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 Bonde wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys.

Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?

Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.

A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++

I'm not sure that build would be worth it. A Boss just with Klaw or saw wouln't do a lot of damge on his own.

Yeah, with all the damage mitigating abilities marines have now, with either transhuman or DG/Dreadnoughts with -1D, the randomness of the Klaw makes it effectively a D1 weapon a lot of the times, while the saw is pretty hit or miss depending on what army you face and lacks the punch needed to kill the tougher stuff like Gravis/terminators. While I would love a tanky warboss, it's kind of redundant if their damage output is subpar and the Warboss lacks the wounds to be a sufficient anvil compared to units like Deathwing Knights or Blightlord Terminators.

Boyz to Snaggaboyz conversions in 3,2,1…..

I'm not sure the simple copy of marine -> primaris marine scheme to orks makes the same result… Our army is way too different.

I agree with Jidmah - snaggaboyz will definitely be the troops.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys.

Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?

Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.

A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++

I tried it few times and makes no sence to me. He' s too dangerous to let him survive. They kill him anyway. His biggest chance to survive is to kill what can kill him first. To do it, he needs to be as strong as possible.

Character protection will keep him alive far better than those toughness boosts do.
Anything that can hurt him at all will kill him regardless, so just make him hit harder and kill'm first.

 Jidmah wrote:


edit: Edited the post to make it more fact-based. For various reasons (you can probably guess some of them) people denying reality currently make me really mad. This has nothing to do with you though, so I should not direct my anger at you.

You and I have different definitions of reality. I guess we'll find out who's living in la-la-land in due time. Like I said, the only prediction you've made that I 100% disagree with is that the limited edition snagga box and the new ork 9th edtion combat patrol are the same box. The rest of the things that you are *angry* about, I was just making the point that WE HAVE NO IDEA how all of this is going to turn out after our army is supposedly getting a complete overhaul. That is my reality.

BDBurrow wrote:
I was just making the point that WE HAVE NO IDEA how all of this is going to turn out after our army is supposedly getting a complete overhaul. That is my reality.

Yep, and that is exactly where you are wrong. We have pretty good idea of what is possible and what is not.

Also, even if Snaggas are 10-15% better than boys... if you want to still use your boys, use them?

I sincerely hope Boyz aren't just trash tier. I imagine they aren't because GW seems to have *generally* gotten better at making most stuff at least viable. Use your models, folks.

If it offends you boys aren't S tier anymore, I dunno what to tell ya. Times change.

Frankly, I think the new kits look great and look forward to building and painting them.

tulun wrote:
Also, even if Snaggas are 10-15% better than boys... if you want to still use your boys, use them?

I sincerely hope Boyz aren't just trash tier. I imagine they aren't because GW seems to have *generally* gotten better at making most stuff at least viable. Use your models, folks.

If it offends you boys aren't S tier anymore, I dunno what to tell ya. Times change.

Frankly, I think the new kits look great and look forward to building and painting them.

I mean, boyz have been a fair bit trash for a long, long time now. Their main strength being that eventually the opponant will have to waste expensive heavy weapons on them and or the ability to swamp the board.

boys havnt been S tier in eons, theyve only been "good" when the meta is opposite to them. Which has happened a few times.

I mean to be fair... they're pretty much the best we got right now.

In this codex, anyway. Goff Tide has had real legs.

While I agree that Beastsnagga Boyz will be troops I doubt they´ll replace normal Boyz. Key word here being normal. Listening to the designer video he tells how they wanted to expand on Ork Kultur and this happened to be Snakebite territory. So we have this broadening fluff which needs to be tied together into a release. Thus some cool new units in the various squig riders and some foot to wrap it into a playable starting kit. Foot is nice since this also creates variation in a slot that has dated models.

This is like they had made an expansion for Speed Freaks with "Slick Boyz" consisting of faster moving Boyz with Mek Nobs added to the Buggy releases. It´s nothing like Primaris who are a fluff tied upgrade to the First Born and critically the most popular range in 40k; Marines. They are to be replaced because they are better - end of story. All hail Cawl. (And conveniently means lots of £)

Hence I wouldn´t expect Boyz to be replaced, but the troop slot expanded for modernization and variation.

I wouldn´t expect Tide to stay around as Drukhari lost Black Cornucopias. In a game of objectives having strats that instantly replaces the scoring units is unwise.

tulun wrote:
I mean to be fair... they're pretty much the best we got right now.

In this codex, anyway. Goff Tide has had real legs.

Skarboyz near Thrakka are somewhat A tier, but here we are talking about boyz upgraded with a stratagem, a culture and a 300 point character which hands out insane buffs to them.
For every other build boyz are not a unit you take because it's a good unit - they haven't been a good unit since 5th.

Mek gun smashas are S tier, boyz aren't even close.

