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 Boris420 wrote:
Does "Visions in the smoke" work on Deffkoptas? If you had a unit of 5 would all of them benefit or just one?

It works since deffkoptas have the vehicle keyword. It specifies that it works on the whole unit. To make it worth your while, you would have to take rokkit racks to do any meaningful damage, but I feel like compared to a gunwagon with Da Boomer or a kannonwagon with the supakannon that they fall short, mainly because they're significantly easier to kill and they have to get within 24" to do damage, which is the ideal engagement zone for the majority of enemy units.

tulun wrote:
Welp.

Orks, how in gods name do we fight Dark Angels?

Because after a quick dip of their rules, I am confident in saying they are the best army in the game, as of the current set of books that are out in 9th.

They lost a few things like their ability to deepstrike within 6 inches of an enemy, provided they had a Ravenwing unit nearby. But I'd suggest massed Smasha guns against their Terminators (their ridiculous permeant transhuman which is cancerous makes these particularly efficient) Against Greenwing you'll have to rely upon more elite melee as they can shut down engagement range to only models within base to base with a stratagem. The goal should be kill Greenwing in one combat round as they'll be able to shoot in combat. Shut down all his plasma as fast as possible as it can spike in damage with WOtDA. Plasma Inceptors and Hellblasters should be high on your target priority.

Otherwise I'm not sure beyond that. Also if he brings his named chapter master, kill that guy as fast as possible he has a 4++ KFF that only requires the unit to be within it to work, as opposed to our "Wholly within"

And they shall know no fear should be
And they shall know no unfavorable rules

 Boris420 wrote:
Does "Visions in the smoke" work on Deffkoptas? If you had a unit of 5 would all of them benefit or just one?

All of them since they're always acting as a single <VEHICLE> unit, they don't split up after deployment like dreads, buggies or mek gunz.

In most games koptas feel like inferior scapjets though... despite being quite fond of them, I stopped bringing them.

 Jidmah wrote:
In most games koptas feel like inferior scapjets though... despite being quite fond of them, I stopped bringing them.

I have a feeling, the most of the units feel like inferior srapjets recently. After every game I tend to switch something to more scrapjets.... excpet Dragstas...

Scrapjet is really an excellent unit though, I loved it since its release. Dragsta is also very good but bringing more than a squadron could be too much against some armies. Scrapjets can be brought in high numbers while remaining pretty TAC due to their jack-of-trades nature.

Gonna throw my vote into the scrapjet bin as well. For their price they do quite a lot very well. Koptas have a handful of advantages over them. Bigger unit size, fly, speed and a handful more stratagems. But dragstas have better dakka, better melee and tougher normally.

Not sure if i'd call scrapjets a lynchpin unit but they make a solid distraction carnifex with how well they can choke up the field and put out a bit of damage. 9 of them racing up the field would be rather hilarious.

Yeahh.... I said something nice about scrapjets here and today againts the Sisters, they sucked like a hell bloody multimeltas....

True, the switch from plasma to melta being the weapon of choice these days does put a bit of a hamper on many of our squishy, non invul vehicles. Perhaps if ramshackle becomes an armywide rule for our vehicles that could help a touch. Or if the meta swings further away from D2 weapons our nobs may see more play.

That's not even fully true.

Plasma Inceptors are real good. It seems like people have been teching into them over eradicators.

And Multi Melta bikes.

Sisters are just scary. Miracle dice with melta is crazy good.

tulun wrote:
That's not even fully true.

Plasma Inceptors are real good. It seems like people have been teching into them over eradicators.

And Multi Melta bikes.

Sisters are just scary. Miracle dice with melta is crazy good.

I do think the death guard's disgustingly resilient, dreads duty eternal and other similar rules that reduce damage may have an affect on the popularity of plasma. Especially if rules like that become more common with books in this edition. Goodness knows what DE are going to get for an example.

Honestly, as long as Inceptors shred normal marines, I think they are here to stay.

And Dark Angels and Weapons of the Dark Age makes them even better.

Yeah, meltas with miracle dices makes me think about 3 SAGs to outshooot them.

And the Zephyrins - jetpacks infantry was also super usefull.

So I like Liam Hacket list with 3x stormboyz and 3x SAG even more....

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, meltas with miracle dices makes me think about 3 SAGs to outshooot them.

And the Zephyrins - jetpacks infantry was also super usefull.

So I like Liam Hacket list with 3x stormboyz and 3x SAG even more....

