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Beardedragon wrote:
Right and that.

If you use a goff gorkanaut and use the smash profile, then you start out with 18hits to begin with when not injured. If you get a 6, does that too generate 3 more hits or just 1 more hit? If 3 more, then it would get a gazillion hits with just a few 6s? Which should happen with a start of 18 hits.

Im assuming its 3 extra, but that Also sounds borderline crazy

IIRC the goffs rule is to "make another to hit roll" and not to "make another attack" so each 6 generates 1 extra hit roll, and not 3.

Huh, that actually is right. I've been playing it wrong.

Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.

But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.

Death Guard don't have a cap on 10 because they both have an old codex and because they rarely appear in numbers greater than 10.

that they dont go above 10 often doesnt matter to the balance of that ability. They CAN go above 10 meaning 20 grenades being flung in to my face with D6 type, if they attack my 30 stack boyz with just 15 grenades making 6 hits each? im gone with the wind. Unless you go Goff there isnt a whole lot of reason to go 11+ boyz as Orks anyway so why should we be max'd at 10 when others dont? doesnt seem fair. They can also couple it with a range 12 stratagem. Sure you blow more CP on it, but you also get to annihilate something with it.

And then theres the poxwalkers who can be giving extra additional mortal wounds on 6s which is pretty damn handy with that weird ability whos name i forgot, coupled with the character that forgoes charge phase so those that charged cant attack first, sitting inside a crowd of plaguemaries with cloud of flies so he also cant be attacked.

So i can neither remove him with ranged nor melee without going through those poxwalkers hitting me first with additional mortal wounds hits too.

with much terrain this can be quite a daunting task to deal with, when theres also a barrage of over 50 grenade hits flying over the walls hitting my boyz.

Because thats what i had to deal with last time when i played Goff. Sure if i had a gorkanaut or some chaff clearing it would be less painful but my chaff clearing was from Boyz, which got hit first by those mortal wounds poxwalkers. So yea, pretty good synegy, something which orks dont have at all.

I cant imagine being Khorne daemons and being unable to hit hit first on my own charge, that HQ unit just insane for his ability to nullify close range armies.

Beardedragon wrote:
Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.

But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.

I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.

A Gorka wouldnt be OP with 3 hits per 6. There are already armies out there that do that already, Blood Angel's, Space Wolves for instance which are far superior in combat that any Ork unit.

DDD's exploding 6s is just to gen an additional attack whilst other armies have it as an additional hit. And Orks dont exactly vomit shots out like some other factions.

Stuff like our relics, where our scorched git bones is +1 to cast to our powers of the Waaagh! others get +1 to cast and deny, reroll a dice/know an extra spell.

So whilst it might feel OP to us, it's pretty much the norm to others. Ragnar with touch of the wild back when it was around was crazy, what about Blood Angels now with like 5-6 attacks a model for Deathcompany with up to AP 3 chainswords when you get it all set up right.

Orks have the potential if GW wouldnt purposefully stunt our units effectiveness compared to Imperial equivalents.

I'd wager the Gorka/Morkas will get some work when our codex comes round.

 deffrekka wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.

But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.

I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.

A Gorka wouldnt be OP with 3 hits per 6. There are already armies out there that do that already, Blood Angel's, Space Wolves for instance which are far superior in combat that any Ork unit.

DDD's exploding 6s is just to gen an additional attack whilst other armies have it as an additional hit. And Orks dont exactly vomit shots out like some other factions.

Stuff like our relics, where our scorched git bones is +1 to cast to our powers of the Waaagh! others get +1 to cast and deny, reroll a dice/know an extra spell.

So whilst it might feel OP to us, it's pretty much the norm to others. Ragnar with touch of the wild back when it was around was crazy, what about Blood Angels now with like 5-6 attacks a model for Deathcompany with up to AP 3 chainswords when you get it all set up right.

Orks have the potential if GW wouldnt purposefully stunt our units effectiveness compared to Imperial equivalents.

I'd wager the Gorka/Morkas will get some work when our codex comes round.

You are right. it bothered me when i played, i think it was custodies, and they had something that gave him an extra hit on, i think a 6, and not a hit roll. Why must i do a roll when he just gets the hit?

I feel like many things orks has is just so inferior to what others have for seemingly no reason. Bad HQ choices that are all only able to do one thing not several (where as other HQ choices can do many things often), Only one psyker that dont even have a pistol, a warboss that can literally only attack and has nothing else going for him except the charge aura, a big mek with KFF that should not be an HQ choice, the KFF should have been something the regular "mek" can have thus making him useful. Big mek with KFF feels like a damn elite choice. the same goes for the Shokk attack gun version. Other HQ choices often also have interesting aura abilities, which we mostly, again, do not.

No invul saves on anything at all except ghaz and relics and kustom jobs for maybe the battlewagon and you know what? i dont mind not having much invul save, if our characters and units just hit better to make up for it, or something. And grots units that cant use stratagems nor be affected by kulture, and despite this, their price isnt adjusted accordingly. GW just looked at the stats and went: yea this seem right" and forgot about the fact they cant be buffed by stratagems nor kulture.

