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The leak is out there if you're so inclined. The rules are the same as the reveal announcement on Warhammer Community. That is the primary objective is determined by the mission. You select three secondary missions from four categories without repeating a category. The primary objective is worth a maximum of 15 points per turn, and each secondary is worth a maximum of 15 points total. It seems like no primary objective can be scored in the first turn, and battles last for 5 rounds. That's potentially 105 points total, plus 10 if you're using the "fully painted army" rule.

Some secondaries can't award the maximum 15 points, but are easier to achieve (like Slay the Warlord and First Strike). It seems like most secondaries will be hard to score the maximum 15, and looking at my army lists I don't really see 3 absolute must-takes in a vacuum. That bodes pretty well. While I'll redesign some elements of my list with secondaries in mind (particularly Shadow Operations) and I'll have a short list of choices, I won't know what I'm taking until I'm at the table with my opponent.

It'll be very interesting to see what happens with faction-specific secondary objectives. Hopefully they remain competitive with the generic objectives, which I think are well balanced, but I have a feeling GW will give somebody (Marines) an overpowered one at some point.

I don't think I'd take an objective that didn't have the potential for 15 points, but I'm very interested in what others think. Especially in how you guys will consider Shadow Operations objectives when list building.

You've gotten that wrong. You are allowed to score up to 45 points from the Primary Objective over the course of the game (max 15 per turn) and up to 15 points on each of the Secondary Objectives. You also get 10 VP if your army is fully painted to Battle Ready standard. The maximum VP for a Matched Play mission is therefore 100.

Thank you. I, perhaps willfully, misunderstood the "for a maximum of 15 points" line as being 15 points total rather than per turn. I've updated the OP.

So less than half your points come from secondaries rather than three quarters. I like being able to shape your gameplay more, but I get it.

I'm really jazzed about the secondary objective lists, they all look pretty interesting. I can really see how building a list around choice secondaries is going to add a whole new layer to the game. Especially when factoring in how actions work (giving up that unit's combat power for the turn), you really have to construct little teams to try and accomplish missions. I can see some armies being really sneaky with some of these secondaries, and can't wait to see what faction-specific ones they put in the new codexes.

Or just go with the flow and pick secondaries based on what your oppenent brought.

As for the missions themselves, I like them too. They finally formatted them in such a way that wasnt using up 90% of the space to say the exact same thing (deployment, scoring, game length, etc etc) so each new mission is a nice quick read. I like that they're all roughly the same core with some good twists.
I'm not a huge fan that they seem to have gone back to the alternating deployment system after the last CA missions did such a great job with igougo deployment, but I'll have to get some games in to see how that actually shakes out. Maybe with strategic reserves and increased terrain effects, it won't be a big deal. Still takes longer though.

I dig 'em. A lot of potential consequences.

ASSASSINATE - Character killing probably won't see much play unless you're facing GSC or someone with a lot of elite slot characters.
BRING IT DOWN - Titan Slayer gives a slight advantage to armies with only one Titanic unit.
SLAY THE WARLORD - no idea when I'd ever use this one.

THIN THEIR RANKS - I'd probably only see this against 'nids. Primaris benefit heavily at present so it won't be picked against them.
ATTRITION - this is the shooting castle's jam, but you can work to foil it.
WHILE WE STAND, WE FIGHT - If 3 of your most expensive models must survive. Full Knights seem sure to take this. This is otherwise very list building intensive.
FIRST STRIKE - not sure this one will see much use at max of 8

ENGAGE ON ALL FRONTS - recon that's pretty hard to score, but might be good to score casually for 10 points
LINEBREAKER - maxes in four turns, but you really need to be aggressive to keep two units wholly w/i
DOMINATION - End of turn scoring means you can push for it and score, but might be hard to max.

INVESTIGATE - hold the center, basically. You need to keep some infantry alive to keep scoring this over 5 turns. Tough.
REPAIR TELEPORT HOMER - I like this one a lot - it maxes in 3 turns, buuuut you need to survive to your next turn within their zone. If you can clear a hole and bring reserves in then you might get it turns 3/4/5.
RAISE THE BANNERS - pretty easy, but requires quite a few units doing nothing

MENTAL INTERROGATION - I want to like this, but being within 18" (24" for me) of a character with my own character all game seems really tough....and if they dispel...
PSYCHIC RITUAL - Sneak into the center for 3 turns and then bug out. Could be the one for Thousand Sons. Can't see how close to center I need to be though.
ABHOR THE WITCH - This is a nice way for T'au to get back at me. It might cause me to bring bigger units and make maxing harder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McGibs wrote:

I'm not a huge fan that they seem to have gone back to the alternating deployment system after the last CA missions did such a great job with igougo deployment, but I'll have to get some games in to see how that actually shakes out. Maybe with strategic reserves and increased terrain effects, it won't be a big deal. Still takes longer though.

