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 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)

What? According to battlescribe and wahapedia, Smasha Gunz ARE blast?

i could be wrong but.. thats what it says. I know neither is official data and they make mistakes, but rather often they are not wrong.

Smasha gun is on the list for the blast update, just double-checked with the actual book.

The only mek gun that can shoot into combat is the traktor cannon.

yea i figured they were. Also, thanks for the update on the killsaw/powerklaw. It made things a bit clearer.

 Tomsug wrote:
SAG + move + More Dakka = problem solved. But yes, that ' s an issue. But if you put him on the top of the building, you don' t have to move him anymore.

Yeah, I guess this 18 SMG 8th feeling could be caused by the 8th ed terrain common in the area..


If SMG shoots in CC, it means, some dudes came to your deploy and taking your objectives. And it' s blast anyway....

But really - after first couple of games in 9th, I was amazed by SMG on the new tables, because thanks smaller tables, there were nowhere to hide. Worked great. Until we found how 9th ed table should looks like. Than it was less fun.
What is great about SMG is that they can screen your deploy very well. Until you face the opponent with less than 9” deepstrike...

Later, most of the game 50% of SMGs on the table was either unable to fire at all or unable to fire to the right target or without -1 to hit. In later turns, it was even worse...

Thats a lot of CP to maybe do a wound or two. I hate the SAG with a passion. Its the most Orky weapon and it pays for it in both cost and randomness. Id rather have 3 SMGs in every single scenario if im honest. Placing a SAG in a building doesnt suddenly unlock half the board to his shooting, Obscuring will still limit what he can target just as much as a SMG. Yeah the SAG might have character protection but is he really doing much with his random ass gun at BS5? 60" range is wasted in 9th ed, AP5 just the same really. I dont really want to burn 2CP on a unit that wont make much return. Put the SMGs in Strategic Reserve if you are worried that they will get shot and atleast they will get greater movement and lines of fire that way. What happens when someone cracks that (relatively easy) castle and spanks the 1-3 SAGs? Thats 360pts down the drain and 3HQ slots plus whatever was being their screen/bodyguard.

I dont mind missing or fudging a few SMGs attacks, I mind when 1 or 2 SAGs just roll like ass because Orks like randomness. The weapon should be more reliable, atleast D6+3 str or something. You might love them and have great games, that 1 guy at a tournament might have had luck with them, but that doesnt reflect upon everyone. I didnt really like the BM/DS SSAG too if im honest. Maybe people are wizards with BS5 random profile weapons, I aint one of them. Give me a Rokkit Launcha and ill make bank, give me a SAG and ill feel myself sinking deeper into Gork's wrath as I roll below str 6 most of the game or 1-3 shots and dont get a single hit.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)

What? According to battlescribe and wahapedia, Smasha Gunz ARE blast?

i could be wrong but.. thats what it says. I know neither is official data and they make mistakes, but rather often they are not wrong.

Smasha gun is on the list for the blast update, just double-checked with the actual book.

The only mek gun that can shoot into combat is the traktor cannon.

Ah damn ! OK so I guess at least it makes SMG better VS DG and DA, with those large packs of terminators I am seeing in some lists

my main gripe with the SAG isn't the strength its the number of shots. Strength was always minimized by me taking it on a warlord with the trait that gave him +1 to wound, so even if I rolled S3 it was still wounding Knights on 5s and infantry on 4s.

But, if you roll 1 shot...well guess what? you aren't likely to hit, and over 6 game turns you are likely going to average 21 shots which is 8ish hits (with DDD) So you are talking about 1.3 hits a turn add in the random strength and if you get even a .65 wounds per turn you are doing alright, especially when you consider you want to be shooting a SAG at vehicles or Heavy infantry.

D6 shots is bad for everyone, but with BS5 guys, its just untenable unless its dirt cheap.

Deffrekka - honestly, both are random as hell. Shoot 2 turns with 6 SMG and do nothing and than olé! Total annihilation!

I was on some tournament a year ago and first two games they literaly killed 1 terminator. Nothing more. And then in 3rd game they smashed down some tyranid monsters turn one into the ash. I was accused of cheating because of it...

In November I tried to use Grot Mob on them and in first game, there was exactly 0 rolls of 1 to reroll.... bloody grots!