Boring stratagems that are often situational, very few can be used in most battles no matter what set up you use (when CANT death guard use cloud of flies?). Psyker abilities that are subpar to what others can do. Like "BLADES OF PUTREFACTION" which is just borderline psychotic for a psyker to be able to cast, when what we can do is Ead' banger, Warpath and Roar of Mork. The last one is useless, Ead' Banger is situational by a large margin, and Warpath is decent, but not as good as Blades of Putrefaction. Even Da Jump is situational, yet very good, but compared to what other psykers have, our psychic abilities just arent interesting at all. Da Jump is great tho but it becomes situational when we only ever invest in 1 psyker in our army due to all the other things we need (warbosses of a sort, often a KFF and weirdboy) and with the lack of psychic abilities on other characters, then our psyker just.. cant cast enough psychic abilites. I feel like with the ork setup meta, our weirdboy should be able to cast two abilities by standard and 3 with Warphead + deny the with 3 times with warphead. We have one da jump spot, one smite, and one other utility ability that often ends up being Fist of Gork.

Also CURSE OF THE LEPER which will mostly target chaff infantry that has either 3 or 4 toughness, you are bound to kill quite a few units. We have Da Krunch which only destroys units on 6's. Yes we can potentially do it again, but thats unlikely to happen. Curse of the Leper is just outright better.

It is a completely personal opinion when i say, that Orks dont have very interesting synegy with one another, and our stratagems and psychic abilities are not interesting either. We have a focus on attacking, yet even our attacks dont seem very good. Ork Boyz dont even have -1 AP on our choppas. Also our save is on 6 for boyz, where as i believe Guardsmen have a save of 5. how does that even make sense.

The new Codex cant come fast enough, as there are so many things i feel like need changing.

Also whats up with the big shoota? 3 shots with strength 5 no AP? yea right. I get its assymetrical, and factions shouldnt be mirrored, but i dont feel like Orks are good enough at what they're meant to be good at, namely attacking. And maybe thats because i started out playing as Goff, but from 8th to 9th there was also just a huge wave of nerfs for close range units that just didnt help at all.


I didnt even mean to start a rant yet here i am. I just look at many of my things and catch my self thinking: compared to what others have, what I have, is often utter garbage. It doesnt mean the Orks dont have redeeming factors, they are just far in between these days i feel. The only reason the Goff list is winning tournements is because everyone else brings anti elite armies and .. well Goff isnt exactly elite focused, so they waste +2 damage shots on boyz.

Beardedragon wrote:
Boring stratagems that are often situational, very few can be used in most battles no matter what set up you use (when CANT death guard use cloud of flies?).

Cloud of flies must be used in your movement phase, before you know how your shooting and assaults go, only works on infantry and only protects units from not getting shot unless it's the closest. For armies like harlequins this is but a minor inconvenience.

Psyker abilities that are subpar to what others can do. Like "BLADES OF PUTREFACTION" which is just borderline psychotic for a psyker to be able to cast, when what we can do is Ead' banger, Warpath and Roar of Mork. The last one is useless, Ead' Banger is situational by a large margin, and Warpath is decent, but not as good as Blades of Putrefaction.

What makes you think blades is better? Because it would be insane on boyz? That's precisely why orks shouldn't have something like that.

Also CURSE OF THE LEPER which will mostly target chaff infantry that has either 3 or 4 toughness, you are bound to kill quite a few units. We have Da Krunch which only destroys units on 6's. Yes we can potentially do it again, but thats unlikely to happen. Curse of the Leper is just outright better.

Curse of the leper is warpcharge 7 and there is no way to get a casting bonus for DG. Against T3 it deals 3-4 mortal wounds, against T4 does 2-3.
A weird boy with 30 orks nearby not only almost always succeed smite, but rolling a 7+ will cause d6 mortal wounds to any target, irrespective of its toughness.
Da Krunch does the exact same thing als DG's Plague Wind, but it has a change to trigger twice, while plague wind doesn't.

i dont feel like Orks are good enough at what they're meant to be good at, namely attacking. And maybe thats because i started out playing as Goff, but from 8th to 9th there was also just a huge wave of nerfs for close range units that just didnt help at all.

Melee and goff became massively more powerful from 8th to 9th, up to the point where they are regularly taking tournaments. Having played them myself, I can assure you that Goff have never been more powerful.

The only reason the Goff list is winning tournements is because everyone else brings anti elite armies and .. well Goff isnt exactly elite focused, so they waste +2 damage shots on boyz.

Yeah, no. Goff are winning tournaments because everyone is going into melee in the middle of the board to get objectives and that is exactly what goffs are the best at.

Yeah goffs are winning because the main reason they sucked in 8th is gone - they want melee, they want it fast, but had no way to get it fast.
Now its fast. Either the enemy comes to you, or the enemy isnt scoring.

Beardedragon wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.

But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.

I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.