Can't you grant your melta toting girls ("retributors" if I am not mistaken) a 4++ with the right build ? That won't go down easy with the few hits you get out of a few smasha gunz and three SAGs. The exorcist tanks will go down in one turn though

 addnid wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, meltas with miracle dices makes me think about 3 SAGs to outshooot them.

And the Zephyrins - jetpacks infantry was also super usefull.

So I like Liam Hacket list with 3x stormboyz and 3x SAG even more....

Can't you grant your melta toting girls ("retributors" if I am not mistaken) a 4++ with the right build ? That won't go down easy with the few hits you get out of a few smasha gunz and three SAGs. The exorcist tanks will go down in one turn though

There was so much X++ and FNP I didn ´ t even bother. Simply, you need enough dakka.

The problem was solved by the combination of mass medium fire - the best was the Rivet Cannon and first of all the super nasty combination of Ramming Speed + Unstopable momentum used on Spiked Ram Vehicle. Let' s say 6 MW + close combat lock and damage by single KBB againts mostly W1 T3 units... scrapjet will be even better, but those was smoking wrecks already....

This worked pretty well and solved the Nun problem. Yeah, well... not alltogether, I 've lost, but 68:84 is not so bad

tulun wrote:
That's not even fully true.

Plasma Inceptors are real good. It seems like people have been teching into them over eradicators.

And Multi Melta bikes.

Sisters are just scary. Miracle dice with melta is crazy good.

I think the people affected much more by the melta changes are the semi-competitive people which just draw the best units from their collections. Nu-Meltas and all the new 3+d3 weapons simply delete vehicles like our buggies, no matter what platform they are on.

It's really just like 7th when armies started getting their decurions right now. In direct comparison, it's completely bonkers how much more efficient DG are compared to orks, despite neither being a particularly weak or powerful army.
In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
That's not even fully true.

Plasma Inceptors are real good. It seems like people have been teching into them over eradicators.

And Multi Melta bikes.

Sisters are just scary. Miracle dice with melta is crazy good.

I think the people affected much more by the melta changes are the semi-competitive people which just draw the best units from their collections. Nu-Meltas and all the new 3+d3 weapons simply delete vehicles like our buggies, no matter what platform they are on.

It's really just like 7th when armies started getting their decurions right now. In direct comparison, it's completely bonkers how much more efficient DG are compared to orks, despite neither being a particularly weak or powerful army.
In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.

Jidmah, in your opinion DG is not an overall more powerful army than orks ? (I agree on the difference between 9th ed codexes with all options being viable as opposed to 8th ed codexes where 2/3 of the options were just no good at all)

 Jidmah wrote:

..... In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.

Yes... except Mekboy Workshop

 addnid wrote:
Jidmah, in your opinion DG is not an overall more powerful army than orks ? (I agree on the difference between 9th ed codexes with all options being viable as opposed to 8th ed codexes where 2/3 of the options were just no good at all)

Nah, they are slow as feth
Orks should easily be able to beat them at the primary game, but you need to put some work into countering their secondaries. Most importantly, you need to stay alive to counter them, so my usual "suicide everything" playstyle would probably doom me against DG.

In addition, their daemon engines now die just as fast as other stuff in their weight category.
They have gotten more powerful in melee though, if you get the jump on them, you win, if they get the charge you're toast.
Be very aware of the Haze of Corruption stratagem that allows any overkill damage to jump to the next model, like flails used to work. It works for all CORE units, so plague marines, terminators, possessed and helbrutes (NOT characters!). Don't get caught off guard when a helbrute or infantry squad suddenly murders half a unit of boyz in a single round of combat.
Another gotcha stratagem worth noting for orks is that plague marines can turn their grenades into pistol 6 that auto-hit units in engagement range. Three surviving plague marines will kill 8-9 boyz with this on average.

Just whatever you do, don't fight deathshroud - they are insane murder machines in combat and have flamer pistols. Shoot till they stop moving and then shoot them some more to make sure that they stay dead.

Note that I haven't played Mortarion yet, as the games at home are limited to 1000 points, and I've only had one 2k TTS game with the new codex so far.

The one thing to look forward to is the disappearance of harlequins from top tables, which is good for our buggies. DG just walk all over them.

TL;DR: While DG are more powerful than orks because they don't need to drag baggage along anymore while orks do, they still are probably in the same tier.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
That's not even fully true.

Plasma Inceptors are real good. It seems like people have been teching into them over eradicators.

And Multi Melta bikes.

Sisters are just scary. Miracle dice with melta is crazy good.

I think the people affected much more by the melta changes are the semi-competitive people which just draw the best units from their collections. Nu-Meltas and all the new 3+d3 weapons simply delete vehicles like our buggies, no matter what platform they are on.

