much as I don't want to say it, they should just change the game name to " Space Marines, 40,000 "

At least make it easy on new players to know who is going to get like 75% of releases each year. It's actually getting a little much. Some smattering for another faction, then half a year of marines, a few kits, then marines. Even when Marines aren't supposed to be " The " release they are still getting stuff during other factions release windows it's crazy.

I know, I know. I'm just noticing this ? I'm not I've been noticing it but each year seems to grow more with intensity of that lopsided nature in this and I doubt it'll stop any time soon.

Even beyond the broke as a joke ERADICATOR !! rules for super melta guns, I'm sorry, Melta Rifles, the barrel is rifled that is why it shoots farther of course. Best keep these salty threads flowing as I feel like we'll just see these special ++ units more and more now.

I imagine that in hindsight, GW probably wishes that they could flick a switch and have set 40k back into the Horus Heresy, where they could produce almost nothing but shades of Space Marines with the odd Imperial ally you can buy for something a little different, but still with their foot almost exclusively on the Space Marine peddle. None of those annoying NPC Factions getting in the way of clean power armour releases, just Marine, Marine, Marine for people to gobble down for pure profit. It's why, frrankly, I'm shocked 30k hasn't been brought over as a mainline game with more emphasis on cross-compatible units.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I did envision the marines getting another codex soon after the editions release. I bet it'll have just enough changes to make it a must buy and not optional, just to get that tasty marine bucks in.

It's kind of a twisted favoritism though, tons of new books and releases all the time for Marines but damn if they don't charge the player base out the nose over and over and over. Honestly at this point, as much as I don't want to say it, they should just change the game name to " Space Marines, 40,000 "

At least make it easy on new players to know who is going to get like 75% of releases each year. It's actually getting a little much. Some smattering for another faction, then half a year of marines, a few kits, then marines. Even when Marines aren't supposed to be " The " release they are still getting stuff during other factions release windows it's crazy.

I know, I know. I'm just noticing this ? I'm not I've been noticing it but each year seems to grow more with intensity of that lopsided nature in this and I doubt it'll stop any time soon.

Even beyond the broke as a joke ERADICATOR !! rules for super melta guns, I'm sorry, Melta Rifles, the barrel is rifled that is why it shoots farther of course. Best keep these salty threads flowing as I feel like we'll just see these special ++ units more and more now.

I imagine that in hindsight, GW probably wishes that they could flick a switch and have set 40k back into the Horus Heresy, where they could produce almost nothing but shades of Space Marines with the odd Imperial ally you can buy for something a little different, but still with their foot almost exclusively on the Space Marine peddle. None of those annoying NPC Factions getting in the way of clean power armour releases, just Marine, Marine, Marine for people to gobble down for pure profit. It's why, frrankly, I'm shocked 30k hasn't been brought over as a mainline game with more emphasis on cross-compatible units.

Because most people are not interested in buying a slightly different type of power armor, so they play 30k with their normal space marines they already own and don't actually increase sales.

That is why Primaris exist in the first place. To be able to sell marines to people who already have dozens of every marine model.

You know you could just use your old marine chaplain on a bike as a "counts as" primaris marine chaplain on a bike. Just saying.

 Blood Hawk wrote:
You know you could just use your old marine chaplain on a bike as a "counts as" primaris marine chaplain on a bike. Just saying.

Groovy. What do you propose for csm and orks players who lost their biker characters?

 Blood Hawk wrote:
You know you could just use your old marine chaplain on a bike as a "counts as" primaris marine chaplain on a bike. Just saying.

I've been telling people that with their regular HQs since Primaris have been a thing. Durant matter if the Primaris Captain doesn't specifically HAVE a Jump Pack, just convert it and enjoy the better proportioned models!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
You know you could just use your old marine chaplain on a bike as a "counts as" primaris marine chaplain on a bike. Just saying.

Groovy. What do you propose for csm and orks players who lost their biker characters?

the CSM should obviously just go play spikey space marines.

 Ordana wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
You know you could just use your old marine chaplain on a bike as a "counts as" primaris marine chaplain on a bike. Just saying.

Groovy. What do you propose for csm and orks players who lost their biker characters?

the CSM should obviously just go play spikey space marines.

I mean CSM players were doing that in 5th anyway with the Space Wolves codex.

Siegfriedfr wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Marine players with any sense of decency simply won't use eradicators until they are fixed - hopefully in the usual 2 week cock up fix.

More likely Marine players will say "it's about skill, L2P", and GW will release more Primaris with more unbalanced datasheets because it sells.