A Gorka wouldnt be OP with 3 hits per 6. There are already armies out there that do that already, Blood Angel's, Space Wolves for instance which are far superior in combat that any Ork unit.

DDD's exploding 6s is just to gen an additional attack whilst other armies have it as an additional hit. And Orks dont exactly vomit shots out like some other factions.

Stuff like our relics, where our scorched git bones is +1 to cast to our powers of the Waaagh! others get +1 to cast and deny, reroll a dice/know an extra spell.

So whilst it might feel OP to us, it's pretty much the norm to others. Ragnar with touch of the wild back when it was around was crazy, what about Blood Angels now with like 5-6 attacks a model for Deathcompany with up to AP 3 chainswords when you get it all set up right.

Orks have the potential if GW wouldnt purposefully stunt our units effectiveness compared to Imperial equivalents.

I'd wager the Gorka/Morkas will get some work when our codex comes round.

You are right. it bothered me when i played, i think it was custodies, and they had something that gave him an extra hit on, i think a 6, and not a hit roll. Why must i do a roll when he just gets the hit?

I feel like many things orks has is just so inferior to what others have for seemingly no reason. Bad HQ choices that are all only able to do one thing not several (where as other HQ choices can do many things often), Only one psyker that dont even have a pistol, a warboss that can literally only attack and has nothing else going for him except the charge aura, a big mek with KFF that should not be an HQ choice, the KFF should have been something the regular "mek" can have thus making him useful. Big mek with KFF feels like a damn elite choice. the same goes for the Shokk attack gun version. Other HQ choices often also have interesting aura abilities, which we mostly, again, do not.

No invul saves on anything at all except ghaz and relics and kustom jobs for maybe the battlewagon and you know what? i dont mind not having much invul save, if our characters and units just hit better to make up for it, or something. And grots units that cant use stratagems nor be affected by kulture, and despite this, their price isnt adjusted accordingly. GW just looked at the stats and went: yea this seem right" and forgot about the fact they cant be buffed by stratagems nor kulture.

Boring stratagems that are often situational, very few can be used in most battles no matter what set up you use (when CANT death guard use cloud of flies?). Psyker abilities that are subpar to what others can do. Like "BLADES OF PUTREFACTION" which is just borderline psychotic for a psyker to be able to cast, when what we can do is Ead' banger, Warpath and Roar of Mork. The last one is useless, Ead' Banger is situational by a large margin, and Warpath is decent, but not as good as Blades of Putrefaction. Even Da Jump is situational, yet very good, but compared to what other psykers have, our psychic abilities just arent interesting at all. Da Jump is great tho but it becomes situational when we only ever invest in 1 psyker in our army due to all the other things we need (warbosses of a sort, often a KFF and weirdboy) and with the lack of psychic abilities on other characters, then our psyker just.. cant cast enough psychic abilites. I feel like with the ork setup meta, our weirdboy should be able to cast two abilities by standard and 3 with Warphead + deny the with 3 times with warphead. We have one da jump spot, one smite, and one other utility ability that often ends up being Fist of Gork.

Also CURSE OF THE LEPER which will mostly target chaff infantry that has either 3 or 4 toughness, you are bound to kill quite a few units. We have Da Krunch which only destroys units on 6's. Yes we can potentially do it again, but thats unlikely to happen. Curse of the Leper is just outright better.

It is a completely personal opinion when i say, that Orks dont have very interesting synegy with one another, and our stratagems and psychic abilities are not interesting either. We have a focus on attacking, yet even our attacks dont seem very good. Ork Boyz dont even have -1 AP on our choppas. Also our save is on 6 for boyz, where as i believe Guardsmen have a save of 5. how does that even make sense.

The new Codex cant come fast enough, as there are so many things i feel like need changing.

Also whats up with the big shoota? 3 shots with strength 5 no AP? yea right. I get its assymetrical, and factions shouldnt be mirrored, but i dont feel like Orks are good enough at what they're meant to be good at, namely attacking. And maybe thats because i started out playing as Goff, but from 8th to 9th there was also just a huge wave of nerfs for close range units that just didnt help at all.


I didnt even mean to start a rant yet here i am. I just look at many of my things and catch my self thinking: compared to what others have, what I have, is often utter garbage. It doesnt mean the Orks dont have redeeming factors, they are just far in between these days i feel. The only reason the Goff list is winning tournements is because everyone else brings anti elite armies and .. well Goff isnt exactly elite focused, so they waste +2 damage shots on boyz.

No offense, but you seem to have the "grass is greener" perspective at the moment given that you're pretty new to Orks and 40k in general it seems. Orks actually haven't been in a good place like we have been now in a long time, where we have both green tide and buggy spam being viable competitively at the same time (though not to the exact same level for one another depending on the meta). For once we don't have to rely on gimmicks like Evil Sunz+Da Jumping/Tellyporting to get to grips with the opponent, with the changes in 9th ed, the opponents are for once coming to us, which gives us a whole new playing field. Are there areas of improvements Orks need? Sure. But if you look at the rankings for Orks so far, we're doing a LOT better than some other factions, Death Guard included. Want to feel better about Orks? Read the rules on Imperial Guard, Craftworld Eldar and Tau. Now those guys have it rough.