SemperMortis wrote:
my main gripe with the SAG isn't the strength its the number of shots. Strength was always minimized by me taking it on a warlord with the trait that gave him +1 to wound, so even if I rolled S3 it was still wounding Knights on 5s and infantry on 4s.

But, if you roll 1 shot...well guess what? you aren't likely to hit, and over 6 game turns you are likely going to average 21 shots which is 8ish hits (with DDD) So you are talking about 1.3 hits a turn add in the random strength and if you get even a .65 wounds per turn you are doing alright, especially when you consider you want to be shooting a SAG at vehicles or Heavy infantry.

D6 shots is bad for everyone, but with BS5 guys, its just untenable unless its dirt cheap.

They really need 2d6 shots or a flat 6 to make it worthwhile at 120 points.

Honestly, SAG getting d3+3 wouldn't shock me. I doubt it'd get flat 6.

SAG wikl be super randon due its background story imho..-

Yeah, unfortunately its mainly Imperials/SM that get the flat number of shots, they almost always like making it random D6 or D3 shots for a lot of Ork weaponry. So they might make it 2D3 shots or something to lower the variance but still make it random.

Also, my game with my deffwing list was really fun but the mobility issues of a meganobz heavy list was readily apparent when my transports got popped one by one. It more or less cost me the game since I couldn't get to certain objectives on time. I don't know if it was my dice rolls spiting me but I rolled a LOT of 3's to hit, as if Gork was chastising me for not bringing the WAAAGH! Banner. Really makes me wish Meganobz had a base WS2+ so the negatives to hit aren't so bad on our guys considering we have pretty much no reroll auras.

"Orks are supposed to be funny and random is funny so they only get randomness!" -GW

Random can be fun/funny but when its literally just number of shots/strength, its just another potential of doing nothing.
And in the past when we had charts, usually half of the chart was actively bad for us not just "well that didnt work"

For weapons which GW wants to be less random, they usually go for the d6 => 2d3 route.

d3+3 really only appears for damage rolls.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
"Orks are supposed to be funny and random is funny so they only get randomness!" -GW

Random can be fun/funny but when its literally just number of shots/strength, its just another potential of doing nothing.
And in the past when we had charts, usually half of the chart was actively bad for us not just "well that didnt work"

Oh I remember, unfortunately GW almost always costs things in ork armies as if you had rolled high for all the random D6 rolls, rather than factoring the actual average and low rolls you can get. It's why the Gorkanaut initially had an asinine 3D6 shot for their deffstorm megashoota originally in the index that they eventually made a flat 18 shots in the codex once they finally realized Orks have terrible BS.

Yeah that too.
No idea how many times ive had opponents flip out over my rules because of the "potential" power, despite the fact its far far more likely to actively HURT ME rather than do that insane potential.

SAG pre-8th edition anyone? boom, there goes 1/3 my army....

 Vineheart01 wrote:
"Orks are supposed to be funny and random is funny so they only get randomness!" -GW

Random can be fun/funny but when its literally just number of shots/strength, its just another potential of doing nothing.
And in the past when we had charts, usually half of the chart was actively bad for us not just "well that didnt work"

Old Shokk attack gun.

Double 1s, kill yourself and all nearby models.

Double 2s: Enemy gets to pick where the LARGE blast template lands...funny enough, they always chose right in the middle of my guys.

Double 3s: hits the nearest unit to the unit you were firing at. Not terrible but unless firing turn 1 it was a fair chance to hit your own guys.

Double 4s: Small blast, and goes to S6 AP6 *old AP scale so this was bad*.

Double 5s: Teleports your Big mek into base to base contact with the unit you were shooting at. Basically big mek is dead. congrats.

5 and 6: Counts as S10 but only the model directly underneath the hole in the blast template is hit, so basically it kills 1 infantry guy or maybe hits a vehicle.

Double 6s: literally the only good result. Kills everything under the LARGE blast template. If it was a vehicle it takes a penetrating hit.

All told that is 14 possible results with 12 of them ranging from horrible to meh. That leaves 20 other possible results right? since Double 6 is a good result I mean. So what other results were there? Well since you were always shooting this at vehicles or Elite infantry, anything less than S5 was bad, so that is results of a 1 and 2 and 1 and 3 so another 4 results. If you were explicitly aiming for vehicles, anything less than S7 was bad since there was a fair amount of AV13 running around, so that is results of 1 and 4, 1 and 5, 2 and 3, and 2 and 4.