I'm curious to see the tournament pack. It could have the full deploys.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
I'm not a huge fan that they seem to have gone back to the alternating deployment system after the last CA missions did such a great job with igougo deployment, but I'll have to get some games in to see how that actually shakes out. Maybe with strategic reserves and increased terrain effects, it won't be a big deal. Still takes longer though.

I'm curious to see the tournament pack. It could have the full deploys.

I think it's also important to note that you pick who goes first AFTER alternating deployment. I don't think I've seen that play out before. That means you're jockeying for position with your opponent while also gambling commitment to the first or second turn. You also have to declare any reserves before deployment, so you can't use "this unit is in deepstrike" as a "pass" to make your opponent select another deployment. There's definitely some advantage to MSU so you can deploy your most important units last and get maximum information.

And man, Raise The Banners High is throwing me for a loop. I'm not sure how to evaluate it. You can't score it on the first turn. Say you can hold an average of 2 objectives at a time. So you score about 8 points over the next 4 turns, plus 2 more for holding 2 at the end. I initially thought it would be an easy, low-commitment VP farm, but actually it seems like a real win-more choice. You really need to push to hold three objectives for a lot of the game, which would imply you were already ahead. EDIT: I take that back, this becomes hugely more powerful in missions with 6-8 objectives. If a castle army can take 3 with cheap infantry and sit on them all game, that's an easy 15 points.

Repair the Teleport Homer seems extremely risky. You can't reasonably complete it with cheap chaff unless you find a way to get out of LoS. Maybe it's score-able against melee armies who have to leave their deployment zone anyway. Actually, if you pay to outflank a cheap unit, you could arrive in their deployment zone on turn 3 and score on turns 3, 4, and 5. Now that would be one hell of a tactical gamble, and may disrupt their ability to cover the main objectives in the midfield if they try to counter you.

That being said, Investigate Sites is probably the most consistent one. Flood the midfield with infantry and blast the enemy out each turn. Still, super dependent on layout of the main objectives and each army's composition. I really like that in game design. It's a real strategic choice about how you're going to play that battle.

What i'm liking is that the killing secondaries are all dependent on the opponent bringing a skew list.

5 chars
2 LoW
150 models
5 big tanks/Monsters

It encourages the combined arms approach in list building.

That is an interesting point I hadn't quite considered from a metagame perspective. I had initially considered the secondaries from a pure Knight Titan perspective and figured 'eh, they get a free-be with Titan Slayers, but at least they don't score against 3 or 4 Armigers.' But for other armies that have the choice to skew or not, that does strongly encourage diversity to prevent an opponent getting a "free" 15 points as a matter of course during the battle. You really want to force your opponent to stretch and take some risk for points. Every additional objective they have to consider is another opportunity for mistakes.

Incidentally, my 1500pt AdMech+Knights list has only 1 titanic unit, 4 other vehicles, and 3 characters. Technically they can get 15 from Bring It Down if they go out of their way to kill all my vehicles (as the Knight still counts as a 10+ wound vehicle), but the only time that's going to happen is if I'm getting tabled anyway.

Yeah I've been looking at it from Pure Knight and Tau vrs Marine's.
They are getting almost guaranteed to give away a lot of points, while actually getting anyone of thes secondarys shown so far to pay out close to maximum points is a challenge.

The lack of a secondary for killing multi wound units like Gravis, Wracks is disappointing.

There are very few useful secondaries for killing outside of the skew cases anyway. You really have to focus on board control instead. At a glance, the secondaries associated with each mission seem really powerful and demand very particular board control. It's important that the secondaries aren't revealed until both players have locked them in. If you both go for similar board control secondaries, you'll end up contesting each other and potentially make for a low-scoring game.

