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2020/10/02 19:45:45
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Necronmaniac05 wrote: The Monolith is underwhelming. T8 S8 and 24 wounds but absolutely no inv. save and only living metal to boost its survivability. If you are going to spend over 300 points on a unit I'd take the void dragon. Screenable, has an inv. save and can only lose 3 wounds per phase anyway.
Sorry, did you just call 24 wounds combined with Living Metal underwhelming...?!
Bear in mind that to do 24 wounds in one go, you'd have to put a LOT of firepower into it... quite likely much of it only wounding it on 6's. In 99% of games it's going to be able to take full advantage of Living Metal turn after turn, so in effect it's more like it's approaching 30 wounds. That's unprecedented - and on the offchance your opponent does kill it outright, the rest of your force gets off scot-free.
That's pretty good going if you ask me.
I will say that from what I've seen so far, the Void Dragon looks like much more of a dangerous, direct threat.
We will see i guess. My view is it is hard to screen/hide and in the age of 3 eradicators hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's and doing 4+2d6 damage each at -3/-4 AP, while they may not kill it outright they are going to quickly drop its effectiveness such that it will struggle to make a mark. We will see however. Knights, wraithknights and stormsurges all fill the same space and all have an inv (and more wounds in the case of knights).
I’m not sure anyone will take it anyway, it’s a LoW now.
(Yes I’m going to whine about this in every post now)
2020/10/02 19:47:13
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Necronmaniac05 wrote: The Monolith is underwhelming. T8 S8 and 24 wounds but absolutely no inv. save and only living metal to boost its survivability. If you are going to spend over 300 points on a unit I'd take the void dragon. Screenable, has an inv. save and can only lose 3 wounds per phase anyway.
Sorry, did you just call 24 wounds combined with Living Metal underwhelming...?!
Bear in mind that to do 24 wounds in one go, you'd have to put a LOT of firepower into it... quite likely much of it only wounding it on 6's. In 99% of games it's going to be able to take full advantage of Living Metal turn after turn, so in effect it's more like it's approaching 30 wounds. That's unprecedented - and on the offchance your opponent does kill it outright, the rest of your force gets off scot-free.
That's pretty good going if you ask me.
I will say that from what I've seen so far, the Void Dragon looks like much more of a dangerous, direct threat.
We will see i guess. My view is it is hard to screen/hide and in the age of 3 eradicators hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's and doing 4+2d6 damage each at -3/-4 AP, while they may not kill it outright they are going to quickly drop its effectiveness such that it will struggle to make a mark. We will see however. Knights, wraithknights and stormsurges all fill the same space and all have an inv (and more wounds in the case of knights).
The heavy rifles won't be in melta range in turn 1 so will never get the doctrines kicking in normally, likewise to be in melta range they have to move so hit on 4s.
Its not much better but does help slightly.
2020/10/02 19:49:35
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Necronmaniac05 wrote: The Monolith is underwhelming. T8 S8 and 24 wounds but absolutely no inv. save and only living metal to boost its survivability. If you are going to spend over 300 points on a unit I'd take the void dragon. Screenable, has an inv. save and can only lose 3 wounds per phase anyway.
Sorry, did you just call 24 wounds combined with Living Metal underwhelming...?!
Bear in mind that to do 24 wounds in one go, you'd have to put a LOT of firepower into it... quite likely much of it only wounding it on 6's. In 99% of games it's going to be able to take full advantage of Living Metal turn after turn, so in effect it's more like it's approaching 30 wounds. That's unprecedented - and on the offchance your opponent does kill it outright, the rest of your force gets off scot-free.
That's pretty good going if you ask me.
I will say that from what I've seen so far, the Void Dragon looks like much more of a dangerous, direct threat.
It's knight stats without inv saves. And any army worth anything aims to one shot knight.
Since any half decent army one shots knight witq ris they can one shot 2 monoliths.
Oh and no hiding out of los either.
And sorry but what weapon you fire at it that wounds on 6? It's t8. Not t14. You don't shoot bolter at it. Are you supposed to plan opponent be stupid enough to shoot bolters at monolith and lascannons etc at necron warriors? Sorry. I don't like to make plans that depend opponent being such a level of idiocy.
A knight without an invuln is dead. Simple as.
Any army worth ANYTHING can shoot this thing off in a turn. Weren't we discussing eradicators a page back?
The void dragon looks like a far far better choice to complement 9th missions- fulfilling a similar role to the yncarne in some of the winning CWE lists). Mobile, highly volatile, relatively resistant push threat that will kill what it touches. Complemented with necrodermis, I'm happy saying that this thing is tougher to take out than a monolith. Really.
And my goodness if it really gets a CP strat to ignore Inv??? Absolute monster.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: The Monolith is underwhelming. T8 S8 and 24 wounds but absolutely no inv. save and only living metal to boost its survivability. If you are going to spend over 300 points on a unit I'd take the void dragon. Screenable, has an inv. save and can only lose 3 wounds per phase anyway.
