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gungo wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I am officially torn, going to be going to another tournament next week and I am unsure what to bring. Do I go with competitive goff list featuring Ghaz and 120-150 boyz or do I go for fluffy/fun but not very competitive Evil sunz army hosting 30 bikes, 3 scrapjetz and a pair of burna bommerz?

I'm leaning towards just flooding the board with ork bodies goff style and seeing what happens but i'm not sold one way or the other.

Play for fun that way your not disappointed and not tired of moving 100+ troops for 6 games.

I'm going to be playing against a good friend of mine who just recently won a GT so i want to beat him just to bring him down a peg

The meta might shift a little more towards horde after this Ad Mech release. 120 rangers is 960 pts.

At the moment due to the core keyword things are moving towards an infantry heavy meta. Or at least that's the vibe i'm getting. At the very least it feels like most lists should have a decent amount of chaff clearing. It will be interesting to see if the skitarri horde does become meta, and if sisters will have several viable horde lists too. To say nothing of orks in the future.

cody.d. wrote:
At the moment due to the core keyword things are moving towards an infantry heavy meta. Or at least that's the vibe i'm getting. At the very least it feels like most lists should have a decent amount of chaff clearing. It will be interesting to see if the skitarri horde does become meta, and if sisters will have several viable horde lists too. To say nothing of orks in the future.

Keeping in mind that it is entirely dependent upon what is in our new codex, as it stands currently, if Skitarri and sisters become "hordesque" armies I feel it would negatively impact orkz since it would force more of the current meta to bring anti-horde weapons in greater numbers than they presently do.

The White scars list that just won the Maryland GT is a great example of what I am talking about. his list has basically NOTHING that can deal with hordes except bladeguard in CC....which is where orkz want you to be with them.

Get rid of the 6 Multi-Melta attack bikes he brought and exchange those for anti-infantry weapons and suddenly that list becomes a lot scarier for orkz.

tulun wrote:
2) They suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies.

... You mean what most armies have to do? Raw datasheets rarely make the unit. It's a combo of faction, stratagems, character support (etc).

These are both terrible arguments saying boys are "bad". If they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.

Couldn´t agree more. I´ll just keep harping on the fact that players stare themselves blind into one factor of the game; how well unit x kills stuff.

If my 30 Boyz caused the opponent to spend x time taking them them down while they held an objective, tarpitted the opponents assault unit or bodyblocked them it´s a win! If this netted me VP it´s a win and they are "good".

tulun wrote:
In they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.

I disagree with that. First, not everyone plays the single specific klan that makes boyz win games in tournaments. I don't play goffs for example, I'm mostly Deathskulls, so I don't really care if they contribute to win tournaments, that's not my army.

Second, tournament metas aren't exactly the same metas that most casual players experience everyday. In my meta, which is a friendly to semi-competitive one, lists are basically TAC oriented, not designed to be tailored against SM or heavy elites, which is what we've basically seen in tournaments so far in this edition instead.

Thing is, if I play against a friend and we both know what armies we are going to play (not the lists though) the greentide is mediocre at most. If meta is heavy on hordes, then it's even pure garbage as players expect to clash against them pretty often and their lists reflect that.

Buggies and Mek gunz, light vehicles that count as single models once deployed, are really good because they do well in any environment but they're also valuable units for most of the klans, they aren't stricly dependant on a single klan and a single list archetype.

Is it too much to hope for more buffing models for Orks? The AoS Warchanter has been around for years now and the Goff Rocker from WD was pretty cool, they could easily do a Codex entry for it and sell another new clampack character to a lot of people. Or a coven of weirdboyz with minders doing zog knows wot on the table, taking the AoS Gloomapite Gitz... Whatever they're called l... Gobbo mini-character unit as an inspiration.

Orks have all those quirky specialists that are *literally* created in-universe to get odd jobs done or goad other Orks into doing stuff and it feels so underutilized. Then again elite slots are pretty stuffed as is.

