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 Nevelon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

SIA is a Deathwatch datasheet specific ability. It was never going to appear in the general Astartes Codex because quite literally nothing in the Codex has it. It'll be handled in the Deathwatch Supplement.

Not to pick on you, but didn't Sternguard Veterans have it or was it a stratagem?

Haven't used them in some time so might be missing something--other than my book not being handy.

Sternguard had it before DW was a thing.

*Laughs in 3rd edition Deathwatch rules*

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Worth it though. I've been spending CP to use MWBD twice a turn anyway, so this is a nice change.

DanielFM wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Interesting, assuming the Cheif Apoth still gives FNP the same way, wont be able to bring both him and a CM

Care to elaborate why? I don't get it.
CM is an upgrade. Chief Apoth is also an upgrade. FNP was (maybe will) a warlord trait. I can't see the interaction making both incompatible.

My mistake, its one of each not one total per army

 Sasori wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Worth it though. I've been spending CP to use MWBD twice a turn anyway, so this is a nice change.

So you'd rather spend 2 cp over 40 points?

 nintura wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Worth it though. I've been spending CP to use MWBD twice a turn anyway, so this is a nice change.

So you'd rather spend 2 cp over 40 points?

Is a phaeron 40 points more than an overlord?

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Why the Feth are they using two different systems for the same thing in the first two codexes!

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Why the Feth are they using two different systems for the same thing in the first two codexes!

We don't really know what a phaeron is, it's obviously not an overlord +1 wound, attack and 2 MWB with 40 more points, or it would just cost 40 points. Or you'd just take the phaeron.

You have to pay two cp to upgrade an overlord into a phaeron. You cannot pay points. You cannot buy a phaeron for your army.

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Why the Feth are they using two different systems for the same thing in the first two codexes!

We don't really know what a phaeron is, it's obviously not an overlord +1 wound, attack and 2 MWB with 40 more points, or it would just cost 40 points. Or you'd just take the phaeron.

We do though, it's a title in the current codex. But in this case, now every dynasty has he ability to give an overlord dynastic authority: . It's a strat that gives an overlord the phaeron keyword and a second cast of MWBD.

The only other things likely to have the phaeron keyword are a couple special characters with their own special rules. Likely just Imhotekh and The Silent King.

---
But from a practical perspective, the necron codex 'team' and the SM codex team had different ideas how to handle 'promotions'. Team necron stuck with CP, Team SM switched to points.
It'll be interesting to see if Team Death Guard even bothers, but already we're seeing the 9th edition design direction fork.

Voss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Why the Feth are they using two different systems for the same thing in the first two codexes!

We don't really know what a phaeron is, it's obviously not an overlord +1 wound, attack and 2 MWB with 40 more points, or it would just cost 40 points. Or you'd just take the phaeron.

We do though, it's a title in the current codex. But in this case, now every dynasty has he ability to give an overlord dynastic authority: . It's a strat that gives an overlord the phaeron keyword and a second cast of MWBD.

The only other things likely to have the phaeron keyword are a couple special characters with their own special rules. Likely just Imhotekh and The Silent King.

---
But from a practical perspective, the necron codex 'team' and the SM codex team had different ideas how to handle 'promotions'. Team necron stuck with CP, Team SM switched to points.
It'll be interesting to see if Team Death Guard even bothers, but already we're seeing the 9th edition design direction fork.

This then goes back to "why isn't there a generic unit for phaeron" which is a head scratcher.

Dudeface wrote:

Voss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Why the Feth are they using two different systems for the same thing in the first two codexes!

We don't really know what a phaeron is, it's obviously not an overlord +1 wound, attack and 2 MWB with 40 more points, or it would just cost 40 points. Or you'd just take the phaeron.

We do though, it's a title in the current codex. But in this case, now every dynasty has he ability to give an overlord dynastic authority: . It's a strat that gives an overlord the phaeron keyword and a second cast of MWBD.

The only other things likely to have the phaeron keyword are a couple special characters with their own special rules. Likely just Imhotekh and The Silent King.

---
But from a practical perspective, the necron codex 'team' and the SM codex team had different ideas how to handle 'promotions'. Team necron stuck with CP, Team SM switched to points.
It'll be interesting to see if Team Death Guard even bothers, but already we're seeing the 9th edition design direction fork.