Well they were told the same by non marine players, and other stuff like soup in other codex etc, so it is no wonder they have little sympathy for non marine players. Specialy if the marine player plays something weak like death wing or some wierd space wolfs army.

 Ordana wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
You know you could just use your old marine chaplain on a bike as a "counts as" primaris marine chaplain on a bike. Just saying.

Groovy. What do you propose for csm and orks players who lost their biker characters?

the CSM should obviously just go play spikey space marines.

Or wait for the inevitable spikey primaris release and play their spikey chaplain on a bike then.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
You know you could just use your old marine chaplain on a bike as a "counts as" primaris marine chaplain on a bike. Just saying.

Groovy. What do you propose for csm and orks players who lost their biker characters?

the CSM should obviously just go play spikey space marines.

Or wait for the inevitable spikey primaris release and play their spikey chaplain on a bike then.

No. Primaris. In. My. Chaos Space Marines.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
You know you could just use your old marine chaplain on a bike as a "counts as" primaris marine chaplain on a bike. Just saying.

Groovy. What do you propose for csm and orks players who lost their biker characters?

the CSM should obviously just go play spikey space marines.

Or wait for the inevitable spikey primaris release and play their spikey chaplain on a bike then.

No. Primaris. In. My. Chaos Space Marines.

Hey if you're CSM I'd say be grateful to even get Primaris stats outside Possessed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
You know you could just use your old marine chaplain on a bike as a "counts as" primaris marine chaplain on a bike. Just saying.

Groovy. What do you propose for csm and orks players who lost their biker characters?

the CSM should obviously just go play spikey space marines.

Or wait for the inevitable spikey primaris release and play their spikey chaplain on a bike then.

No. Primaris. In. My. Chaos Space Marines.

Hey if you're CSM I'd say be grateful to even get Primaris stats outside Possessed.

We've been through this. Csm shouldn't have primaris, we already have our own marines+: cult troops and chosen. They just need better rules to represent them. And that doesn't necessarily mean going to 2W.

Maybe going to 3W because chaos.

 catbarf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's not them killing 100% of their points.

Three Eradicators, 12" from a Leman Russ Tank Commander. 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, ave 9 damage. That's 3/4 of the TC. TC with a Battle Cannon and Heavy Bolter is 172pts, so that's 129pts of damage.

Eradicators cost 120pts, so that's killing 108% of their points in one volley.

Bonus round: Make the LRTC the ever-popular Punisher with hull and sponson heavy bolters, for 196pts. Shoot it with Eradicators from maximum range and they average 7 damage. That's 58% damage, or 114pts of damage, 95% of their cost. If they survive to shoot a second time, it's all gravy. If they're Salamanders, that bumps them to well over 100% return from 24" away.

How many infantry with 24" range can reliably make back 75+% of their cost in one round of shooting, or > 100% if they get to half range or take the right subfaction, with no auras or CP support whatsoever? Serious question.

Easy.

Tempestus Scions.

Deep Strike a Command Squad with Plasmaguns - that's 80 points... Overcharge them. Now shoot at any target. How about a squad of Eradicators? They have a pretty good chance, even at 24" of killing 2 models in the unit, and thus recouping their cost. Now if they were inside a Valkyrie with the Kappic Eagles, getting +1 to their hit from their disembark drop, and 9" away, well lets just say they can get 150% of their cost back.

Elites aren't Troops you say?

Scion Squad with 2 Plasmaguns, 1 Plasma Pistol, costs 62 points, now they can do the same from a Valkyrie.

 Slayer6 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's not them killing 100% of their points.

Three Eradicators, 12" from a Leman Russ Tank Commander. 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, ave 9 damage. That's 3/4 of the TC. TC with a Battle Cannon and Heavy Bolter is 172pts, so that's 129pts of damage.

Eradicators cost 120pts, so that's killing 108% of their points in one volley.

Bonus round: Make the LRTC the ever-popular Punisher with hull and sponson heavy bolters, for 196pts. Shoot it with Eradicators from maximum range and they average 7 damage. That's 58% damage, or 114pts of damage, 95% of their cost. If they survive to shoot a second time, it's all gravy. If they're Salamanders, that bumps them to well over 100% return from 24" away.

How many infantry with 24" range can reliably make back 75+% of their cost in one round of shooting, or > 100% if they get to half range or take the right subfaction, with no auras or CP support whatsoever? Serious question.

Easy.

Tempestus Scions.

Deep Strike a Command Squad with Plasmaguns - that's 80 points... Overcharge them. Now shoot at any target. How about a squad of Eradicators? They have a pretty good chance, even at 24" of killing 2 models in the unit, and thus recouping their cost. Now if they were inside a Valkyrie with the Kappic Eagles, getting +1 to their hit from their disembark drop, and 9" away, well lets just say they can get 150% of their cost back.