 Scactha wrote:
Hence I wouldn´t expect Boyz to be replaced, but the troop slot expanded for modernization and variation.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Theres no way boyz do anything once beastsnaggas drop. The one and absolute ONLY way is if GW does a dumb and they suck balls

snaggaz are my last hope to ever play trukkboyz again... maybe i am dillusional BUT if they were like 10ppm s5, 3attacks base AND choppas finally get their -1ap (or somethin similiar to blade artists) they would be alternative to boyz and NOT replace them. you could have more elite style snaggaz in few numbers (max 20 per mob) or you can go full horde with normal boyz. Everybody Happy Now.
but considering the trackrecord of GW regardings orks.... i wouldnt get my hopes up. the lead designer of the codex already stated, he thinks orks are doing very well in competitive 40k, not realizing that it only works with hordes and hordes of boyz (which many players, me included, dont want to field ) and in conjunction with the before mentioned anti-primaris meta


i talked yesterday about my mates bloodbribes and how they can do 50+ attacks, hitting on 2's with rerollable wounds (2cp), ranging from -1 up to -4ap in one swing and then could fight again with another use of 2cp...
thats on a 10 model unit for not even 150points

how the hell can 8 points choppa boyz with s4 and no ap whatsoever compete in that enviroment?

RedNoak wrote:

 Scactha wrote:
Hence I wouldn´t expect Boyz to be replaced, but the troop slot expanded for modernization and variation.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Theres no way boyz do anything once beastsnaggas drop. The one and absolute ONLY way is if GW does a dumb and they suck balls

i talked yesterday about my mates bloodbribes and how they can do 50+ attacks, hitting on 2's with rerollable wounds (2cp), ranging from -1 up to -4ap in one swing and then could fight again with another use of 2cp...
thats on a 10 model unit for not even 150points

how the hell can 8 points choppa boyz with s4 and no ap whatsoever compete in that enviroment?

I agree that our 8 point boyz need some love, but no one wants drukhari levels of OPness. Ad Mech seems toned down (only the shooty ironstriders seem really OP) compared drukhari which is good, I think we want similar levels for orks.

So we need another metric than bloodbrides (not bloodbriBes lol -very good if the pun was intended, love it-) IMHO. Regular wyches perhaps ?

well the only difference between them and regular wyches is +1 to hit and 6's do additional 2ap. even regular wyches do 53attacks, rerolling wounds with -1 up to -3 ap and they cost even less and can be fielded en masse in an excellent transport (big and small) : )

orks would still lack the 4++ in combat, flexability of 5model squads and all the weapon options on regular boyz (the snagga kit seems to be only slugga, chappas and a mandatory powerklaw thingy for the nob) AND they still have to ride around in trukks (less mobile, less durable, less firepower and less CC potential than a raider)

...my point beeing, no i dont want the ultra OP unit... just something that can compete. regular boyz in a trukk dont do squat :/ hence the only option i have now is either MANz or Nobs, which in turn are way to costly for what they do and arent troops... so i am still stuck with either a vanguard or gretchin for a batallion

 Binabik15 wrote:
Is it too much to hope for more buffing models for Orks? The AoS Warchanter has been around for years now and the Goff Rocker from WD was pretty cool, they could easily do a Codex entry for it and sell another new clampack character to a lot of people. Or a coven of weirdboyz with minders doing zog knows wot on the table, taking the AoS Gloomapite Gitz... Whatever they're called l... Gobbo mini-character unit as an inspiration.

Orks have all those quirky specialists that are *literally* created in-universe to get odd jobs done or goad other Orks into doing stuff and it feels so underutilized. Then again elite slots are pretty stuffed as is.

i think they will go down that lieutenant route... the snagga nob riding a squig was called a "unit" that could lead mobs of squigriders to "down a titan" :rolleyes:
idk... they said they only revealed half of the new releases (which would mean 4-5 "new" units) and i doubt there are more new mob kits coming... but i can totally see meks buffing vehicles, doks treating boyz and runtherds either buffing grots (meh) or debuffing enemy units. not to mention we already have KFF meks and waaghbanna nobs doing similar things (rewording their rules to give their buff to one unit in x inches in the command phase instead of an aura wouldnt be very hard)

 Scactha wrote:

tulun wrote:
2) They suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies.