This then goes back to "why isn't there a generic unit for phaeron" which is a head scratcher.

There is, it's called an Overlord. A Phaeron is just the Overlord of an entire Dynasty.

 nintura wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Worth it though. I've been spending CP to use MWBD twice a turn anyway, so this is a nice change.

So you'd rather spend 2 cp over 40 points?

More than likely, yes.

 nintura wrote:
You have to pay two cp to upgrade an overlord into a phaeron. You cannot pay points. You cannot buy a phaeron for your army.

I imagine at least a couple of special characters (e.g., Imhotekh the Stormlord) will have the PHAERON keyword,

 Platuan4th wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Voss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Not for Crons. It's TWO cp....

Why the Feth are they using two different systems for the same thing in the first two codexes!

We don't really know what a phaeron is, it's obviously not an overlord +1 wound, attack and 2 MWB with 40 more points, or it would just cost 40 points. Or you'd just take the phaeron.

We do though, it's a title in the current codex. But in this case, now every dynasty has he ability to give an overlord dynastic authority: . It's a strat that gives an overlord the phaeron keyword and a second cast of MWBD.

The only other things likely to have the phaeron keyword are a couple special characters with their own special rules. Likely just Imhotekh and The Silent King.

---
But from a practical perspective, the necron codex 'team' and the SM codex team had different ideas how to handle 'promotions'. Team necron stuck with CP, Team SM switched to points.
It'll be interesting to see if Team Death Guard even bothers, but already we're seeing the 9th edition design direction fork.

This then goes back to "why isn't there a generic unit for phaeron" which is a head scratcher.

There is, it's called an Overlord. A Phaeron is just the Overlord of an entire Dynasty.

Likely that the Chapter Master entry will include stat changes as well like it did 5th onwards to 7th.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm really glad that the character upgrades are handled via points instead of CP. I've been saying for years that this is how it should work. Now they only need to make the relics buyable with points too.

Anything is possible at this point.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Why the Feth are they using two different systems for the same thing in the first two codexes!

Welcome to the Games Workshop HHHobby.

I think its a weird difference for sure.

Although to me it seems like phaeron is [b]just[b/] a second MWBD cast and a keyword.

Its effectively the same as the marine ones, but it doesn't open up options for specific relic/WTs. I think thats the reason they left it at CP. Plus, there is only one such promotion compared to the array of marine ones.

However the cryptek wargear I loooove. The more options the merrier- maybe they are steering towards reentry of rules for non existent wargear/models. If that is the case I will be surprised and exceptionally excited

you also didn't hear people complaining about most of the CP unit upgrades. just the marine ones so... *shrugs* maybe GW decided that it was only an issue for marines. it's an odd decison to be true but..

I mean, orks got a massive pile of CP for unit buff type things in their PA and by and large they're pretty good. (A few stinkers but a few autotakes as well)

But if those were changed to points upgrades? You know I'm not sure which one i'd prefer.

It will really annoy me of they don't do this for Eldar.

Ancient exarch +pts
Master warlock +pts
Master bonesinger +pts
Ancient farseer +pts

GW continue to disappoint on Eldar characters

 Hellebore wrote:
It will really annoy me of they don't do this for Eldar.

Ancient exarch +pts
Master warlock +pts
Master bonesinger +pts
Ancient farseer +pts

GW continue to disappoint on Eldar characters

Are there non-ancient Eldar of any significant standing?

I mean, if it cuts down on unneeded datasheets, letting you just go. Yup that's a captain. You can pay a handful of points to make him watcher of the fleet or whatever. Rather than going, well his a captain, here's a captain in this armour, his a captain in thiiiis armour. and then we have the same with liutenants, librarians, chaplains. But wait there's primaries versions!

And remember when GW got pissy with people for having more than 3 demon princes in an army?

cody.d. wrote:
But if those were changed to points upgrades? You know I'm not sure which one i'd prefer.

It'd be easier to balance. One price fits all (ie. 1 CP regardless of the upgrade's rules) is pretty piss poor from a balance perspective.

cody.d. wrote:
Rather than going, well his a captain, here's a captain in this armour, his a captain in thiiiis armour. and then we have the same with liutenants, librarians, chaplains. But wait there's primaries versions!

