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So will the change to 9th Edition carry over to Apocalypse? Or will they likely continue to keep the units the way they are now?

Hopefully with this massive release of new units they do a mass update for apoc datasheets.

Unfortunately, I feel like Apoc died on the vine. It's a fantastic core system with only a relative few balancing issues in datasheets, but largely a great game. But sadly, no one seems to be discussing it.

It's likely we'll get a few new datasheets for new units in time, but I doubt existing datasheets will be updated.

Part of the issue with Apoc was alot of the armies lost a lot of flavour with the rules in Apoc. While I get not wanting every infantry unit to have unique rules but when LoW have zero customisation it made it feel very bland.

Ice_can wrote:
Part of the issue with Apoc was alot of the armies lost a lot of flavour with the rules in Apoc. While I get not wanting every infantry unit to have unique rules but when LoW have zero customisation it made it feel very bland.

It felt a lot like index 40k from back at the beginning of 8th. In fact, I bet that's kinda what happened since it takes about two years to develop these sorts of things. After the 8th rules were completed in 2017, they were handed off to a specialist games group and told to turn that into apocalypse, with few considerations given to all the codex flavors that came after. Just like the early 8th rules were tight if bland, so too is apocalypse.

 Cheex wrote:
Unfortunately, I feel like Apoc died on the vine. It's a fantastic core system with only a relative few balancing issues in datasheets, but largely a great game. But sadly, no one seems to be discussing it.

It's likely we'll get a few new datasheets for new units in time, but I doubt existing datasheets will be updated.

Would you say it’s safer to go the route of big game of 40K instead?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
Unfortunately, I feel like Apoc died on the vine. It's a fantastic core system with only a relative few balancing issues in datasheets, but largely a great game. But sadly, no one seems to be discussing it.

It's likely we'll get a few new datasheets for new units in time, but I doubt existing datasheets will be updated.

Would you say it’s safer to go the route of big game of 40K instead?

I think apoc is a much better experience. You just wont have the latest units until/if gw decides to update the sheets or you decide to house rule them yourself.

Ice_can wrote:
Part of the issue with Apoc was alot of the armies lost a lot of flavour with the rules in Apoc. While I get not wanting every infantry unit to have unique rules but when LoW have zero customisation it made it feel very bland.

Thats all of 8th IMO. And Apoc was actually really fun when you played it, just from what i've seen no one even wants to give it a try.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
Unfortunately, I feel like Apoc died on the vine. It's a fantastic core system with only a relative few balancing issues in datasheets, but largely a great game. But sadly, no one seems to be discussing it.

It's likely we'll get a few new datasheets for new units in time, but I doubt existing datasheets will be updated.

Would you say it’s safer to go the route of big game of 40K instead?

Depends on what you want out of it. I feel like you could do anything under 3k points in 9th edition with no problems, but anything larger than that or if you want multiple players per side then you might want to pick up Apoc.

My problem with Apoc isn't the "blandness" - things need to be distilled to their most basic elements at this scale - but instead is to do with accessibility.

Unlike 40k or AoS, the core rules are not free and are only available in a pricey box. This means that whoever owns the rules needs to set aside time to teach everyone else how to play. There is a quick tutorial video on the GW YouTube channel, but I'm not sure I would rely on players in a group of 3+ to all watch it in their own time. The game is easy enough to teach, but you'd definitely need to set aside time before the game to explain how it all works, especially the little things like ideal detachment composition (i.e. don't mix shooty and assaulty in a single detachment).

And then there are the asset cards. The only way to get half of the cards is to buy the Apoc box, which will end up coming with a ton of faction cards that most players will never use, and then there's the card expansion set.

IMHO, GW needs to do three things to make Apoc more accessible:
1. Release the core rules (i.e. everything other than faction bonuses and missions) for free.
2. Release the Universal asset cards separately.
3. Release faction-specific asset cards as booster packs (and give every faction the same number of cards!).