In that case, I could imagine guessing the opponent's secondary choices and instead opt for lower scoring objectives that also let me contest theirs. Instead of us both scoring 20 points on secondaries, I could aim to score 30 (instead of trying for 45) and keep him at 20.

I'm most excited for the high objective number missions like Pathway to Glory, All-out War, and Lines of Battle. The combination of mission-secondaries and Shadow Operations are really going to affect how you play. For example on All-out War with a fast Eldar-like army against a Guard castle: I can imagine the Guard castle sitting on the center of the map to get Investigate Sites, Domination, Psychic Ritual. Meanwhile the Eldar could skirt the edges for Engage on All Fronts, Surround Them, and set 3 Raise the Banners High that they know the slow Guard won't contest. The Eldar could even plan for a bottom-of-turn-5 dive on the four deployment objectives to maximize Surround Them. The Guard are tied to the center of the field for all their points, while the Eldar merely need to pry open the deployment zone objectives to break Domination for a round or two and maximize their Surround Them. The Eldar actually don't have to engage the bulk of the Guard army directly, and can use their fast units to pick out and overwhelm weak links in the castle, just like an actual strategic battle.

Indeed, the battle could easily become one of who gets to fulfill his own agenda.

Remember also that the game is only 5 turns and tabling doesn't end the game. If you take the lead for 3 turns, you have probably won even if tabled.

So far apparently we have the BRB matched play secondary missions there is apparently more secondary missions in CA 2020that we haven't seen yet. Aswell as faction specific Secondarys which will be in the 9th edition codex's
So first to get a codex has an advantage as they will have their secondarys first.

Hi there folks!

Apologies, but would someone kindly point me in the direction of the secondary objective list leak(s)?

I tried looking around for it but can't seem to find them.

Thanks!

Best,

Blackberry

blackberry wrote:
Hi there folks!

Apologies, but would someone kindly point me in the direction of the secondary objective list leak(s)?

I tried looking around for it but can't seem to find them.

Thanks!

Best,

Blackberry

Sent you a PM that should help.

Ice_can wrote:
So far apparently we have the BRB matched play secondary missions there is apparently more secondary missions in CA 2020that we haven't seen yet. Aswell as faction specific Secondarys which will be in the 9th edition codex's
So first to get a codex has an advantage as they will have their secondarys first.

Don't the first factions to get new codexes in a new edition always have an advantage? Don't let it get you down though, because they'll be pretty bad towards the end of the edition after gw switches design philosophy at some point. Just ask Grey Knights, Death Guard, and csm players.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
So far apparently we have the BRB matched play secondary missions there is apparently more secondary missions in CA 2020that we haven't seen yet. Aswell as faction specific Secondarys which will be in the 9th edition codex's
So first to get a codex has an advantage as they will have their secondarys first.

Don't the first factions to get new codexes in a new edition always have an advantage? Don't let it get you down though, because they'll be pretty bad towards the end of the edition after gw switches design philosophy at some point. Just ask Grey Knights, Death Guard, and csm players.

I really hope we don't do an arms race, but based on this I think we'll already be rushing to fill those gaps.

The new AdMech units already have a unit that makes use of 'Remain Stationary'.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
So far apparently we have the BRB matched play secondary missions there is apparently more secondary missions in CA 2020that we haven't seen yet. Aswell as faction specific Secondarys which will be in the 9th edition codex's
So first to get a codex has an advantage as they will have their secondarys first.

Don't the first factions to get new codexes in a new edition always have an advantage? Don't let it get you down though, because they'll be pretty bad towards the end of the edition after gw switches design philosophy at some point. Just ask Grey Knights, Death Guard, and csm players.

I really hope we don't do an arms race, but based on this I think we'll already be rushing to fill those gaps.

The new AdMech units already have a unit that makes use of 'Remain Stationary'.

Of course there's going to be an arms race Daed, there's always an arms race. It never stops. The 9th edition arms race started with Space Marines 2.0. It's gw's business plan. They're like arms dealers selling to every side in a major war.
Doesn't mean we have to like it though.

But those "gaps" just keep getting bigger with every new primaris release. Something's got to give. A lot of factions need updates, now. They've been left behind and are surviving with wonky tactics and lists cobbled together from multiple books and FAQs. It's no fun trying to fight with Iron Age weapons against an opponent who just discovered gunpowder.

I don't like ITC secondaries that much but this new missions are basically ITC done wrong.