... You mean what most armies have to do? Raw datasheets rarely make the unit. It's a combo of faction, stratagems, character support (etc).

These are both terrible arguments saying boys are "bad". If they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.

Couldn´t agree more. I´ll just keep harping on the fact that players stare themselves blind into one factor of the game; how well unit x kills stuff.

If my 30 Boyz caused the opponent to spend x time taking them them down while they held an objective, tarpitted the opponents assault unit or bodyblocked them it´s a win! If this netted me VP it´s a win and they are "good".

I won tournaments in 7th with Warbikers and battlewagons. Were those good units in 7th? I won tournaments in 8th with horde Kommandos (before rule of 3) were Kommandos good?

I'm well aware that a unit can be good even if it isn't good at killing stuff. The problem is that boyz AREN'T good at the things you think they are good at, they are only "good" at those things because yet again the meta is in favor of their cheap points cost and stat line. When you show up to a tournament and the vast majority of the lists have more units designed to kill tanks/heavy infantry than they do to kill light and medium infantry you know the meta is skewed. I'll again point out that recent Maryland GT White Scars winning list, the most "anti-infantry" unit he had were 2 units of blade guard and 2 units of vanguard veterans. Both units are only good at removing infantry in close combat and both are better against HEAVY and medium infantry rather than horde. On the flipside of that, if this guy wasn't so worried about facing off against SM and brought actual anti-horde weapons in 50% the capacity that he brought anti-elite weapons he would instead take a unit of Aggressors instead of MM attack bikes, going from 6 shots of melta and 12 bolter shots a turn against a mob of orkz to 48 S4 shots a turn (15pts more).

Against most anti-infantry weapons a unit of intercessors is markedly more durable that a similar amount of boyz. 10 intercessors is 20 T4 3+ wounds. To kill them you need 120 S4 hits. 10 intercessors is 200pts. To kill 240pts of Orkz (30 boyz) you need 72 S4 hits or if you want a point for point comparison, to kill 200pts of Boyz (25 boyz) you need 60 S4 shots, or another way to view that, literally 1/2 as durable as an intercessor. That math holds true for all weapons at -1 AP and only skews in favor of the orkz at AP-2+ So as far as holding an objective, yeah boyz are better, but that is because as I mentioned in the last paragraph, people are bringing AP weapons with 2-3 dmg rather than a bunch of S4 attacks with no AP which you really don't need vs orkz. Yet again, the meta skews the results so that Ork boyz are actually punching above their weight class thanks to the lack of weapons fire directed at them.

 Blackie wrote:

Thing is, if I play against a friend and we both know what armies we are going to play (not the lists though) the greentide is mediocre at most. If meta is heavy on hordes, then it's even pure garbage as players expect to clash against them pretty often and their lists reflect that.

So... the meta you play in affects how well a unit does?

That was like literally my argument my dude.

 Scactha wrote:

tulun wrote:
2) They suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies.

... You mean what most armies have to do? Raw datasheets rarely make the unit. It's a combo of faction, stratagems, character support (etc).

These are both terrible arguments saying boys are "bad". If they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.

Couldn´t agree more. I´ll just keep harping on the fact that players stare themselves blind into one factor of the game; how well unit x kills stuff.

If my 30 Boyz caused the opponent to spend x time taking them them down while they held an objective, tarpitted the opponents assault unit or bodyblocked them it´s a win! If this netted me VP it´s a win and they are "good".

Tarpits are units that are incredibly hard to shift, allowing them to make taking control of a section of the board excessively difficult for your opponent.