Yeah they said they werent replacing old marines either yet you never see them anymore. Primaris are just better.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah they said they werent replacing old marines either yet you never see them anymore. Primaris are just better.

Depends on the unit. Vanguard Vets shred; Sang guard are menaces.

Tac marines though? Yeah.. no.

Tac marines though? Yeah.. no.

And they have been trash way before primaris came out - in 7th, basically everybody took Scouts instead...

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah they said they werent replacing old marines either yet you never see them anymore. Primaris are just better.

Depends on the unit. Vanguard Vets shred; Sang guard are menaces.

Tac marines though? Yeah.. no.

Neither vanguard marines nor sanguine guard have gotten primaris equivalents (there are no primaris melee jump troops), so that's not really an argument. The only trueborn stuff that ever sees play are things that primaris can't do. It's quite unlikely that a choppa and slugga beasty boy can't do something a choppa and slugga boy can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bossdoc wrote:

Tac marines though? Yeah.. no.

And they have been trash way before primaris came out - in 7th, basically everybody took Scouts instead...

... and for some reason scouts have been moved to elite and thus become completely worthless to any marine army ever

What jidmah said.

Every single marine that has a primaris option uses primaris now. Every. Single. One of them.

They dont even use tac marines as a cheaper troop slot.

Theres no way boyz do anything once beastsnaggas drop. The one and absolute ONLY way is if GW does a dumb and they suck balls

Or different unit size, special strats for regular boyz, klan specific benefits. There’s literally 1000 ways they are still viable.

I guess it depends if you consider like... Aggressors (or something similar) to be Primaris terminators

Because terminators definitely get some play.

But yeah, I would generally agree -- Primaris are intentionally better than old ones.

Boyz and snaggas may have some important rules differences, e.g. perhaps only boyz will be able to greentide, and snaggas will get [insert cool new rule here]? If each has a different and useful battlefield role, then both will continue to be used.

It would seem silly to give them both the same rules, and have them differ only in points and a couple of stats - we'd then just mathhammer which is better value per points and take only that unit. That would be bad for GW's profits as we'd just counts-as the better unit rather than buying more kits - far easier to do with orks than say with primaris marines.

Reckon we'll get any rules previews this week? It really does feel like GW is giving the release schedule a bit of a ramp up, mixing things that in other times they'd possibly spread over several weeks. Will be very interesting to see when sisters get released and thus when we get our slot. IF the starts align it could be about a month out.

On another note. I have doubts that the upcoming points update will have anything of interest for orks. Certainly not overly interested in picking it up with covid still swirling about and limiting play time.

This week no but we will get an early preview of points changes in the chapter approved 2021 and maybe a preview of the ork chariot.

I still believe in Orktober

tulun wrote:
I mean to be fair... they're pretty much the best we got right now.

In this codex, anyway. Goff Tide has had real legs.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
boys havnt been S tier in eons, theyve only been "good" when the meta is opposite to them. Which has happened a few times.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
I mean to be fair... they're pretty much the best we got right now.

In this codex, anyway. Goff Tide has had real legs.

Skarboyz near Thrakka are somewhat A tier, but here we are talking about boyz upgraded with a stratagem, a culture and a 300 point character which hands out insane buffs to them.
For every other build boyz are not a unit you take because it's a good unit - they haven't been a good unit since 5th.

Mek gun smashas are S tier, boyz aren't even close.

pretty much Jidmahs explanation. Boyz aren't even grade "A" by themselves, they require the aforementioned buffs to get close to "A" grade, and the supreme irony is they would be C grade at best if the meta wasn't so dependent on 2dmg weapon designs and a plethora of -AP weapons.

I ran a Ghaz led Goff list in a tournament awhile back and all 3 games I played I had opponents firing anti-tank weapons into my boyz because they had nothing else to target. I had opponents visibly annoyed that they had to use Plasma and melta on my boyz who were still able to shrug off some of them because of a KFF big mek nearby. if instead of running into these meta lists I ran into more TAC lists I would have probably lost, but atm most armies do not take enough anti-infantry weapons to handle 120 Boyz.

My impression from what they talked about in the preview is that there will be a more developed system of kulturs along the line of what we got in PA.

So, maybe you get to select an army wide kultur in addition to the clan, like speed freeks, beast snaggas, or tin 'eads, which will give you some general bonus, plus extra bonuses for the units with the kultur key word. Some clans interact better with certain kulturs, but you're free to mix and match as you please. This way it remains flexible, but you are rewarded by taking certain combinations.

Also, it has been clearly stated by Cruddace multiple times in various interviews that they intentionally go through which units have not seen much use in the current edition and "shake it up" in order to shift power to these at the expense of popular choices when updating the codexes. So I fully expect that all walkers will get a healthy buff in the new one, and that clans like Snakebites and Blood Axes also will get their chance to shine.

