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I suppose it's because GW knows that the investment of making the marine character is likely to be made back. Though I'd also argue that orks tend to be fanatical converters. Any model that's useful for that will be bought at least once, possibly multiple times. I know I have 3 copies of Grukk and the AOS megaboss that got converted in various ways for various uses.

cody.d. wrote:
I suppose it's because GW knows that the investment of making the marine character is likely to be made back. Though I'd also argue that orks tend to be fanatical converters. Any model that's useful for that will be bought at least once, possibly multiple times. I know I have 3 copies of Grukk and the AOS megaboss that got converted in various ways for various uses.

That's why I am forever disappointed that they made looted wagons a non-matched play option instead of a mainstay codex datasheet. Given how much Orks convert other army vehicles into our army, why would they not take extra money from cross-army kitbashing?

Generic mega armor warboss with some bits to make him named
Or generic weirdboy to make him into a named would be fine

I don´t know about a new Boy kit as GW tends to make fixed pose models nowadays, which is less variation. It´s just boring to me.

In other news I played against new Necrons with a custom dynasty with a melee slant. They had the 6" pre-game move, which is quite good with such a durable army. It forced me to react or else he´d own the whole midfield and win on Primaries. Lucky we are no slouches in melee so I could counter attack and wrestle back the objectives, but I liked the strategy. (Manz > Lychguard ) It´ll be interesting to see more of it.

 Grimskul wrote:
I would love to see Nazdreg as our BM character, he's part of the reason why tellyporta technology got perfected in his partnership with Ghazzy. It would be another mega armour boss which could be a dual kit to make regular Mega Armoured Warbosses again!

Old Zogwort would be an ideal Snakebite leader, though he could also arguably be a Freeboota since he's more of a mercenary for hire at this point than strictly a Snakebite.

Ol Zogwort is not a snakebite character though. His lore says he is a feral ork who became a freeboota.

Some HQ characters would be really nice. We have almost nothing now.

Scactha wrote:
I don´t know about a new Boy kit as GW tends to make fixed pose models nowadays, which is less variation. It´s just boring to me.

In other news I played against new Necrons with a custom dynasty with a melee slant. They had the 6" pre-game move, which is quite good with such a durable army. It forced me to react or else he´d own the whole midfield and win on Primaries. Lucky we are no slouches in melee so I could counter attack and wrestle back the objectives, but I liked the strategy. (Manz > Lychguard ) It´ll be interesting to see more of it.

Can you cover more of the events and both of your lists? I had a nailbiter of a game yesterday against some melee necrons and their potential durability+punching power really took me by surprise. I play Evil Sunz so not getting Obsec on my infantry really, really sucked compared to my normal experience on fighting Eldar. I think I managed to tie the game only due to our wide arsenal of causing mortal wound on the Nightbringer on different phases (especially exploding vehicles). A charging Bonebreaka couldn't finish a squad of Lychguard which then grew back around it due to some character sticking by. I also lost 3 meganobz to breakout rolls On the other hand the bulk of their army seems quite slow and easily avoidable by our vehicles. A squad of 20 warriors can only hold one objective at a time, so I guess bullying them with Obsec 5-man kommando squads would deny a lot of points. Alas, no such fun for Evil Sunz.

Btw, I've now played 4 games using the Boomdakka Snazzwagon and I have to say I love that thing. It's dead fast when playing Evil Sunz and is perfect for stealing objectives from small infantry squads. For 90 points being -1 to hit, T6 and W8, w/ Grot Bumber and no decrading profile means a high risk/low reward deal for enemy AT and a pretty damn tough nut to crack for S4-5 shooting. It packs a respectable amount of dakka, can mop up the leftovers of small squads in melee and explodes on 50/50. Yesterday it exploded on 7-wound Nightbringer, taking it down to 5 wounds. On my turn it was then easy to shoot the thing with rokkits (S8 and constant D3 being perfect for hunting C'tan) and then finish the deal with Ramming Speed. All great fun. I see no reason to not carry my da fastest buggy around in the future too.

Yea.. i always thought it was odd how there werent any HQ choices for snakebites and Bad moonz yet Goffs have 3 HQ choices (well 2 if we count Ghazz and makari as one).