Goffs trump Evil Suns because the speed they give isn't that relevant anymore.

It's not incorrect to say Green Tide is benefiting in tournaments from an eagle eyed focus on Space Marines. In fact, the green tide list would probably be irrelevant if another horde army was popular.

I am not sure buggy lists are still that relevant. Perhaps they were a few months ago, but recently they haven't seemed to be winning much (or is it just me ? Perhaps I missed some tourney results proving my point wrong)

From having played a few games against against actually powerful lists operated by decent players and having dug into tournament reports and lists a bit, I think the massively reduced ability to gun down hordes does not stem from everyone tailoring against marines, but because people are dropping shooting units in favor of melee units and durable objectives campers.

Even powerful melee units like troupes or blade guard bounce off a 30 strong blob of boyz since morale no longer helps killing them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:
I am not sure buggy lists are still that relevant. Perhaps they were a few months ago, but recently they haven't seemed to be winning much (or is it just me ? Perhaps I missed some tourney results proving my point wrong)

Goonhammer's data seems to imply that the list is indeed powerful and is winning a lot, but fails to win tournaments because some armies are just hard counters to them, with the biggest offender being harlequins. Almost army-wide -1 to hit and dozens of meltas just wreck buggies.

I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.

Just a heads up, the guard Grenadiers strategem is written pretty much identically to the Ork one. We can only chuck 10 grenades as well. If a guard player is using that and having 30 conscripts or a combined 20 man squad throwing grenades at you tell him to read his codex some more. Part of why I like to ask people if I can flip through their codexes. Usually just helps me with familiarizing myself with new armies but also helps you call people out when they forget how something like that works. I may not even read anything when I'm flipping through the codex, but that little action gives me the authority to say something like "hey I just flipped through your codex and I'm pretty sure it didnt work that way."

As far as the grass being greener, try playing guard. It should be a pretty good hint that guard are in a rough spot if I'm looking at picking up orks to have some more enjoyable games. We're basically trending listwise into a worse version of you guys. Heavy reliance on infantry but our infantry are either 10 man squads or conscripts, we'd kill to have platoons back. Most of our tanks are overpriced for what they do so we're reliant on the hilariously OP Manticore as a crutch, and we still have an awful winrate even taking two of those.

As a new player looking in from other factions POV, orks are in a good spot. Boyz are good and I like the buggies. Are you OP as harlies? No, but that's a good thing. You guys are good but not BS, not something I cant say for Harlies or just the sheer amount of options marines have.

 Jidmah wrote:
From having played a few games against against actually powerful lists operated by decent players and having dug into tournament reports and lists a bit, I think the massively reduced ability to gun down hordes does not stem from everyone tailoring against marines, but because people are dropping shooting units in favor of melee units and durable objectives campers.

Even powerful melee units like troupes or blade guard bounce off a 30 strong blob of boyz since morale no longer helps killing them.

Both these things can be true at the same time. I suppose it might be difficult to say for sure if one is more causal than the other.

I wonder if Silent King / Silver tide lists will make people think of taking different kinds of melee units -- 20 warriors and 30 boys sort of pose the same problem in that you wanna wipe both out in 1 go.

Beardedragon wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.

But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.

I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.

A Gorka wouldnt be OP with 3 hits per 6. There are already armies out there that do that already, Blood Angel's, Space Wolves for instance which are far superior in combat that any Ork unit.

DDD's exploding 6s is just to gen an additional attack whilst other armies have it as an additional hit. And Orks dont exactly vomit shots out like some other factions.

Stuff like our relics, where our scorched git bones is +1 to cast to our powers of the Waaagh! others get +1 to cast and deny, reroll a dice/know an extra spell.

So whilst it might feel OP to us, it's pretty much the norm to others. Ragnar with touch of the wild back when it was around was crazy, what about Blood Angels now with like 5-6 attacks a model for Deathcompany with up to AP 3 chainswords when you get it all set up right.

Orks have the potential if GW wouldnt purposefully stunt our units effectiveness compared to Imperial equivalents.

I'd wager the Gorka/Morkas will get some work when our codex comes round.

You are right. it bothered me when i played, i think it was custodies, and they had something that gave him an extra hit on, i think a 6, and not a hit roll. Why must i do a roll when he just gets the hit?

I feel like many things orks has is just so inferior to what others have for seemingly no reason. Bad HQ choices that are all only able to do one thing not several (where as other HQ choices can do many things often), Only one psyker that dont even have a pistol, a warboss that can literally only attack and has nothing else going for him except the charge aura, a big mek with KFF that should not be an HQ choice, the KFF should have been something the regular "mek" can have thus making him useful. Big mek with KFF feels like a damn elite choice. the same goes for the Shokk attack gun version. Other HQ choices often also have interesting aura abilities, which we mostly, again, do not.