Sorry, did you just call 24 wounds combined with Living Metal underwhelming...?!
Bear in mind that to do 24 wounds in one go, you'd have to put a LOT of firepower into it... quite likely much of it only wounding it on 6's. In 99% of games it's going to be able to take full advantage of Living Metal turn after turn, so in effect it's more like it's approaching 30 wounds. That's unprecedented - and on the offchance your opponent does kill it outright, the rest of your force gets off scot-free.
That's pretty good going if you ask me.
I will say that from what I've seen so far, the Void Dragon looks like much more of a dangerous, direct threat.
We will see i guess. My view is it is hard to screen/hide and in the age of 3 eradicators hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's and doing 4+2d6 damage each at -3/-4 AP, while they may not kill it outright they are going to quickly drop its effectiveness such that it will struggle to make a mark. We will see however. Knights, wraithknights and stormsurges all fill the same space and all have an inv (and more wounds in the case of knights).
Wish Stormsurges came with an invulnerable save, they can buy one but they dont have by default.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: The Monolith is underwhelming. T8 S8 and 24 wounds but absolutely no inv. save and only living metal to boost its survivability. If you are going to spend over 300 points on a unit I'd take the void dragon. Screenable, has an inv. save and can only lose 3 wounds per phase anyway.
Sorry, did you just call 24 wounds combined with Living Metal underwhelming...?!
Bear in mind that to do 24 wounds in one go, you'd have to put a LOT of firepower into it... quite likely much of it only wounding it on 6's. In 99% of games it's going to be able to take full advantage of Living Metal turn after turn, so in effect it's more like it's approaching 30 wounds. That's unprecedented - and on the offchance your opponent does kill it outright, the rest of your force gets off scot-free.
That's pretty good going if you ask me.
I will say that from what I've seen so far, the Void Dragon looks like much more of a dangerous, direct threat.
We will see i guess. My view is it is hard to screen/hide and in the age of 3 eradicators hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's and doing 4+2d6 damage each at -3/-4 AP, while they may not kill it outright they are going to quickly drop its effectiveness such that it will struggle to make a mark. We will see however. Knights, wraithknights and stormsurges all fill the same space and all have an inv (and more wounds in the case of knights).
The heavy rifles won't be in melta range in turn 1 so will never get the doctrines kicking in normally, likewise to be in melta range they have to move so hit on 4s.
Its not much better but does help slightly.
Unbuffed at 12 to 24 inches the 4 heavy boys plus 2 multimeltas do 21 wounds to a T8 unit, without any buffs or chapter bonuses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/02 19:52:02
2020/10/02 19:53:17
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Cynista wrote: The necron nerfs just keep coming boys! They were so overpowered before, thanks GW very cool
What are you even talking about? The core mechanic of the whole army has been revamped to actually, yknow, work
And units themselves have been heavily nerfed or their points are incredibly high
Which units have been nerfed?
Wraiths have been dunked on and gaining RP doesn't fix it. The models that everyone has at least 6 of. QS has been nerfed (and yes, it has, because of the sheer damage potential of everything these days), Reanimation Protocols are straight up bad for anything with more than 1 wound, so that's a poor argument as noted already. There is really heavy amounts of restrictions built into the entire book. Can't do X if Y etc etc. Void Dragon 350 points!
Don't get me wrong, there's so much content in the codex that you'll be able to put something decent together but a lot of it is dead on arrival IMO
Wraiths went down 1 on their invuln and got fall back and charge back in return, that's not really a nerf. QS is different, not sure it's a nerf for everything, it'll be better against overcharges plasma etc.
RP is worse for multi wound models, but having the chance to use it might be better overall, hard to say. 350 points for a mortal wound spouting combat monster you can't target and still can only lose 3 wounds per phase isn't unfair exactly.
It really doesn't seem that bad, the only worse part so far seems to be the relics.
Fall Back and charge is bad on a unit that is already fast and able to pick its targets. You won't use it, ever.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/10/02 19:54:03
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
The void dragon looks like a far far better choice to complement 9th missions- fulfilling a similar role to the yncarne in some of the winning CWE lists). Mobile, highly volatile, relatively resistant push threat that will kill what it touches. Complemented with necrodermis, I'm happy saying that this thing is tougher to take out than a monolith. Really.
And my goodness if it really gets a CP strat to ignore Inv??? Absolute monster.
Yeah the Void Dragon is easily a better investment if you are going to spend over 300pts on a single unit. 4+ inv, can't lose more than 3 wounds per phase and is screenable. Can heal, has a snack anti vehicle C'Tan power and has a strat for ignoring inv saves. It's a no brainer really.
2020/10/02 19:54:19
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Couldn't a Chronomancer put an invuln onto the Monolith? The Chronometron only checks if its a Necron unit, if I remember right.
I'm a fan of the Monolith's new profile but aside from costing CP to field the bigger problem is it not benefitting from Dynastic buffs. The DIY Dynasty's bolter drill would be nice with all those flux arcs.