On a side note:
Is there no semi competitive way (or just fun casual way that wont let you lose all the time) to use a horde of maybe 60-90 Boyz with shootas for massed volley fire? And then some other elite choice.

I think one day when i have enough ork models ill try to do that. Maybe add some flash gitz and some tanky units to see what happens.

have anyone here tried massed boyz shootas in a list since 9th?

 AarresaariAarre wrote:
Can you cover more of the events and both of your lists?

Weird that we had such similar games. Anyway, this was just 1250 because he´s just back into the hobby. The gist of it was that he had a flank of Warriors + Overlord + Lychguard and another of Skorpekh Lord + Scorpekh Destroyers + Warriors on the other. (So no C'Tan)

He advanced on a line, but was divided into two parts due to a wood just by the center. I deliberated if it´d be worth it to tarpit one flank as this would delay the other coming in support. If I didn´t he´d own the whole midboard as I wrote before. Thus I sent my attack force of Trukk w Manz and Warboss + 3 Nobz Trikes + Defkilla escorted by a KBB on the Overlord/Lychguard/Warrior-flank. The buggy roasted 7 Warriors with Burnin' Highway and the Trukk + Bikes charged in to tarpit him. His mistake here was to expose his Overlord and that´s probably the major difference between games. By 2nd turn the Overlord was down and Lych melted faster than Orks.

Another note on the game is the worth of having a reserve to react with and how well Dreads do that. I had Grots, Boyz, Scrapjet and a Dread by my backline taking pot shots. Midgame the Scrapjet captured the centre objective for a short while, but the Dread really shone by being a serious melee threat that rushed up and minced the Scorpekhs.

 AarresaariAarre wrote:
Btw, I've now played 4 games using the Boomdakka Snazzwagon and I have to say I love that thing. It's dead fast when playing Evil Sunz and is perfect for stealing objectives from small infantry squads. For 90 points being -1 to hit, T6 and W8, w/ Grot Bumber and no decrading profile means a high risk/low reward deal for enemy AT and a pretty damn tough nut to crack for S4-5 shooting. It packs a respectable amount of dakka, can mop up the leftovers of small squads in melee and explodes on 50/50. Yesterday it exploded on 7-wound Nightbringer, taking it down to 5 wounds. On my turn it was then easy to shoot the thing with rokkits (S8 and constant D3 being perfect for hunting C'tan) and then finish the deal with Ramming Speed. All great fun. I see no reason to not carry my da fastest buggy around in the future too.

That´s a good observation. It´s a chaff killer with increased durability in an environment where players park soft units on objectives. I use the KBB/Burnin' Highway for that role, but your plan seems wholly viable too. Good find.

Boomdakka Snazzwagon is strictly worse at everything than the KBB.

The only thing it has going for it is the -1 to hit, which is not worth all the things you lose by not taking a KBB.

Most people talking about the explosion also seem to forget that the range of that explosion is random as well - the extra chance of exploding on a 4 and 5 is mitigated by not hitting anything with it when you roll a low explosion radius.

Beardedragon wrote:
Yea.. i always thought it was odd how there werent any HQ choices for snakebites and Bad moonz yet Goffs have 3 HQ choices (well 2 if we count Ghazz and makari as one).

Mek Boss Buzzgob is also Goff.

Here is my low hanging fruit wishlist
1) Make the tellyporta option in the mega armor box make a Named badmoon nazdreg mega armor warboss with special Tellyporta, and will either double saw or Saw and mega kannon
He needs a reroll wounds of 1 shooting aura to bring badmoons back up.
2) make the grukk face rippa datasheet match play legal For generic goff warboss
3) make a plastic weirdboy w named ol zogwart snakebite option- special power converts A friendly ”clan” model into a monstrous squig- 40mm base model comes with weirdboy
4) named plastic mekadread for deathskulls- let’s bring dread lists back!!! Fragrak the Planetsmasha would be ideal to join ghaz Waagh...

Plastic Kommandos that don't cost $50 for 5 of them.