No invul saves on anything at all except ghaz and relics and kustom jobs for maybe the battlewagon and you know what? i dont mind not having much invul save, if our characters and units just hit better to make up for it, or something. And grots units that cant use stratagems nor be affected by kulture, and despite this, their price isnt adjusted accordingly. GW just looked at the stats and went: yea this seem right" and forgot about the fact they cant be buffed by stratagems nor kulture.

Boring stratagems that are often situational, very few can be used in most battles no matter what set up you use (when CANT death guard use cloud of flies?). Psyker abilities that are subpar to what others can do. Like "BLADES OF PUTREFACTION" which is just borderline psychotic for a psyker to be able to cast, when what we can do is Ead' banger, Warpath and Roar of Mork. The last one is useless, Ead' Banger is situational by a large margin, and Warpath is decent, but not as good as Blades of Putrefaction. Even Da Jump is situational, yet very good, but compared to what other psykers have, our psychic abilities just arent interesting at all. Da Jump is great tho but it becomes situational when we only ever invest in 1 psyker in our army due to all the other things we need (warbosses of a sort, often a KFF and weirdboy) and with the lack of psychic abilities on other characters, then our psyker just.. cant cast enough psychic abilites. I feel like with the ork setup meta, our weirdboy should be able to cast two abilities by standard and 3 with Warphead + deny the with 3 times with warphead. We have one da jump spot, one smite, and one other utility ability that often ends up being Fist of Gork.

Also CURSE OF THE LEPER which will mostly target chaff infantry that has either 3 or 4 toughness, you are bound to kill quite a few units. We have Da Krunch which only destroys units on 6's. Yes we can potentially do it again, but thats unlikely to happen. Curse of the Leper is just outright better.

It is a completely personal opinion when i say, that Orks dont have very interesting synegy with one another, and our stratagems and psychic abilities are not interesting either. We have a focus on attacking, yet even our attacks dont seem very good. Ork Boyz dont even have -1 AP on our choppas. Also our save is on 6 for boyz, where as i believe Guardsmen have a save of 5. how does that even make sense.

The new Codex cant come fast enough, as there are so many things i feel like need changing.

Also whats up with the big shoota? 3 shots with strength 5 no AP? yea right. I get its assymetrical, and factions shouldnt be mirrored, but i dont feel like Orks are good enough at what they're meant to be good at, namely attacking. And maybe thats because i started out playing as Goff, but from 8th to 9th there was also just a huge wave of nerfs for close range units that just didnt help at all.


I didnt even mean to start a rant yet here i am. I just look at many of my things and catch my self thinking: compared to what others have, what I have, is often utter garbage. It doesnt mean the Orks dont have redeeming factors, they are just far in between these days i feel. The only reason the Goff list is winning tournements is because everyone else brings anti elite armies and .. well Goff isnt exactly elite focused, so they waste +2 damage shots on boyz.

Its fine to rant haha! I do it quite often too, Orks are my love and I want more from them. Im not a Goffs player, i have my own Warboss with his own story so I dont want to be shoehorned into playing Ghaz. Its just that a lot of the things that define our army is from prior editions. Statlines, rules, guns. Orks are living in an diffierent edition and I dont even mean 8th. A 6+ save is pretty much null and void, too some extend so is a 5+ save when you have Marines and Necrons flooding the meta with high AP attacks that they seem to get just for free.

Choppas, shootas, these are weapos that were fine taking on your single wound marine, be it power armour or terminator armour. That isnt the case now, and with cover being a +1 save it gets even more aggregious. We have to rely on Nob leaders to give us some hitting power and they arent that great at it too. Im fed up of Marines having crazy volume of attacks with either rerolls or just AP. What does a Boss nob do with base 3 attacks? What makes Meganobz unique against 3 wound terminators with the same amount of attacks and an invun? A Warboss who cant tangle with a Captain or a Chaplain.

Orks are kind of built around the idea of spam, but as the editions go on we slowly start loosing that horde feel. The rule of 3 stops us from having more of our specialist units, we're more expensive compared to our Imperial counterparts, our strats are either restrictive or costly, the weapons that we have available to us just dont have the punch and our characters arent really force multiplers but we pay quite a lot for them.

It "should" get better with a 9th ed codex, especially if there is someone on the design team that loves them and is willing to give them the rules that best suit them. Stuff like the Warbosses Waaagh! should be an army ability akin to what Orruk Warclans get. Let the Warboss/Speedboss do something else for the boys, let him get stronger by killing other characters/vehicles/monsters like a Megaboss does.

The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.

Just a heads up, the guard Grenadiers strategem is written pretty much identically to the Ork one. We can only chuck 10 grenades as well. If a guard player is using that and having 30 conscripts or a combined 20 man squad throwing grenades at you tell him to read his codex some more. Part of why I like to ask people if I can flip through their codexes. Usually just helps me with familiarizing myself with new armies but also helps you call people out when they forget how something like that works. I may not even read anything when I'm flipping through the codex, but that little action gives me the authority to say something like "hey I just flipped through your codex and I'm pretty sure it didnt work that way."