Again, the actual rules for Apoc are fantastic, so if you think you can get around the above problems then I say go for it.

Im currently about 70% motivated to see the rules of 9th and just make a mash up rule set that takes the best of both.

It will be interesting to see if the support Apocalypse. I think they should, and I think the suggestions for improvement are great.

It think that 9th has some cool concepts that have promise for Apocalypse support. Supreme Commanders as a unit type feels in line with apocalypse.

Changes to aircraft, and especially distinctions between aircraft and flying may imply more aircraft models, which is also very good for apocalypse.

I don't own Apocalypse yet; I want it, but I have many medium sized and many small armies, but no really big ones yet. If it gets support, or even if it is just still hanging on by the time one of my armies is big enough, I'll pick it up.

If they decide to cut it, I hope it goes to last chance to buy rather than just disappears.

A current 2k army is roughly 150ish PL in apoc which is good for 3-5 detachmenta depending on how you set them up and army (detachments are activations). 100-150ish pl is a great nornal sized game. You really dont need a massive army to play apoc and have fun.

Apocalypse has its own rules, no need to replace them. I know I won't buy another Apo set as I bought the last one because it was a self-contained set without anything more necessary, something 40K generally lacks.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Apocalypse has its own rules, no need to replace them. I know I won't buy another Apo set as I bought the last one because it was a self-contained set without anything more necessary, something 40K generally lacks.

This basically.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Part of the issue with Apoc was alot of the armies lost a lot of flavour with the rules in Apoc. While I get not wanting every infantry unit to have unique rules but when LoW have zero customisation it made it feel very bland.

Thats all of 8th IMO. And Apoc was actually really fun when you played it, just from what i've seen no one even wants to give it a try.

I think it might have something to do with that 100$ buy-in and the fact that you can't easily port someone over from regular 40k to apoc, they have to download all different datasheets.

The times I've actually managed to get people to the table with it, they've had a fantastic time, the problem has been getting over that hurdle.

I don't care at all about Apoc, for different reasons:
- it plays differently from 40K, so I'd have to learn a new ruleset
- I'd have to buy more stuff (rulebook, tokens, movement trays)
- I don't like most of the rules, based on the battle reports I've seen
- I don't like playing with tokens, same reason why I don't really like Kill Team
- I want my apocalypse-sized games to last for days (a whole day or a whole weekend), I don't want them to be over quickly
- nobody around here plays it, I doubt anyone have even bought the box set

Since I feel I may not be the only one thinking this and it seems that Apoc was a flop, I doubt it'll get meaningful support going forward.

 Aenar wrote:
I don't care at all about Apoc, for different reasons:

- I want my apocalypse-sized games to last for days (a whole day or a whole weekend), I don't want them to be over quickly

To this point, an apocalypse-sized game of 40k would maybe take longer time-wise, but would absolutely take a much ,MUCH shorter time turn-wise. Units just shovel each other off the board in standard 40k compared to apoc, where two detachments can have an actual firefight for several turns, especially if they're entrenched in terrain.

Part of the reason I love apocalypse is how much comparatively slower things die, and how much faster it is to resolve actions so you can get to the next decision. In 40k, if I want to shoot with 30 ork boyz, I'm rolling dice for a solid 15 minutes just to resolve the attack. In apoc, it takes less than 1 minute to roll whatever 12 shots.

You are far more likely in a game of apoc to have a unit moving around on the board doing stuff for 3-4 turns than in an apocalypse sized game of 40k, where all the stories you'll tell are "Remember when this unit was on the board for 1 turn, then it got targeted by the first shooting attack that pointed at it and it just died?"

I'm still a little bitter about Apocalypse. I love the core rules, thought they were a great improvement over 8th, and tried my best to get everyone I knew involved in it. Bought the box set on release and played one game because nobody else I knew wanted to get into it for reasons similar to what Aenar said. Ironically I think it would have worked better as a standalone game with Epic sized models (I totally understand the logistical reasons for that not happening), because a lot of people seem to ask "why should I learn a new system to play with the same models". If they do update Apoc, I doubt it will make anymore people play unfortunately.