Remember, in prior editions if you couldn't at least add 6 to the S of the weapon and equal there AV you couldn't hurt a vehicle. So against AV13 vehicles there were about 66% bad results

Basically it was random but not in a good way.

 Grimskul wrote:


Also, my game with my deffwing list was really fun but the mobility issues of a meganobz heavy list was readily apparent when my transports got popped one by one. It more or less cost me the game since I couldn't get to certain objectives on time. I don't know if it was my dice rolls spiting me but I rolled a LOT of 3's to hit, as if Gork was chastising me for not bringing the WAAAGH! Banner. Really makes me wish Meganobz had a base WS2+ so the negatives to hit aren't so bad on our guys considering we have pretty much no reroll auras.

Consider the Tin 'eadz subkultur if you play meganobz heavy lists .

 Blackie wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:


Also, my game with my deffwing list was really fun but the mobility issues of a meganobz heavy list was readily apparent when my transports got popped one by one. It more or less cost me the game since I couldn't get to certain objectives on time. I don't know if it was my dice rolls spiting me but I rolled a LOT of 3's to hit, as if Gork was chastising me for not bringing the WAAAGH! Banner. Really makes me wish Meganobz had a base WS2+ so the negatives to hit aren't so bad on our guys considering we have pretty much no reroll auras.

Consider the Tin 'eadz subkultur if you play meganobz heavy lists .

Consider deathwing. Consider the difference. Consider... nevermind...

Imagine if we get something like transhuman for ghazzy's bullyboyz or some such. That would be pretty awesome if i'm honest. Let us make a proper Deffwing.

 Blackie wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:


Also, my game with my deffwing list was really fun but the mobility issues of a meganobz heavy list was readily apparent when my transports got popped one by one. It more or less cost me the game since I couldn't get to certain objectives on time. I don't know if it was my dice rolls spiting me but I rolled a LOT of 3's to hit, as if Gork was chastising me for not bringing the WAAAGH! Banner. Really makes me wish Meganobz had a base WS2+ so the negatives to hit aren't so bad on our guys considering we have pretty much no reroll auras.

Consider the Tin 'eadz subkultur if you play meganobz heavy lists .

I was seriously debating taking it precisely for that reason, but I figured that Obsec would be more relevant given that I had only one squad of grots for my patrol detachment and I didn't want to give up objectives that easily. I'll probably try tin eads next time around and see what level of difference it makes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Imagine if we get something like transhuman for ghazzy's bullyboyz or some such. That would be pretty awesome if i'm honest. Let us make a proper Deffwing.

Honestly, more strats or rules to make our elite units actually feel elite would be nice. I could see Bully Boyz getting some type of offensive buff like their Goffs klan rule procc'ing on 5's and 6's, or +1T and +1A.

Basic Nobz becoming troops and having more updated weapons roster would be good. Deff Dreadz having more base attacks, etc.

The closest thing we have to a top tier melee unit is currently Ghazzy and the Biggest Boss Warboss (and you can't have both!), and it's more due to his wound negation rule than anything else.

Well we're likely going to find out the next few codexes soon correct? DE is 2-3 weeks away and that will be the last of the books they teased at the start of 9th. And in theory the supply issues will be running their course soon. I'm not pinning my hopes and dreams on it being the next codex released. But it could certainly be soon.

cody.d. wrote:
Well we're likely going to find out the next few codexes soon correct? DE is 2-3 weeks away and that will be the last of the books they teased at the start of 9th. And in theory the supply issues will be running their course soon. I'm not pinning my hopes and dreams on it being the next codex released. But it could certainly be soon.

We're definitely slated for something within the next 6 months. I believe the most likely release after DE might be Mechanicus given their preview as well, but let's hope Orks have a proper touch up when we swing around with the codex update.

SoB are probably coming soon as well, considering they had a model previewed at the same time as our Ork boy/nob/elite whatever and admechs skitarii prime. Then obviously they have their mech suits coming also.