It's really just like 7th when armies started getting their decurions right now. In direct comparison, it's completely bonkers how much more efficient DG are compared to orks, despite neither being a particularly weak or powerful army.
In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.

I agree with Jid. In 9th the armies that are coming out are ramping up in terms of damage output and survivability along with tools to play the missions better and interact with you opponents rules like turning off ObSec and auras. As time goes on the older Codexes will feel this power curve even more because 1 army is playing from an 8th edition mindset and another from a 9th edition. Doesnt mean Orks can't win vs these codexes, its just getting increasingly harder with what we have available to us.

I can't really play as it is right now anyway, so I don't mind waiting for my Orks and Admech to get a codex, but seeing batreps, tournament results and reading the codexes and forums you can see the power divide pretty clearly.

 Jidmah wrote:

In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.

It makes me look forward to our next codex.

Cause boy howdy, Orks are already pretty good. If most of our datasheets were actually useable, it would be an absolute blast.

Brought a Stompa, mek and Big Mek with KFF to a 1k point narrative last week. Unsurprisingly had almost no CP for that list lol.

Most fun I had in a while. Most games ended in turn 4-5 and it was always close one way or another. With the single exception of playing against a nid player and watching a stupid FW tyranid kill it in a single combat on the first turn. It'll never be worth it's points but it's by far the most fun model in the game to play. I just wish it had Str 8 guns instead of Str 7. The gun is bigger then a Russ itself.

Orks are apparently due "soon":
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795837.page

I think between the rumour engine, the teaser that was shown with the Admech, DE, and SoB that we are due at some point in 2021. The real question is when since GW are still struggling to catch up with their new roadmap. People are saying Admech is most likely next, so if they're alternating between Imperials/Xenos, then it's likely either DE or Orks afterwards.

It'll be fun if we do get a codex this year, if only to have new toys to play with, new tactics to try. New memes to meme.

cody.d. wrote:
It'll be fun if we do get a codex this year, if only to have new toys to play with, new tactics to try. New memes to meme.

If the new 9th codices are anything to go by, and assuming they stick to the design paradigm without changing things halfway like they always do, I am looking forward to having our own secondaries since it's getting a little monotonous taking the same safe choices in the core rulebook so far. Also seeing how they incorporate the new method of giving points to buff our characters will be nice as well as having newer strats and relics to take beyond just the Killa Klaw will be nice. Orks are already in a pretty decent position compared to a lot of other armies, so as long as they polish up the stuff that's outdated and currently suboptimal (looking at you lootas/burna boyz) I'll be happy.

Oh, secondaries is a fantastic point. I'd imagine there would be one simply for being in combat, either with characters or a certain number of models. We'll probably get one similar to raise the banners, just cause that seems common. And likely a weirdboy focused one. Goodness knows what.

But yeah, as long as we can feasibly use most if not all units in the codex i'll be pretty content. Dosen't matter if we're top squig as long as we can have a decent chance of winning.

Also wondering what our turn based mechanic is going to be, every army seems to be getting one. PFP, doctrines, the DG plague auras. The AOS version is powerful and all, but a touch boring.

cody.d. wrote:
Oh, secondaries is a fantastic point. I'd imagine there would be one simply for being in combat, either with characters or a certain number of models. We'll probably get one similar to raise the banners, just cause that seems common. And likely a weirdboy focused one. Goodness knows what.

But yeah, as long as we can feasibly use most if not all units in the codex i'll be pretty content. Dosen't matter if we're top squig as long as we can have a decent chance of winning.

Also wondering what our turn based mechanic is going to be, every army seems to be getting one. PFP, doctrines, the DG plague auras. The AOS version is powerful and all, but a touch boring.

Yeah, what our equivalent of doctrines/protocols is going to be interesting, since Orks aren't exactly an ordered bunch. It'll have to do with something WAAAGH! based, just not sure how they'll factor our dakka and our CC ability at the same time, since the AoS one is basically only (understandably) oriented to CC and magic heavy lists. It's very possible that similar to how Necron named dynasties get certain buffs that our Klanz can determine what kind of boosts we get, with Goffs getting more CC boosts while Bad Moonz might be more shooting oriented.

i could see it being a cascading thing that either simply gets meaner every turn or after certain events it gets meaner.
Such as bringing down something big (18+ wounds or just LoW tag) grants a permanent armywide buff.

So something closer to the Power from Pain stuff that DE get? I could see that, with conditional things moving you up the scale/turn if you do stuff like take down a big enemy or if a unit like Ghazzy is in your army.