I wouldn't define boyz as a tarpit unit. Unfortunately, boyz don't do this very well as they just aren't durable enough. Boyz currently fall under the positional board control category which is why hordes of 120+ aren't unpopular. Their goal is just to block your opponent with bodies and gain a big enough lead in rounds 1-3 that your opponent can't make it up. My issue with this is it doesn't feel *orky*. A horde of ork boyz should be lethal and terrifying, not just a bump in the road.

I think somethin that could help boyz is a slight points bump and put em to t5 (da gitz shrug off bolter shots in the lore), or give them the ability to fight in multiple ranks or somethin, sad day when you go to krump an elite melee unit and only get like 5 boyz in contact.

This will be interesting!

Oh no a change to scramblers. Well maybe its a good thing i dont know. I just always take scramblers and usually never have issues finishing it.

On the other hand Thin their ranks gets changed to "Take no prisoners" or something, and as long as its not a vehicle, monster or character, then you count the wounds statistics rather than models, making it actually feasable against things like custodies or terminator armies.

At least that one looks interesting.

Beardedragon wrote:
Oh no a change to scramblers. Well maybe its a good thing i dont know. I just always take scramblers and usually never have issues finishing it.

On the other hand Thin their ranks gets changed to "Take no prisoners" or something, and as long as its not a vehicle, monster or character, then you count the wounds statistics rather than models, making it actually feasable against things like custodies or terminator armies.

At least that one looks interesting.

Sounds like it will be an action that you have to perform in each table quarter instead of deployment zones, similar to recon sweep from the incursion reconnaissance mission. Scramblers was easily countered by an opponent that knows how to screen. This is a welcome change. I'm glad to see they are cutting back on the all or nothing theme, and also finally giving armies without a 9th ed codex an opportunity to compete on secondaries.

That article specifically says ork buggy lists will be better at denying some of these secondaries

yeah but they dont say how... maybe its the same as no prisoners? so counting the wounds instead of flat VP?

they also said the stompa would be one of our best units when our codex was coming out.
Take those claims with half a grain of salt.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
they also said the stompa would be one of our best units when our codex was coming out.
Take those claims with half a grain of salt.

*Half a planet full of salt

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
they also said the stompa would be one of our best units when our codex was coming out.
Take those claims with half a grain of salt.

*Half a planet full of salt

A temple Gargant full of salt

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
they also said the stompa would be one of our best units when our codex was coming out.
Take those claims with half a grain of salt.

*Half a planet full of salt

A temple Gargant full of salt

A blackstone fortress full of salt

RedNoak wrote:
yeah but they dont say how... maybe its the same as no prisoners? so counting the wounds instead of flat VP?

Counting wounds would make sense. They might also make squadrons give up VP only when fully destroyed or have it max out at 10/12.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BDBurrow wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Oh no a change to scramblers. Well maybe its a good thing i dont know. I just always take scramblers and usually never have issues finishing it.

On the other hand Thin their ranks gets changed to "Take no prisoners" or something, and as long as its not a vehicle, monster or character, then you count the wounds statistics rather than models, making it actually feasable against things like custodies or terminator armies.

At least that one looks interesting.

Sounds like it will be an action that you have to perform in each table quarter instead of deployment zones, similar to recon sweep from the incursion reconnaissance mission. Scramblers was easily countered by an opponent that knows how to screen. This is a welcome change. I'm glad to see they are cutting back on the all or nothing theme, and also finally giving armies without a 9th ed codex an opportunity to compete on secondaries.

100% agree. When playing my DG, it just feels stupid to have an automatic 9 VP from spread the sickness against armies who struggle to find even two good objectives.

RedNoak wrote:

snaggaz are my last hope to ever play trukkboyz again... maybe i am dillusional BUT if they were like 10ppm s5, 3attacks base AND choppas finally get their -1ap (or somethin similiar to blade artists) they would be alternative to boyz and NOT replace them. you could have more elite style snaggaz in few numbers (max 20 per mob) or you can go full horde with normal boyz. Everybody Happy Now.