I'd wager GW wouldn't put any Xeno update back to back this early in 9th considering they get model(s) as well so after DE it's probably SoB, then admech and then Orks after that. I'm guessing we get our stuff in May.. Remember, we have like 4 rumour engines so I'd wager we actually get 3 or so new kits this time around.

New Kommandos, with snagga klaws so they can chuck it and ignore vertical distance (like reivers)
New Tankbustas (the rokkit backpack and maybe the monowheel is a bomb-squig?)
And then that new choppa/big choppa could work on almost anything orky.

Tin Eadz vs Deathwing isn't a fair comparison though, the former is from an 8th edition codex and the latter is from a 9th edition codex.

Try Tin Eadz against 8th edition Deathwing or Tin Eadz against armies that still use 8th edition books, or even anything but Terminator/Gravis heavy lists.

Maybe with the new codex our meganobz will get +1T and +1W (which is something I expect actually) plus dedicated stratagems, or other tolls, to improve them. Meganobz were so much better than terminators before the SM 9th edition codex, even without the Tin Eadz or Deathskullz bonuses.

I'd love nobz as troops though; we only have two troops and nobz have little purpose as an elite unit anyway, there's too much competition for the role they might provide. But if they are troops they might be worth taking even if meganobz or dreads hit harder and are more efficient points wise.

 Tomsug wrote:
Deffrekka - honestly, both are random as hell. Shoot 2 turns with 6 SMG and do nothing and than olé! Total annihilation!

I was on some tournament a year ago and first two games they literaly killed 1 terminator. Nothing more. And then in 3rd game they smashed down some tyranid monsters turn one into the ash. I was accused of cheating because of it...

In November I tried to use Grot Mob on them and in first game, there was exactly 0 rolls of 1 to reroll.... bloody grots!

They are both random but atleast 1 is quarter the price, hits better, doesnt suffer a heavy penatly when it moves and gets past things like Transhuman. Whiffing 3 times in a turn with SMGs is less likely than 1 time with a SAG. Just because a Big Mek can be untargetable doesnt mean he's great... he really needs atleast BS4 (As with all Mek units in my opinion) with DDD being more standardised for 9th edition and other exploding 6s to hit abilities out there. Then I might use 1 or 2.

In the same argument I was in a tournament in a year ago and my SMGs were pure fire. I one shot LR Tank Commanders, PBC, Exorcist. Im never really let down by SMGs, I dont care if I loose 3 or 4, they are cheap, expendable and still make returns. I dont get that same feeling with a SAG. It may work for you and that other guy, the same isnt true for the rest of us. I really want him to be more reliable, or just worth his 120pt cost. Compare him to other things in his pts cost like T'au Commanders and the like and its quite embarassing. He shouldnt be 120pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah that too.
No idea how many times ive had opponents flip out over my rules because of the "potential" power, despite the fact its far far more likely to actively HURT ME rather than do that insane potential.

SAG pre-8th edition anyone? boom, there goes 1/3 my army....

I always used to roll like double 5 which then teleported the Big Mek into close combat. It happened so much I started kitting him out with atleast a Big Choppa. He would always die in return with his 2 wounds an 4+ save.

I've played with BloodAxes (on Combat Patrol level, so it's somewhat different game) and used Smasha Guns and Infantry.
Da Taktis was to catch opponent with infantry, fall back, shoot with Smashas, and then charge again. It was a solid combo.

Was using BattleScribe just now & all the index options are no longer available to choose from. Anyone else got this problem?

Nah I just updated mine and legends stuff is still appearing. Eventually they may be phased out though, goodness knows when.

 Boris420 wrote:
Was using BattleScribe just now & all the index options are no longer available to choose from. Anyone else got this problem?

Index options have been illegal to take since legends dropped unless you house-ruled them back in, especially since 9th and the FW book dropped.

Those options are just gone, BS finally properly reflects that.

Oh no! But I used the Warboss in Mega Armour in my games (we play friendly games) and I use BattleScribe for his stats! Damn it, that’s a real pain.

Warboss with Mega Armour is a legends option, and should be visible in BS unless you hide legends options.

 Jidmah wrote:
Warboss with Mega Armour is a legends option, and should be visible in BS unless you hide legends options.

Ah yes, you are right. I got index and legends options mixed up for a second there.