Elites aren't Troops you say?

Scion Squad with 2 Plasmaguns, 1 Plasma Pistol, costs 62 points, now they can do the same from a Valkyrie.

Lol. valkyrie
.
The valkyrie alone is more pts then the eradicators

 Slayer6 wrote:
Tempestus Scions.

Deep Strike a Command Squad with Plasmaguns - that's 80 points... Overcharge them. Now shoot at any target. How about a squad of Eradicators? They have a pretty good chance, even at 24" of killing 2 models in the unit, and thus recouping their cost..

I call bs. Scion command squad w/4 plasmas deep striking within rapid fire distance. 8 shots. 5.33 hits. 3.55 wounds. 2.96 get through armor (2.37 if they're in cover, which they will be). So at 12" if the eradicators are out in the open you will on average kill 2. If they're in cover? Not so much. And if they're outside of 12"? Halve all that. They probably won't kill a single one.

@ Slayer 6: You mentioned that they "can get 150% of their costs back" but we are talking about average rolls...

3 Eradicators (120 points) vs. 6 Tempestus Command Squad dudes with overcharged plasma (120) (no Regiments, Chapters, Auras etc.)
24'' away the Eradicators have 6xT8/-4/D6 shots, the TCS have 6 x T8/-3/2 shots => they do less damage, regardless of target
12'' away the Eradicators have 6xT8/-4/H2D6 shots (average ~4.5 damage/shot), the TCS have 12 x T8/-3/2 shots => As long as the Eradicators don't shoot at models with to few wounds, they make more damage

Note that both units have the same BS and chance to wound, but the Eradicators have a better AP, more damage, are less squishy, tougher in Meele and don't blow up on a one.

To give some exact numbers (on average rolls from 24''/12''):
Vs. Leman Russ (T8, 3+, W12):
Eradicators: 7/9 damage = 58/75% of the tank
TSC: 3.33/6.67 damage = 27.8/55.5 % of the tank, while loosing 1-2 20 point models to overcharge

vs. T7 3+, W11 (Chimera Chassis)
Eradicators: 9/12 damage = 81.8/100%
TSC: 4.4/8.9 damage = 40/80%

vs. Eradicators (as you mentioned them): (Edited with exact values)

Exact math is a bit tricky, but from 24'' away the chance to need 1 unsaved D6 wound to kill an Eradicator is 66%,the chance to need two wounds is 30.6%, the chance to need three is 2.8%.=> 1.36 unsaved wounds/Eradicator
within 12'' the chance to need 1 unsaved wound is 88.9%, the chance to need 2 is 11.03%, the chance to need 3 is 0.0008% => 1.11 unsaved wounds/eradicator
So Eradicators vs. Eradicators: 2.66 unsaved wounds= 1.96/2.40 dead eradicators
TSC: 2.22/4.44 unsaved wounds. So 1.11/2.22 dead Eradicators.


My take away: No not even glass cannons like TSCs, that are limited to one/Tempestus Prime, blow up on a 1 and are not even close to as sturdy as an Eradicator can remove that much points in one round of shooting.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I did envision the marines getting another codex soon after the editions release. I bet it'll have just enough changes to make it a must buy and not optional, just to get that tasty marine bucks in.

It's kind of a twisted favoritism though, tons of new books and releases all the time for Marines but damn if they don't charge the player base out the nose over and over and over. Honestly at this point, as much as I don't want to say it, they should just change the game name to " Space Marines, 40,000 "

At least make it easy on new players to know who is going to get like 75% of releases each year. It's actually getting a little much. Some smattering for another faction, then half a year of marines, a few kits, then marines. Even when Marines aren't supposed to be " The " release they are still getting stuff during other factions release windows it's crazy.

I know, I know. I'm just noticing this ? I'm not I've been noticing it but each year seems to grow more with intensity of that lopsided nature in this and I doubt it'll stop any time soon.

Even beyond the broke as a joke ERADICATOR !! rules for super melta guns, I'm sorry, Melta Rifles, the barrel is rifled that is why it shoots farther of course. Best keep these salty threads flowing as I feel like we'll just see these special ++ units more and more now.

According to 4chin, the new marine codex has all of the chapters in it and clocks in at 200 pages. This will include the full rules for all of the new units.

Also, Eridacators aren't that broken. They can't DS, and they'll die to massed fire just as another other unit does. People need to stop freaking out about them, they ain't that good on paper.