Buff Burna's/Lootas/Tankbustas and other "elite" units so they are more durable. In an edition where a Basic Marine just became twice as hard to kill but only went up in price 20% I think we are going to need 4+ armor on those elite units and possibly other things.

SemperMortis wrote:
Plastic Kommandos that don't cost $50 for 5 of them.

Buff Burna's/Lootas/Tankbustas and other "elite" units so they are more durable. In an edition where a Basic Marine just became twice as hard to kill but only went up in price 20% I think we are going to need 4+ armor on those elite units and possibly other things.

Yeah, I really dislike how hesistant they are to change stats for Ork units when it comes to saves and other characteristics. Lootas, Kommandos, and Tankbustas at the very least should have a 5+ save, if not 4+. With how underwhelming lootas already are (and how likely they are to take away shooting twice from Bad Moons) they may as well just give them Heavy 3 for their Deffguns. Same thing with Burna Boyz, make them a flat 3 shots each for burnas if they're not going to even do us the solid of making them D6 shots each.

Surprised no one has brought this up, but if they're going to keep grots at 5 points, they have to be at least WORTH that much. Making them always count as being in dense and light terrain (to reflect their small size) would make taking them more palatable, or having strats beyond grot shields where they can suicide bomb themselves in combat for mortal wounds on 5+ or something. Would there be even a point in buffing their ranged damage or giving them T3? Not sure, but even pre-game scouting ability like Nurglings wouldn't be bad.

I want to take 2 deathskull “warbosses” a ride.

1x warbos + da biggest boss
1x megamek + da klever boss

Now the question is, how do you balance their melee weapon?

Mek can have the PK. So my plan now is give him Killa Klaw and have 5x10/-3/3 with full rerolls on wound and one on hit

Now the warboss - let' s give him a Killchoppa and warlord + Might is right = 6x 9/-2/2 with some rerolls and some MW. S9 wounds tanks, damage 2 gives me the rare option to kill 4wound bikers and 2wound marines effectiely.

Both have WS 2+, both have decent durability.

Non of them is optimal deathstar (warboss+trait+killaklaw) but I see a power in redundancy. What is more - except combination warboos + biggest boss + might is right + killaklaw, I don' t see the upgrade in rising Strenght. What is the benefit of 12 over 10? The combo described above gives me S14 = wound rhino and similars on 2+. That is only worth it imho.

Have you went through this balancing already?

perhaps if GrotShields was an innate ability instead of a strat we could better justify the 5ppm.

At least then you can say youre paying for a proper shield and can now effectively cover multiple units, and not get baited to protect 1 unit then switch targets.

Theres no way theyre gonna make grots effective, even at 5ppm. It would "just be wrong to have grots outshining boyz" - its probably why we havnt seen any grot gunners yet either (snipers, bigshootas, etc)

Scactha wrote:]Weird that we had such similar games. Anyway, this was just 1250 because he´s just back into the hobby. The gist of it was that he had a flank of Warriors + Overlord + Lychguard and another of Skorpekh Lord + Scorpekh Destroyers + Warriors on the other. (So no C'Tan)

He advanced on a line, but was divided into two parts due to a wood just by the center. I deliberated if it´d be worth it to tarpit one flank as this would delay the other coming in support. If I didn´t he´d own the whole midboard as I wrote before. Thus I sent my attack force of Trukk w Manz and Warboss + 3 Nobz Trikes + Defkilla escorted by a KBB on the Overlord/Lychguard/Warrior-flank. The buggy roasted 7 Warriors with Burnin' Highway and the Trukk + Bikes charged in to tarpit him. His mistake here was to expose his Overlord and that´s probably the major difference between games. By 2nd turn the Overlord was down and Lych melted faster than Orks.

Another note on the game is the worth of having a reserve to react with and how well Dreads do that. I had Grots, Boyz, Scrapjet and a Dread by my backline taking pot shots. Midgame the Scrapjet captured the centre objective for a short while, but the Dread really shone by being a serious melee threat that rushed up and minced the Scorpekhs.

Sounds fascinating! Were you afraid of the Lychs' melee before they went down? They don't seem so hard on paper, but they can get quite big when buffed.

What were your ending scores?