I hope they change them in 2021 CA because damm. With how good were CA 2019 missions...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
But those "gaps" just keep getting bigger with every new primaris release. Something's got to give. A lot of factions need updates, now. They've been left behind and are surviving with wonky tactics and lists cobbled together from multiple books and FAQs. It's no fun trying to fight with Iron Age weapons against an opponent who just discovered gunpowder.

They aren't supposed to win(except between each other). NPC's to be blasted apart by the master race of marines. Bang bang NPC xenos. Learn to accept your place in the game. If you aren't loyal marine you are food for them.

 Galas wrote:
I don't like ITC secondaries that much but this new missions are basically ITC done wrong.


I hope they change them in 2021 CA because damm. With how good were CA 2019 missions...

Care to explain why?

Well apparently the secondarys are designe to be impoasible to maximum score.

Well unless you bring two titanic units at which point you give your opponent 15VP when they kill them turn 1.

Ice_can wrote:
Well apparently the secondarys are designe to be impoasible to maximum score.

Says who? In general, it seems like skew armies get one secondary that benefits them, and one that hurts them. The Purge the Enemy category and Thin Their Ranks are obviously designed to penalize skew lists. Elite armies will almost certainly max Attrition. Fast armies are going to find it easy to max Engage on All Fronts. Some assault armies will max Line Breaker. Lots of secondaries are maxable in certain missions by certain armies. Castle armies will max Raise the Banners High on missions where they can hold 3 objectives. It's going to come down to player skill to identify the match-up and pick secondaries you can actually maximize

It's a good thing you can't identify 3 best secondaries you'd take for your army in all situations; that's boring game design. I think consideration for each secondary is going to have to involve mission and match-up for context.

Seems like 9th is going to be both fun and interesting.

Ice_can wrote:
Well apparently the secondarys are designe to be impoasible to maximum score.

Well unless you bring two titanic units at which point you give your opponent 15VP when they kill them turn 1.

There's more than that. Bring Them Down is going to be an automatic 15VP against Drukhari, probably by turn 2 at the latest given how easy it is to kill off Venoms and Ravagers, will give huge points against an all Harlequin list whilst being an autotake against Craftworlds. There's another one that gives out 3VP a turn for kill more, well thats another auto 15VP against Drukhari because I can't remember a game where my opponent didn't kill more per round simply through the fact that the army has always been mass MSU where everything is easily expendable.

This is my problem with the entire ITC style set up, tayloring your mission to the armies, especially with how diverse the range of armies is, is always going to result in some armies being unfairly penalised in such a set up, and in the cases above pretty badly. Add to that the primary objectives are identical in the 6 strike level missions I looked at (1001-2000pts) and your left in the position where every game is a boring exercise of rinse and repeat.

This is a real shame given how good the Chapter Approved 2019 missions are, they are both relatively balanced and diverse, certainly vastly more than the new missions are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkHound wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Well apparently the secondarys are designe to be impoasible to maximum score.

Says who? In general, it seems like skew armies get one secondary that benefits them, and one that hurts them. The Purge the Enemy category and Thin Their Ranks are obviously designed to penalize skew lists. Elite armies will almost certainly max Attrition. Fast armies are going to find it easy to max Engage on All Fronts. Some assault armies will max Line Breaker. Lots of secondaries are maxable in certain missions by certain armies. Castle armies will max Raise the Banners High on missions where they can hold 3 objectives. It's going to come down to player skill to identify the match-up and pick secondaries you can actually maximize

It's a good thing you can't identify 3 best secondaries you'd take for your army in all situations; that's boring game design. I think consideration for each secondary is going to have to involve mission and match-up for context.

The last 3 years of ITC have already shown that if you can build lists that avoid giving up secondaries then you're in the best possible position and the armies that can't do that struggle. There doesn't tend to be much skill involved in that aspect of things, beyond learning to pick a codex.

 Imateria wrote:

There's more than that. Bring Them Down is going to be an automatic 15VP against Drukhari, probably by turn 2 at the latest given how easy it is to kill off Venoms and Ravagers, will give huge points against an all Harlequin list whilst being an autotake against Craftworlds.

You'd have to kill 8 such vehicles to max. If you've lost that many you're close to tabled anyway aren't you?