 Togusa wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I did envision the marines getting another codex soon after the editions release. I bet it'll have just enough changes to make it a must buy and not optional, just to get that tasty marine bucks in.

It's kind of a twisted favoritism though, tons of new books and releases all the time for Marines but damn if they don't charge the player base out the nose over and over and over. Honestly at this point, as much as I don't want to say it, they should just change the game name to " Space Marines, 40,000 "

At least make it easy on new players to know who is going to get like 75% of releases each year. It's actually getting a little much. Some smattering for another faction, then half a year of marines, a few kits, then marines. Even when Marines aren't supposed to be " The " release they are still getting stuff during other factions release windows it's crazy.

I know, I know. I'm just noticing this ? I'm not I've been noticing it but each year seems to grow more with intensity of that lopsided nature in this and I doubt it'll stop any time soon.

Even beyond the broke as a joke ERADICATOR !! rules for super melta guns, I'm sorry, Melta Rifles, the barrel is rifled that is why it shoots farther of course. Best keep these salty threads flowing as I feel like we'll just see these special ++ units more and more now.

According to 4chin, the new marine codex has all of the chapters in it and clocks in at 200 pages. This will include the full rules for all of the new units.

Also, Eridacators aren't that broken. They can't DS, and they'll die to massed fire just as another other unit does. People need to stop freaking out about them, they ain't that good on paper.

If only marines didn't have ways to deepstrike units. Either through stratagems or models...
Heck thanks to 24" range they don't necessarily need to deepstrike. 30+d6" (move+run cause they are assault) threat range gets you pretty far

On a smaller board. (I know "optional" but not really in pick up games I'm expecting)

 Togusa wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I did envision the marines getting another codex soon after the editions release. I bet it'll have just enough changes to make it a must buy and not optional, just to get that tasty marine bucks in.

It's kind of a twisted favoritism though, tons of new books and releases all the time for Marines but damn if they don't charge the player base out the nose over and over and over. Honestly at this point, as much as I don't want to say it, they should just change the game name to " Space Marines, 40,000 "

At least make it easy on new players to know who is going to get like 75% of releases each year. It's actually getting a little much. Some smattering for another faction, then half a year of marines, a few kits, then marines. Even when Marines aren't supposed to be " The " release they are still getting stuff during other factions release windows it's crazy.

I know, I know. I'm just noticing this ? I'm not I've been noticing it but each year seems to grow more with intensity of that lopsided nature in this and I doubt it'll stop any time soon.

Even beyond the broke as a joke ERADICATOR !! rules for super melta guns, I'm sorry, Melta Rifles, the barrel is rifled that is why it shoots farther of course. Best keep these salty threads flowing as I feel like we'll just see these special ++ units more and more now.

According to 4chin, the new marine codex has all of the chapters in it and clocks in at 200 pages. This will include the full rules for all of the new units.

Also, Eridacators aren't that broken. They can't DS, and they'll die to massed fire just as another other unit does. People need to stop freaking out about them, they ain't that good on paper.

What unit can remove them efficiently?

Comparatively, there's a lot of units they can sweep off the table very efficiently.

 Togusa wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I did envision the marines getting another codex soon after the editions release. I bet it'll have just enough changes to make it a must buy and not optional, just to get that tasty marine bucks in.

It's kind of a twisted favoritism though, tons of new books and releases all the time for Marines but damn if they don't charge the player base out the nose over and over and over. Honestly at this point, as much as I don't want to say it, they should just change the game name to " Space Marines, 40,000 "

At least make it easy on new players to know who is going to get like 75% of releases each year. It's actually getting a little much. Some smattering for another faction, then half a year of marines, a few kits, then marines. Even when Marines aren't supposed to be " The " release they are still getting stuff during other factions release windows it's crazy.

I know, I know. I'm just noticing this ? I'm not I've been noticing it but each year seems to grow more with intensity of that lopsided nature in this and I doubt it'll stop any time soon.

Even beyond the broke as a joke ERADICATOR !! rules for super melta guns, I'm sorry, Melta Rifles, the barrel is rifled that is why it shoots farther of course. Best keep these salty threads flowing as I feel like we'll just see these special ++ units more and more now.

According to 4chin, the new marine codex has all of the chapters in it and clocks in at 200 pages. This will include the full rules for all of the new units.

Also, Eridacators aren't that broken. They can't DS, and they'll die to massed fire just as another other unit does. People need to stop freaking out about them, they ain't that good on paper.

Is that ALL the Chapters or still not the Wolves and Angels?

They really are completely broken - expect to be hammered in the 2 week faq.