Agree with most everyone's thoughts on this. Boyz are not only in a terrible state competitively, but they are also overcosted. I don't know that I would even put them at S-tier for goffs with all the buffs. This is why I would expect them to be good in the new codex. Looking at other similarly costed models, you can predict how GW is going to balance them. It's typically not just a stat line modification. Look at the new Skitarii Rangers. 8ppm with a mediocre stat line, but a myriad of buffs that you can give them via upgrades, stratagems, auras, FW, etc. to make them extremely dangerous.

So, maybe you get to select an army wide kultur in addition to the clan, like speed freeks, beast snaggas, or tin 'eads, which will give you some general bonus, plus extra bonuses for the units with the kultur key word. Some clans interact better with certain kulturs, but you're free to mix and match as you please. This way it remains flexible, but you are rewarded by taking certain combinations.

and that clans like Snakebites and Blood Axes also will get their chance to shine.

This is spot on. It's no doubt snagga boyz will be more deadly as snakebites, and it's very possible that snakebites will be the new meta kultur. Boyz should have their place in other kulturs.

I have mixed feelings about gretchin. There seems to be an effort from GW of late to make really cool grot models, but the rules for Zodgrod were so underwhelming that I have serious doubts. My fear is that this will be where GW completely whiffs and grots will still be garbage tier, but I'm holding out hope! Who doesn't love grots? If we get grot snipers I will throw a grot themed party and you're all invited.

I expect some of our S-tier units and abilities to come down a bit. Mek gunz are an obvious choice. Max squad size down to 3 seems like a likely route. Burna bommer and ere we go are the other obvious choices.

I am officially torn, going to be going to another tournament next week and I am unsure what to bring. Do I go with competitive goff list featuring Ghaz and 120-150 boyz or do I go for fluffy/fun but not very competitive Evil sunz army hosting 30 bikes, 3 scrapjetz and a pair of burna bommerz?

I'm leaning towards just flooding the board with ork bodies goff style and seeing what happens but i'm not sold one way or the other.

Let's break down these two ideas.

1) A unit is only good because of the meta.

Yes. A unit's worth is in part what meta you are slotting into. This is obvious. Boys are better in an elite meta, but are worse in a horde meta.

This is true of every unit in 40k, albeit it's not the only determinant of what makes a unit good.

2) They suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies.

... You mean what most armies have to do? Raw datasheets rarely make the unit. It's a combo of faction, stratagems, character support (etc).

These are both terrible arguments saying boys are "bad". In they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.

I just hope boyz get a little bit of a buff in stats. You can get a skitari ranger for the same points, and those gits are pretty great. Maybe boyz can fight in two ranks?

tulun wrote:
Let's break down these two ideas.

1) A unit is only good because of the meta.

Yes. A unit's worth is in part what meta you are slotting into. This is obvious. Boys are better in an elite meta, but are worse in a horde meta.

This is true of every unit in 40k, albeit it's not the only determinant of what makes a unit good.

2) They suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies.

... You mean what most armies have to do? Raw datasheets rarely make the unit. It's a combo of faction, stratagems, character support (etc).

These are both terrible arguments saying boys are "bad". In they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.

Not entirely. Ork boyz are only good because nobody builds a competitive list to play against them. By almost every metric a Space Marine intercessor is better than a Boy, but rarely if ever do SM players take hordes of intercessors. Why? Because the meta is built to kill 3+ models with multi-wounds. There was a great example of this point that came up in a tournament awhile back. Basically an Ork list steam rolled through the competition until he ran into a sisters of battle list whose Anti-SM weapon of choice was.....a heavy bolter....and boy oh boy did he bring a lot of heavy bolters. That game the ork player won by the smallest margin of all his games, and it was wicked close. Keep in mind, a Heavy bolter is still not a great weapon for killing orkz, but its a lot better than say a plasma gun or a melta gun.

So an intercessor is still a good unit and is better than a boy, but because of the competitive meta, its markedly worse than a Boy.

Onto point 2. "they suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies". Again, even buffed fully a goff boy is still worse than an intercessor, but yet again because of the meta those boyz work better than intercessors. I do agree with the premise, i mean hell, look at 8th and the Loota bomb, Lootas sucked in 8th, but when you took 25 of them, mobbed them up, gave them DDD on 5s and shoot twice while being protected by a grot shield....yeah that was awesome.

SemperMortis wrote:
I am officially torn, going to be going to another tournament next week and I am unsure what to bring. Do I go with competitive goff list featuring Ghaz and 120-150 boyz or do I go for fluffy/fun but not very competitive Evil sunz army hosting 30 bikes, 3 scrapjetz and a pair of burna bommerz?

I'm leaning towards just flooding the board with ork bodies goff style and seeing what happens but i'm not sold one way or the other.

Play for fun that way your not disappointed and not tired of moving 100+ troops for 6 games.