As far as the grass being greener, try playing guard. It should be a pretty good hint that guard are in a rough spot if I'm looking at picking up orks to have some more enjoyable games. We're basically trending listwise into a worse version of you guys. Heavy reliance on infantry but our infantry are either 10 man squads or conscripts, we'd kill to have platoons back. Most of our tanks are overpriced for what they do so we're reliant on the hilariously OP Manticore as a crutch, and we still have an awful winrate even taking two of those.

As a new player looking in from other factions POV, orks are in a good spot. Boyz are good and I like the buggies. Are you OP as harlies? No, but that's a good thing. You guys are good but not BS, not something I cant say for Harlies or just the sheer amount of options marines have.

All 8th edition Codexes have their own problems right now, Guard, Eldar, T'au, GSC. They all play differently from one another and so do Orks so we cant really lump them all together, when each has their own play style, merits and weaknesses. Guard might have overcosted tanks, but so do Orks with other units. Would you take a Gunwagon without Da Boomer? Would you take a Morkanaut without BS4?

Boys arent really in a good spot. Cool if you play Goffs with Ghaz, but we arent all playing that. Buggies too, with the rise of new weapon profiles gaining more shots/damage and the buggies being pretty overcosted for what they bring to the table, they just get blasted off the board so quick whilst not really having that large of an impact on the field. Having played Orks since 4th ed, you can watch the slow decline of the humble Boy, I dont know who thought 8ppm a model was a good price.

Goffs are strong right now due to str 5 Scarboyz, Ghazghkull and the fact most armies are gearing up to take on Primaris and that implies more elite style armies with melee supremacy units for a lot of these factions: Harlies, Blood Angels, White Scars, Space Wolves and to some extend Novokh Necrons.

A Guard player might look and Ork army and go we need to be like that whilst on the opposite side the Ork player is looking at the Guard army wishing they had the stuff they do. We just arent written for 9th ed like SM and Necrons are, even our PA books didnt really prepare us for it and that puts everyone on the bookfoot regardless. Ork players should be able to look at what other have and want the same if not more. The actions of 1 person winning a tournament doesnt reflect on all of us. I might be great with Evil Sunz but im not using Goffs. His wins arent reflective of what my army can do.

Beardedragon wrote:
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.

Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.

Beardedragon wrote:
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

Again i think its to do with Orks being stuck in a different edition in terms of what the design team whats us to be like. Nobz back in the day were mean, they were bullies, they could go toe to toe with more elite SM like Vanguard Veterans, Terminators, Dreadnoughts but as more and more Primaris got realised the water got more muddy as what an elite should be. Some how an Intercessor is a Troop option, hell the Heavy Intercessor is, but a Nob isnt?! Nobz bully anything smaller than them, if they have their eyes set on something they want ot should be theirs so they should be Obsec. But as more and more codexes get realised there are more ways to grant Obsec auras or to turn off Obsec. And this isnt helped by the huge list of what is core for SM.

Stuff like Skarboyz, Ardboyz should be units that are troops. Ive always hated that we have to pay CP for things that should just be pts and that is starting to come back in the new Codexes. Grots need something to make them feel worth the 5pts they are, give them a rule where they can pinch and objective and move it, weve seen this in Sons of Behemat with the Kraken Eater Mega-gargant, if anyone would be looting stuff its us Orks. GW just needs to be more creative with our rules, stuff that resembles Orky behaviour and lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.

Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.

Not all of us play Deathskulls though Grimskul, and we shouldnt be forced to, so dont go too hard on him. You shouldnt have a go at him for his opinions on what he has experienced. Our answers to are problems shouldnt be "play Goffs / play Deathskulls". There is nothing wrong with wanting all playstyles to be viable, the same with the Clans. Me personally, im not playing Orks until we have a new codex for 9e, for all I know kustom jobs will go poof when the PA becomes invalid with the new Dex, Da Biggest Boss too.

Yeah eldar troops are terrible. All the eldar players i know just want wraiths and vehicles, their troops do jack squat right now.

 deffrekka wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

Again i think its to do with Orks being stuck in a different edition in terms of what the design team whats us to be like. Nobz back in the day were mean, they were bullies, they could go toe to toe with more elite SM like Vanguard Veterans, Terminators, Dreadnoughts but as more and more Primaris got realised the water got more muddy as what an elite should be. Some how an Intercessor is a Troop option, hell the Heavy Intercessor is, but a Nob isnt?! Nobz bully anything smaller than them, if they have their eyes set on something they want ot should be theirs so they should be Obsec. But as more and more codexes get realised there are more ways to grant Obsec auras or to turn off Obsec. And this isnt helped by the huge list of what is core for SM.

Stuff like Skarboyz, Ardboyz should be units that are troops. Ive always hated that we have to pay CP for things that should just be pts and that is starting to come back in the new Codexes. Grots need something to make them feel worth the 5pts they are, give them a rule where they can pinch and objective and move it, weve seen this in Sons of Behemat with the Kraken Eater Mega-gargant, if anyone would be looting stuff its us Orks. GW just needs to be more creative with our rules, stuff that resembles Orky behaviour and lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.

Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.

Not all of us play Deathskulls though Grimskul, and we shouldnt be forced to, so dont go too hard on him. You shouldnt have a go at him for his opinions on what he has experienced. Our answers to are problems shouldnt be "play Goffs / play Deathskulls". There is nothing wrong with wanting all playstyles to be viable, the same with the Clans. Me personally, im not playing Orks until we have a new codex for 9e, for all I know kustom jobs will go poof when the PA becomes invalid with the new Dex, Da Biggest Boss too.

No, but his claim that all Ork infantry as a whole should get Obsec without it being tied to a Klan trait "just because" is unjustified when that isn't available to any army barring Custodes, who honestly need it given their low model count and unit choices. We're also in the tactics section, not proposed rules, so we're looking at stuff from a competitive lens. So ignoring a klan that is basically a direct answer to his complaint is a bit contradictory to the point of this thread. I want all the Klanz to be as viable as the other ones, but given there aren't any rules that force you to paint your army to match the klan, I don't see how playing a klan that best reflects what you want in an army is a bad thing at all.

Overall, it seems like he needs to spend more time looking through the rules and playing games before he makes such widespread statements. It's fine to rant, but only if the stuff you're ranting about makes sense.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death skulls list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.

Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.

i am aware, in fact that was my entire point, thats why i want to get units to prepare for a Deathskulls group instead of Goff.

But i dont have 2000 points if i dont bring Ghazzy so right now (well i do but it would be a mess of an army) only Goff makes sense for me. I said i wanted to make a death guard list by accident, i meant deathskulls. thats basically half the reason i wanna do them. The other half is the reroll to 1 wound hit and damage.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.

Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.

Man i didnt complain about Eldar. I pointed out Eldar because they had a lot of troop choices that gets objective secure where Orks only have 2 units, Grots and Boyz.

I could have pointed out ANY given army i just happen to pick Eldar. I could have gone with Tyranids as well. It wasnt an "oh no how OP" point, ive never even played Eldar in my life. how would i know if they are good or bad. Its a simply to point out how few units we have compared to many others, when it comes to receiving the objective secure ability. nothing more nothing less. It was just to provide context because they had many more choices for objective secure than we did, but, I could have easily said Death guard as well or something else.


And a rant that makes sense to me doesnt have to make sense to you. No one made you warboss to tell me what i can and cant rant about so you can just show yourself out. If i feel like the Orks as whole have too few units that can have Objective secure and you dont, thats not my problem. i will have this opinion.

I think its silly that we need a klan to have burna boyz, tank bustas, stormboyz and Nobz objective secure, i believe they should have this from the get go, because most our "elite infantry" is only as strong as our enemies regular troopers. You have a different opinion? Go for it, but no need to be a jerk like you just were.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death skulls list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.

Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.

i am aware, in fact that was my entire point, thats why i want to get units to prepare for a Deathskulls group instead of Goff.

But i dont have 2000 points if i dont bring Ghazzy so right now only Goff makes sense for me. I said i wanted to make a death guard list by accident, i meant deathskulls. thats basically half the reason i wanna do them. The other half is the reroll to 1 wound hit and damage.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.

Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.

And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.

The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.

All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.

Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)

Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.

Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.

Man i didnt complain about Eldar. I pointed out Eldar because they had a lot of troop choices that gets objective secure where Orks only have 2 units, Grots and Boyz.

I could have pointed out ANY given army i just happen to pick Eldar. It wasnt an "oh no how OP" point, ive never even played Eldar in my life. how would i know if they are good or bad. Its a simple damn point to point out how few units we have compared to others, when it comes to receiving the objective secure ability. nothing more nothing less.

But you choosing Eldar purely on the "number" of troops available reflects the lack of thought put into your complaint. Number of options or variety for troops doesn't mean anything if they're not viable for a style of list in some way. Case in point, you see 4 (really 3) options for Eldar, but realistically that's usually down to 2 because guardians don't fill a role that Eldar need, so they take min squads of rangers or dire avengers and that's it, or a spearhead/outrider detachment to avoid the troop tax altogether.

Similarly, Imperial Guard players pretty much only ever use scion squads and regular infantry squads because conscripts are almost pointless in comparison to the other two. Meaning they're down to 2 choices as well.

Same for Tau, no one bothers taking kroot because they fail as a counter-charge unit and they have no synergy with the Tau army. People usually take min squads of strike teams or skip to spearhead detachment to avoid the tax.

Dark Eldar are in such a weird spot since their whole army paradigm was based on the old detachment system, meaning that most of the time, if troops are taken at all, it's just Wracks with the Prophets of the Flesh to have some staying power for homefield objective grabbers. So again, meaningfully you functionally have 1 or 2 effective troops choices depending if focus on Kabals or Covens.

Necrons only have two troops choices.

Harlequins are one of the top armies right now and literally only have a single troops choice but they're viable because of how versatile that troops choice is.

Sisters of Battle have only one troops choice.