That´s a good observation. It´s a chaff killer with increased durability in an environment where players park soft units on objectives. I use the KBB/Burnin' Highway for that role, but your plan seems wholly viable too. Good find.

Jidmah wrote:Boomdakka Snazzwagon is strictly worse at everything than the KBB.

The only thing it has going for it is the -1 to hit, which is not worth all the things you lose by not taking a KBB.

Most people talking about the explosion also seem to forget that the range of that explosion is random as well - the extra chance of exploding on a 4 and 5 is mitigated by not hitting anything with it when you roll a low explosion radius.

While I agree completely that KBB as a screen clearer/frontline chaf-muncher is much more potent than the Snazzwagon, I have to disagree that the latter is strictly worse at everything. I think SW is not supposed to be used in the offensive role KBB shines in, but it's much better at making it to the lonely/softly guarded objectives and staying there. KBB has nothing going on defensively which basically means that if the opponent wants it dead there's only little risk involved. On the other hand SW's -1 to hit and Grot Bumber auto-passing one wound roll rises the risk of wasting AT fire. Both can quite reliably take a backwater objective from any basic 5-man grabber unit (KBB much more reliably of course), but KBB then needs either terrain help (which is situational) or repeated cp spend to raise it's survivability to SW's level and even then doesn't have the "pass one damage roll" card in it's sleeve when you really need to make it through one more round. And if it get's charged by something that wants the objective back (which will have to be something bigger than what was there earlier), SW has a 3 times better chance to explode on it's face causing some mortal wound as a revenge.

This all of course comes from my perspective as a very low-level local scene player. I'm sure there's a reason why Snazzwagons don't show up in GT tier lists and KBBs do. I'm also sure that in most cases one gets more out of a KBB investment than SW one. But I don't think KBBs do everything better than a SW. Indeed I think Snazzwagons have a small but existing role as a fast (especially Evil Sunz) and cheapish objective grabbers that are annoying enough to take down to discourage trying.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
perhaps if GrotShields was an innate ability instead of a strat we could better justify the 5ppm.

At least then you can say youre paying for a proper shield and can now effectively cover multiple units, and not get baited to protect 1 unit then switch targets.

Theres no way theyre gonna make grots effective, even at 5ppm. It would "just be wrong to have grots outshining boyz" - its probably why we havnt seen any grot gunners yet either (snipers, bigshootas, etc)

And realistically, I can't see GW doing much if anything for grots without releasing a new kit. Grot snipers would be fun, so would grotz actually getting access to range 24-30 guns. Fluff wise it makes sense, they are cowardly so they would rather sit back and shoot (AKA Mek Gunz).

 Vineheart01 wrote:
perhaps if GrotShields was an innate ability instead of a strat we could better justify the 5ppm.

At least then you can say youre paying for a proper shield and can now effectively cover multiple units, and not get baited to protect 1 unit then switch targets.

Theres no way theyre gonna make grots effective, even at 5ppm. It would "just be wrong to have grots outshining boyz" - its probably why we havnt seen any grot gunners yet either (snipers, bigshootas, etc)

True, though personally I would have a bad taste in my mouth if they became like what shield drones saviour protocols were for Tau.

It's weird they have an aversion for grots in 40k when they play a significantly larger role in AoS, since once they finally update the few resin kits in the Ork army, having more grot-centric units would be easy avenue for GW to take to expand the Ork range.

They wouldnt be as dumb as shield drones unless they gave them a FNP against the redirect and came in several small squads instead of 1-2 large ones.

Grots can still be clean-sweeped by whatever high rate of attack has range on them, youre better off killing the grots than trying to force through the 2+ to hit the boys behind them in that case.
Shield drones are usually in small squads, T4, and a 4++ so its difficult to target them first and not massively overkill them or get unlucky and plink off doing nothing at all.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
They wouldnt be as dumb as shield drones unless they gave them a FNP against the redirect and came in several small squads instead of 1-2 large ones.

Grots can still be clean-sweeped by whatever high rate of attack has range on them, youre better off killing the grots than trying to force through the 2+ to hit the boys behind them in that case.
Shield drones are usually in small squads, T4, and a 4++ so its difficult to target them first and not massively overkill them or get unlucky and plink off doing nothing at all.