Love Apocalypse. It’s my favorite way to play 40k, and contrary to lingering myths, games are fast and it works very well with standard sized 40k armies (1500-2000 points). It has more strategic depth even with its less granular units, and it’s simply more fun to play IMO. I hope GW adds new APOC data sheets for newly released models and they update the few broken data sheets. But even if they don’t I plan to continue playing APOC with the armies I have collected.

 Cheex wrote:
Unfortunately, I feel like Apoc died on the vine. It's a fantastic core system with only a relative few balancing issues in datasheets, but largely a great game. But sadly, no one seems to be discussing it.

It's likely we'll get a few new datasheets for new units in time, but I doubt existing datasheets will be updated.

I don't think it died. It just doesn't have mass appeal. Apoc is for garagehammer guys that want to dump time into a huge sprawling game.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
Unfortunately, I feel like Apoc died on the vine. It's a fantastic core system with only a relative few balancing issues in datasheets, but largely a great game. But sadly, no one seems to be discussing it.

It's likely we'll get a few new datasheets for new units in time, but I doubt existing datasheets will be updated.

I don't think it died. It just doesn't have mass appeal. Apoc is for garagehammer guys that want to dump time into a huge sprawling game.

...Yeah, not like baseline 40k, which is for real tactical gamers who know how fun it is to roll for shots, roll to hit, reroll to hit, roll to wound, reroll to wound, roll saves, then roll damage, then remove models one at a time for maximal tactical effect.

If you have seen or have resolved a shooting phase for a unit of aggressors in 8th edition 40k and can, with a straight face, say that apoc is for people who want to "dump time into a huge sprawling game" then I'm not really sure what to say to ya.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
Unfortunately, I feel like Apoc died on the vine. It's a fantastic core system with only a relative few balancing issues in datasheets, but largely a great game. But sadly, no one seems to be discussing it.

It's likely we'll get a few new datasheets for new units in time, but I doubt existing datasheets will be updated.

I don't think it died. It just doesn't have mass appeal. Apoc is for garagehammer guys that want to dump time into a huge sprawling game.

...Yeah, not like baseline 40k, which is for real tactical gamers who know how fun it is to roll for shots, roll to hit, reroll to hit, roll to wound, reroll to wound, roll saves, then roll damage, then remove models one at a time for maximal tactical effect.

If you have seen or have resolved a shooting phase for a unit of aggressors in 8th edition 40k and can, with a straight face, say that apoc is for people who want to "dump time into a huge sprawling game" then I'm not really sure what to say to ya.

I think you're misunderstanding my statement and employing a whole bunch o' hyperbole. But I guess since you think it takes 15 minutes to shoot boyz...

Yeah, I think Apoc suffers from the image issue. The vast, vast majority of players do not have Apoc sized armies. Collections of models? Sure, everybody's got a pile of shame. But coherent alliances of factions to make a playable army (let alone painted)? Nah.

The game runs fine at standard game sizes, but you won't know that until you play it. And you won't play it unless you and a friend both have an Apoc army worth fielding.

 DarkHound wrote:
Yeah, I think Apoc suffers from the image issue. The vast, vast majority of players do not have Apoc sized armies. Collections of models? Sure, everybody's got a pile of shame. But coherent alliances of factions to make a playable army (let alone painted)? Nah.

The game runs fine at standard game sizes, but you won't know that until you play it. And you won't play it unless you and a friend both have an Apoc army worth fielding.

Yep. 100% of people I've played it with went in thinking it was this vast, sprawling, huge game and just...didn't realize it was just "40k, but with all the weird extraneous bloat stripped away and with fewer dice".

I don’t necessarily want to have a massive army, but honestly Apocalypse is the only way to use a DKoK army for its full fluff effect.