There's another one that gives out 3VP a turn for kill more, well thats another auto 15VP against Drukhari because I can't remember a game where my opponent didn't kill more per round simply through the fact that the army has always been mass MSU where everything is easily expendable.

Isn't this the edition of MSU? Isn't a punishment for MSU worthwhile in that regard? Abhor the Witch will be rough against me. So either i'll take bigger units or accept that my opponent will score easier in that regard - and that teleporting a unit out of combat might be a wise decision. The problem with attrition is you can't go too hard or you'll otherwise run out of easy units to kill. Its only when you can't kill anything that it becomes an easy slide. But then that's what reserves are for - you'll know their secondaries before reserves.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

There's more than that. Bring Them Down is going to be an automatic 15VP against Drukhari, probably by turn 2 at the latest given how easy it is to kill off Venoms and Ravagers, will give huge points against an all Harlequin list whilst being an autotake against Craftworlds.

You'd have to kill 8 such vehicles to max. If you've lost that many you're close to tabled anyway aren't you?

There's another one that gives out 3VP a turn for kill more, well thats another auto 15VP against Drukhari because I can't remember a game where my opponent didn't kill more per round simply through the fact that the army has always been mass MSU where everything is easily expendable.

Isn't this the edition of MSU? Isn't a punishment for MSU worthwhile in that regard? Abhor the Witch will be rough against me. So either i'll take bigger units or accept that my opponent will score easier in that regard - and that teleporting a unit out of combat might be a wise decision. The problem with attrition is you can't go too hard or you'll otherwise run out of easy units to kill. Its only when you can't kill anything that it becomes an easy slide. But then that's what reserves are for - you'll know their secondaries before reserves.

I've lost 5 Venoms in a single turn before and still won, they are cheap and you take loads of them after all and as I said, the entire army is designed so that everything is expendable. Unless I've completely kerbstomped my opponent I don't generally expect to finish a game with more than 750-1000pts of my army left at best even if I win. And yes, it will be the MSU edition but few armies run anywhere near as many units on the table as Drukhari (Venom + Kabalite Warrior squad is only 100pts), I can easily get 25 units down.

My point was that its a bad system, it unfarily punishes certain armys pretty hard, and replaces a better system.

You are saying the system is bad because it actively encourages you to not place MSU?

They don't strike me as very well balanced.

Some of them are essentially flat-out impossible to max no matter what list you bring (e.g. recon - you have to literally have units in all four board corners, more than 6" from the center, every single turn of the game, including T1, to max it).

Others are extremely easy to max in some match-ups - if your list can kill knights it's a pretty safe bet you'll max that one against a knights list, for example, or abhor the witch if you don't have psykers and are fighting GK or TSons. Kill more will be easy for many lists, especially since it can be maxed in 4 turns rather than 5 like for basically everything else similar. Conversely, if your opponent's list can't kill your heavies, that's pretty much a guaranteed 15 points too.

Some them are just epically bad - slay the warlord, for example. Or mental interrogation: to max this, you have to: (1) have a psyker that does no psychic powers the entire game, (2) remains within 18" of an enemy character all game, (3) passes the test (this is easy) and is never denied (this is potentially very hard).

The limits on others seem just weirdly unrealistic, but exploitable at the same time - teleport homer requires: (1) an infantry unit, (2) fully within your opponent's deployment that (3) does nothing and (4) survives your opponent's whole turn. But weirdly, this doesn't have the restriction (no characters) that the others do - so you can pull some weird drop pod tricks with this, by dropping in a pod with a character in it and hiding the character behind the pod, meaning they have to destroy your pod and whatever else is in the the pod (vets with storm shields comes to mind) before they can shoot your character that's doing the action. This is also super exploitable with the Ordo Xenos psychic power, if it didn't get nerfed in Pariah (which we'll find out tomorrow). Or Psychic Ritual - this is pretty terrible on 5 of the 6 2k missions, but on the 5th, the one with a central objective, this becomes a power combo with the mission secondary, as you have a real chance of getting 50 points (5 each turn after the first for holding, 15 for ritual, 15 for secondary) just by holding a single objective all game, particularly if your opponent doesn't have psykers to deny with.

You may be mistakenly assuming the idea is to routinely max them / select ones you can max, as was previously the case for popular missions of this sort.

You may also be mistakenly assuming these were designed for hardcore competative play and not garage hammer.