Valid point. It would also make taking Loota Squads and Flash Gitz more viable if the Grot shield rule was built in since you don't have to keep spending CP each turn to keep them alive.

Just played against the new necrons... all I have to say is that the new Nightbringer is a ing NIGHTMARE.

Yeah necron players arent expecting it to last that long.
Its unusually strong vs the other ctans, and the same exact cost.

Kinda sad i dont have one so i cant relish in its OP'ness in marine faces while it lasts lol

 Jidmah wrote:
Boomdakka Snazzwagon is strictly worse at everything than the KBB.

The only thing it has going for it is the -1 to hit, which is not worth all the things you lose by not taking a KBB.

Most people talking about the explosion also seem to forget that the range of that explosion is random as well - the extra chance of exploding on a 4 and 5 is mitigated by not hitting anything with it when you roll a low explosion radius.

I agree on paper, I took some as a joke once and now I include 1-2 in all my buggy lists.

The -1 to hit, as how many attacks they get while in combat is pretty impressive. The explosion radius is random but ideally you will have them explode on things that killed them in assault.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah necron players arent expecting it to last that long.
Its unusually strong vs the other ctans, and the same exact cost.

Kinda sad i dont have one so i cant relish in its OP'ness in marine faces while it lasts lol

You know the SM whining about it will fill the heavens in GW HQ until it gets mega-nerfed into the ground. Especially when it denies them so much of their toys.

 AarresaariAarre wrote:
While I agree completely that KBB as a screen clearer/frontline chaf-muncher is much more potent than the Snazzwagon, I have to disagree that the latter is strictly worse at everything. I think SW is not supposed to be used in the offensive role KBB shines in, but it's much better at making it to the lonely/softly guarded objectives and staying there. KBB has nothing going on defensively which basically means that if the opponent wants it dead there's only little risk involved. On the other hand SW's -1 to hit and Grot Bumber auto-passing one wound roll rises the risk of wasting AT fire.

You're right on the defensive parts, but I've never found -1 to hit to make a difference for a buggy. If my opponent needs it to die, it will. If you really feel that it would make a difference, you can always use the Billowing Exhaust Cloulds stratagem on a KBB. I honestly have never used the grot bumper, because my opponents have always ignored it because it deals almost no damage or ground it down over time with weapons that had nothing else to shoot or were 1 damage anyways.

Both can quite reliably take a backwater objective from any basic 5-man grabber unit (KBB much more reliably of course), but KBB then needs either terrain help (which is situational) or repeated cp spend to raise it's survivability to SW's level and even then doesn't have the "pass one damage roll" card in it's sleeve when you really need to make it through one more round. And if it get's charged by something that wants the objective back (which will have to be something bigger than what was there earlier), SW has a 3 times better chance to explode on it's face causing some mortal wound as a revenge.

I actually have a snazzwagon which I proxy as KBB now. My main gripe with it was that it in fact regularly fails to clear those units which have no purpose but grabbing objectives because of its low damage, while a KBB does much more damage, has a spiked ram and can improve that damage through CP. In 9th it also can shoot all its weapons when in combat, while the snazzwagon loses its grenades because of blast.
When facing a durable army like marines, necrons or daemons, I don't see a snazzwagon taking an objective from them - it would just stay stuck in combat for ever.

This all of course comes from my perspective as a very low-level local scene player. I'm sure there's a reason why Snazzwagons don't show up in GT tier lists and KBBs do. I'm also sure that in most cases one gets more out of a KBB investment than SW one. But I don't think KBBs do everything better than a SW. Indeed I think Snazzwagons have a small but existing role as a fast (especially Evil Sunz) and cheapish objective grabbers that are annoying enough to take down to discourage trying.