I could go on, and I know there are some exceptions to the rule (i.e. Space Marines, CSM, Daemons but that's a whole different can of worms) but by and large 2 troops choices is more or less the basic standard when it comes to it actually being taken in most armies.

Do I want more variety? Sure. Like I said, Nobz should be troops in our next codex iteration. But all I'm hearing is whinging from someone who hasn't played the army or game enough to understand a lot of the basics of the game while wanting sweeping changes simply because some factions have more Obsec options than us while discounting we have a klan trait that gives us a way to bypass that issue.

What im seeing from you is, that you disregard the fact that many other factions have more than 2 options simply because those other units are sub optimal, because GW screwed up their balancing. They werent designed to be bad, they just became bad. They still have the choices. So Eldar still has more, Death guard still have more, Tyranids also, many factions still have more. Im not asking for competitive games only im pointing out for regular friendly games too.

Other factions in general have many options, where some choices are worse than others. I could say the same thing about grots holding my backline objectives yet here i am doing it regardless.

Just because their choices are bad doesnt mean they dont have choices. The Grots sucks too so should that mean orks only have 1 choice? no.

And if anything, lorewise if anyone should have more Obsec units it should be the orks due to their scavanging nature. We dont have utility from our troops choices that can be kitted to all scenarios, thats why it made sense for it to be the same boyz, different weapons and sheets (burnaboyz, tank bustas etc. are, after all just regular boyz with different weapons) where as space marines and plague marines just kit their units with different weapons to achieve the effect we use other units for.

Yes Nobz should have ObSec, and i too hope they become a troop choice of a sort in the next codex, but i still feel like, Burnaboyz, tankbustas and Kommandos should as well.

But not Stormboyz (i did change my mind on those) given they can fly. And lootas also wouldnt make sense. I actually dont even mind if Kommandos dont get ObSec either due to teleporting in, but Burnaboyz (even though they suck they might not in next iteration) Tank Bustas and Nobz should have it.

Id like to make a last edit here after ive gathered my thoughts:
What bothers me the most actually is that Nobz dont have it. Which i know you agree to as well. I just find it weird lore wise and otherwise that Burnaboyz (terrible or not) and Tankbustas (maybe kommandos? not sure) dont have it, given they are just boyz with a different weapon. I cant help but thinking in a different universe, there is an Ork blueprint out there, like Space marines, where the Boyz are just kitted with flamers or rokkits but is essentially just core infantry with ObSec with one data sheet, with many options.

But im mostly bothered by Nobz not having it honestly.


They should definitly have it.

On the plus side it does feel like time is rushing by at the moment. Maybe we'll luck out and be up for a new codex in the early to mid year 2021. As many people have said, there is indeed a lot that can be done for and with orks, but it's also interesting to see what the various factions are getting along the way.

I still find it curious that harlies seem to be top tier at the moment.

cody.d. wrote:
On the plus side it does feel like time is rushing by at the moment. Maybe we'll luck out and be up for a new codex in the early to mid year 2021. As many people have said, there is indeed a lot that can be done for and with orks, but it's also interesting to see what the various factions are getting along the way.

I still find it curious that harlies seem to be top tier at the moment.

My guess would be march/April for our Codex. I think after dark angels and dark eldar itll be admech/knights. What ever they do to dark eldar will give a good indication as to what we can expect for Orks unless they give us the shaft like usual

 deffrekka wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
On the plus side it does feel like time is rushing by at the moment. Maybe we'll luck out and be up for a new codex in the early to mid year 2021. As many people have said, there is indeed a lot that can be done for and with orks, but it's also interesting to see what the various factions are getting along the way.

I still find it curious that harlies seem to be top tier at the moment.

My guess would be march/April for our Codex. I think after dark angels and dark eldar itll be admech/knights. What ever they do to dark eldar will give a good indication as to what we can expect for Orks unless they give us the shaft like usual

We know there's something in the wings regarding ork models. Deathguard, DE have been announced (though we haven't had the full reveal on what the DE model is yet) so that does lead credence to your guess of March/April. Possible we'll see Sisters in a similar time period as well?

But yeah, seeing how a proper Xenos factions gets the 9th treatment will be a big tell. At least our forgeworld offerings were good to great so perhaps that's a taste of things to come?

Since this is getting out of hand, I would like to point out complaining about other armies is against this thread's rules...

I would suggest to create a thread on this in general, but you really don't want to attract the kind of people that will inevitably show up there.

If you need help with beating certain armies that are giving you trouble, we can do that, so ask away.

Evil sunz boyz, if you take a waagh banner nob, are also completely valid as a troop choice. 30*3 (one in deep strike on certain maps) with double saw nob + waaagh banner makes for a decent army base. Less snipers are being taken these days, and many boyz will surround the waagh banner to prevent it form being assaulted.
Unlike goff boyz, evil sunz boyz can make a lucky t1 charge or force the opponent to stay in hos zone (a lot better than goff boyz).
I still think goff boyz are better overall (DS probably too), but evil sunz is still valid for "green tidish" ork armies IMHO.