The problem is that is exactly what this new book has. The unit entries get so specific there's even one called "Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle".

It'd be easier to just have "Captain" and "Primaris Captain", and tell you what giving them Terminator Armour/a Jump Pack/a bike/Gravis Armour/Phobos Armour/etc. does, but we can't have that because then we might include options that don't have a specific miniature, and then the evil 3rd parties will come to steal our profits!!!

 Hellebore wrote:
It will really annoy me of they don't do this for Eldar.

Ancient exarch +pts
Master warlock +pts
Master bonesinger +pts
Ancient farseer +pts

GW continue to disappoint on Eldar characters

Nah, I'd rather warlocks be unit upgrades for guardian units again (except conclave), and make Exarchs separate characters.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
But if those were changed to points upgrades? You know I'm not sure which one i'd prefer.

It'd be easier to balance. One price fits all (ie. 1 CP regardless of the upgrade's rules) is pretty piss poor from a balance perspective.

cody.d. wrote:
Rather than going, well his a captain, here's a captain in this armour, his a captain in thiiiis armour. and then we have the same with liutenants, librarians, chaplains. But wait there's primaries versions!

The problem is that is exactly what this new book has. The unit entries get so specific there's even one called "Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle".

It'd be easier to just have "Captain" and "Primaris Captain", and tell you what giving them Terminator Armour/a Jump Pack/a bike/Gravis Armour/Phobos Armour/etc. does, but we can't have that because then we might include options that don't have a specific miniature, and then the evil 3rd parties will come to steal our profits!!!

Honestly it feels terrible from a layout point of view as much as anything. I miss when you would have a page in the codex. That was a captain, you had a bullet point with an upgrade and it's points costs. Done. Now you have 2 pages with 6 different captains who are largely identical except maybe one bullet point worthy change.

What was wrong with the days of, artificer armor = +2 sv Gravis = +1 T Jump pack = 12mv plus fly.

But oddly this seems to be an issue almost exclusively to imperial space marines. Xenos so far have not had this issue, same with chaos right?

Probably because we mostly have 20-40 models and space marines have over 100

cody.d. wrote:
But oddly this seems to be an issue almost exclusively to imperial space marines. Xenos so far have not had this issue, same with chaos right?

Be careful what you wish for. We're lucky that CSMs aren't limited to just Chaos Lords w/Plasma Pistols & Thunder Hammers -or- Twin Lightning Claws + Jump Pack, as they're the only general power armour Chaos Lord minis available at time of posting.

If they start to get as specific with Chaos as they do with Marines, then expect "Chaos Jump Pack Lord with Lightning Claws" as an entry in the book's contents.

I´m liking the sound of paying points for certain character upgrades. Hopefully the trend continues and Orks can field a proper warboss again in time, one who doesn't have less attacks than some random schmuck SM captain. Makes for better balancing too over CP, maybe next edition GW will have improved further and they cut all these "free" faction/cp rules upgrades and we get back to a proper point system for everything.

 Castozor wrote:
I´m liking the sound of paying points for certain character upgrades. Hopefully the trend continues and Orks can field a proper warboss again in time, one who doesn't have less attacks than some random schmuck SM captain. Makes for better balancing too over CP, maybe next edition GW will have improved further and they cut all these "free" faction/cp rules upgrades and we get back to a proper point system for everything.

IMHO what Orks need is a "leuitenant" type figure to take the current ork warboss statline, and then a new warboss (with a gorgous new model) as the actual warboss that has the "bigger boss" rules already applied to it.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
It will really annoy me of they don't do this for Eldar.

Ancient exarch +pts
Master warlock +pts
Master bonesinger +pts
Ancient farseer +pts

GW continue to disappoint on Eldar characters

Nah, I'd rather warlocks be unit upgrades for guardian units again (except conclave), and make Exarchs separate characters.

These can both be true at the same time.

Except I'm not a fan of warlock upgrades because warlocks are not common any more than exarchs are.

And it allows GW to deliberately underpower units because you're going to have to take a warlock to get them to a moderate level.

When they could just leave them.out, make units good and have the characters be cool powerful units.

Marines aren't the only army that can field mighty heroes and warriors, but sometimes it really feels like that's what GW is trying to do...