Your meta really doesn't matter for your perspective, it's valuable either way.
The truth is that a KBB is better at shooting anything from infantry to vehicles, and not just by a bit that might not be noticable. It's almost twice as good at kill the snazzwagon's preferred targets, and that's even before you use the silly powerful burnin' highway stratagem. The snazzwagon has no sawblade and no spiked ram so it's melee ability is pretty much non-existent as well, and the average five hits from shooting will not help either, it's only melee asset is being able to explode. The KBB on the other hand has a spiked ram and is a decent candidate for firing overwatch, which is not unlikely to cause more damage than that explosion.
So while I understand why the snazzwagon seems like a good choice, my experience from running them side by side multiple times is that I never once hope for a KBB to be a snazzwagon, but regularly wished that I had brought a KBB instead of a snazzwagon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
The -1 to hit, as how many attacks they get while in combat is pretty impressive. The explosion radius is random but ideally you will have them explode on things that killed them in assault.

It has the same amount of attacks as any other buggy though?

 AarresaariAarre wrote:

Spoiler:

Scactha wrote:]Weird that we had such similar games. Anyway, this was just 1250 because he´s just back into the hobby. The gist of it was that he had a flank of Warriors + Overlord + Lychguard and another of Skorpekh Lord + Scorpekh Destroyers + Warriors on the other. (So no C'Tan)

He advanced on a line, but was divided into two parts due to a wood just by the center. I deliberated if it´d be worth it to tarpit one flank as this would delay the other coming in support. If I didn´t he´d own the whole midboard as I wrote before. Thus I sent my attack force of Trukk w Manz and Warboss + 3 Nobz Trikes + Defkilla escorted by a KBB on the Overlord/Lychguard/Warrior-flank. The buggy roasted 7 Warriors with Burnin' Highway and the Trukk + Bikes charged in to tarpit him. His mistake here was to expose his Overlord and that´s probably the major difference between games. By 2nd turn the Overlord was down and Lych melted faster than Orks.

Another note on the game is the worth of having a reserve to react with and how well Dreads do that. I had Grots, Boyz, Scrapjet and a Dread by my backline taking pot shots. Midgame the Scrapjet captured the centre objective for a short while, but the Dread really shone by being a serious melee threat that rushed up and minced the Scorpekhs.

Sounds fascinating! Were you afraid of the Lychs' melee before they went down? They don't seem so hard on paper, but they can get quite big when buffed. What were your ending scores?

Yes, 2 swings at St6 AP3 and 4++ was intimidating, but the point of the attack wasn´t to clear the area as much as a delaying action. He kept buffing them until the Overlord went down, but since we were just trading blows over 2-3 turns Orks were satisfied. The KBB and some Grotz could control the objective those Necrons were aiming for. He conceded at end of T3 with a difference of 20-30 points although I don´t remember the exact score (fun fact was that I picked Assassinate and killed his 3 chars 4 times )

And I guess Jidmah is right on the SW. I concede that I´ve not used it and the problem with lack of melee effectivness is reasonable. KBB packs more punch.

Hey guys.

I was thinking of ordering a Big Trakk, what are your experiences with this vehicle? i was thinking of donning it with Supa-Schorchas for the long range flame throwers, but this bad boy has so many customizable ways to be used.

I dont own any my self so i have not used them in battle before.

Kinda sad that "Da Boomer" can only be equipped by gun wagons, and not Big trakks who can otherwise also equip a Kill kannon

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah necron players arent expecting it to last that long.
Its unusually strong vs the other ctans, and the same exact cost.

Kinda sad i dont have one so i cant relish in its OP'ness in marine faces while it lasts lol

Strong vs other C'tans or against Ghazzy. With his (the Nightbringer) profile, I would be surprised if he didn't kill Ghazz in one turn.

Beardragon - ha! I'm checking the same thing right now, except I have one already glued and primed

1. It is one of the coolest models we have. Really nice vehicle and with supa kannon - it looks marvelous. Buy it before someone scrap it from FW page.

2. KBB discused above has however much more dakka for 50% of the points. Big trakk has 6 transport capacity and more wounds, but is still “weak”. BW is significantly harder. So autohiting 24 range is the main adventage...

3. Big trakk is faster (14”) but degrades and has no cc power.

Conclusion = I don ' t see the niche to use it.

Like a weapon platform, it has not enought dakka.
Like hard transport, it is too soft and expensive.
Like fast shock troop it lacks any cc abilities.

I hope new FW rule book gives him more dakka and we' ll have a fast weapon platform.