BINGO.

Fortunately, dev interview appeared to support this, with him saying they were trying to support different playstyles. For me, this was a that maybe he was referring in part to mechanized orks.

Boyz are very square peg-round hole for that role. Snagga boyz would be perfect if they were as described above. It's an obvious hole and would open up so many avenues. I'm very anxious just to hear the magic word "troops."

quite frankly, i'd be surprised if the beastsnaggas are 10pts unless they got 2w somehow. I still believe theyre gonna be T5 (and nobs getting bumped up to that too) but the wound difference is the main reason to be a Nob, possibly the armor too.

W/o that 2nd wound they'd be easier to kill than a Necron Warrior (13pts) by a large margin and nowhere near as shooty as a Ranger (8ppm) while having Primaris level melee (~18ppm)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
quite frankly, i'd be surprised if the beastsnaggas are 10pts unless they got 2w somehow. I still believe theyre gonna be T5 (and nobs getting bumped up to that too) but the wound difference is the main reason to be a Nob, possibly the armor too.

W/o that 2nd wound they'd be easier to kill than a Necron Warrior (13pts) by a large margin and nowhere near as shooty as a Ranger (8ppm) while having Primaris level melee (~18ppm)

i dont care how easy they are to kill... i care HOW MUCH THEY CAN KILL
if i want durable stuff i just get more regular boyz... we all had that already a couple of editions ago with ardboyz. they're just dont worth the pointjump. same with stormboyz.
we NEED heavy hitting gitz, s5 ap1 with lotz of attacks that can fit in a cheap trukk and threaten almost anything. i dont wanna pay for the extra wound because thats what nobz are for

7ppm regular ork
10ppm snagga
14ppm nob
20ppm meganob

and i said that for over a decade now, orks should have a default 6++ or 6+++ instead of their t-shirt save

RedNoak wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
quite frankly, i'd be surprised if the beastsnaggas are 10pts unless they got 2w somehow. I still believe theyre gonna be T5 (and nobs getting bumped up to that too) but the wound difference is the main reason to be a Nob, possibly the armor too.

W/o that 2nd wound they'd be easier to kill than a Necron Warrior (13pts) by a large margin and nowhere near as shooty as a Ranger (8ppm) while having Primaris level melee (~18ppm)

i dont care how easy they are to kill... i care HOW MUCH THEY CAN KILL
if i want durable stuff i just get more regular boyz... we all had that already a couple of editions ago with ardboyz. they're just dont worth the pointjump. same with stormboyz.
we NEED heavy hitting gitz, s5 ap1 with lotz of attacks that can fit in a cheap trukk and threaten almost anything. i dont wanna pay for the extra wound because thats what nobz are for

7ppm regular ork
10ppm snagga
14ppm nob
20ppm meganob

and i said that for over a decade now, orks should have a default 6++ or 6+++ instead of their t-shirt save

They should all really have a 5+, they're modeled with studded armor which confered a 5+ in gorkamorka.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
quite frankly, i'd be surprised if the beastsnaggas are 10pts unless they got 2w somehow. I still believe theyre gonna be T5 (and nobs getting bumped up to that too) but the wound difference is the main reason to be a Nob, possibly the armor too.

W/o that 2nd wound they'd be easier to kill than a Necron Warrior (13pts) by a large margin and nowhere near as shooty as a Ranger (8ppm) while having Primaris level melee (~18ppm)

Wow, has it occurred to you that they think boyz are worth 8 and Gretchin are worth 5? Why would you be surprised, as though +1S and -1 AP and +1 attack would be worth 2 ppm when they expect 2 CP for +1 to your armor save and they're increasing points all across this Ed?

Simple, they want snaggas to sell.
We already have boyz/grots, they dont care. GW has shown this behavior several times.