2020/10/02 19:54:34
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Living metal on the monolith doesn't do much. You'll maybe get 4 wounds out of it, 5 if you use the undying legion protocol (and it's been damaged already by the turn you assigned for that before the game). Maybe 5 (or 6) wounds if you go second and the enemy obliges to scratch it up 1st turn but not destroy it by the end of the game.
High points (hopefully a lot less with the gauss arcs) plus lord of war slot (and therefor CP) is a huge load to haul. The opportunity cost just seems way to high to start with.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/10/02 19:56:07
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Cynista wrote: The necron nerfs just keep coming boys! They were so overpowered before, thanks GW very cool
What are you even talking about? The core mechanic of the whole army has been revamped to actually, yknow, work
And units themselves have been heavily nerfed or their points are incredibly high
Which units have been nerfed?
Wraiths have been dunked on and gaining RP doesn't fix it. The models that everyone has at least 6 of. QS has been nerfed (and yes, it has, because of the sheer damage potential of everything these days), Reanimation Protocols are straight up bad for anything with more than 1 wound, so that's a poor argument as noted already. There is really heavy amounts of restrictions built into the entire book. Can't do X if Y etc etc. Void Dragon 350 points!
Don't get me wrong, there's so much content in the codex that you'll be able to put something decent together but a lot of it is dead on arrival IMO
Wraiths went down 1 on their invuln and got fall back and charge back in return, that's not really a nerf. QS is different, not sure it's a nerf for everything, it'll be better against overcharges plasma etc.
RP is worse for multi wound models, but having the chance to use it might be better overall, hard to say. 350 points for a mortal wound spouting combat monster you can't target and still can only lose 3 wounds per phase isn't unfair exactly.
It really doesn't seem that bad, the only worse part so far seems to be the relics.
Fall Back and charge is bad on a unit that is already fast and able to pick its targets. You won't use it, ever.
With the way the fight phase works, you want to fall back in your turn and charge, so you can guarentee to go first again.
Cynista wrote: The necron nerfs just keep coming boys! They were so overpowered before, thanks GW very cool
What are you even talking about? The core mechanic of the whole army has been revamped to actually, yknow, work
And units themselves have been heavily nerfed or their points are incredibly high
Which units have been nerfed?
Wraiths have been dunked on and gaining RP doesn't fix it. The models that everyone has at least 6 of. QS has been nerfed (and yes, it has, because of the sheer damage potential of everything these days), Reanimation Protocols are straight up bad for anything with more than 1 wound, so that's a poor argument as noted already. There is really heavy amounts of restrictions built into the entire book. Can't do X if Y etc etc. Void Dragon 350 points!
Don't get me wrong, there's so much content in the codex that you'll be able to put something decent together but a lot of it is dead on arrival IMO
Wraiths went down 1 on their invuln and got fall back and charge back in return, that's not really a nerf. QS is different, not sure it's a nerf for everything, it'll be better against overcharges plasma etc.
RP is worse for multi wound models, but having the chance to use it might be better overall, hard to say. 350 points for a mortal wound spouting combat monster you can't target and still can only lose 3 wounds per phase isn't unfair exactly.
It really doesn't seem that bad, the only worse part so far seems to be the relics.
Fall Back and charge is bad on a unit that is already fast and able to pick its targets. You won't use it, ever.
With the way the fight phase works, you want to fall back in your turn and charge, so you can guarentee to go first again.
Prolonged combats aren't a thing. When the Wraiths charge, it'll be against something you want dead or totally crippled. That thing will just fall back if it didn't die. If the Wraiths were charged, it was gonna be by a unit mostly guaranteed to kill them. Those last two could fall back and charge but chances are it was against a unit they aren't going have a chance damaging to begin with.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/10/02 20:03:06
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Reasonable marine nerfs in no more double tapping aggressors, AP-2 hammers and 5++ impulsor dome. Heavy melta rifles are crazy though, up to 20 damage per model! Makes you wonder why the imperial guard even bother with vanquisher cannons.
2020/10/02 20:04:26
Subject: Re:Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Prolonged combat is most certainly still a thing. A unit falling back can't do anything now in most cases, and the days of a castle just blasting the unit off the board is not really the case anymore.
Reasonable marine nerfs in no more double tapping aggressors, AP-2 hammers and 5++ impulsor dome. Heavy melta rifles are crazy though, up to 20 damage per model! Makes you wonder why the imperial guard even bother with vanquisher cannons.
Btw, some quick napkin math
6 eradicators w heavy melta and vulkan nearby
gets to fire twice at a single target
Regarding the Void Dragon, which units are people considering for a screen? The initial thought was Scarabs for the cost, but I don't believe swarms can screen for Characters in 9th.
Wraiths, then, for the relative speed and durability?
2020/10/02 20:17:32
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Tiberius501 wrote: For those who’ve seen the Monolith, now that it’s a LoW, will it cost 3CP to add to your list?
Yes. Monoliths are probably Dead on arrival due to this.
No special rule or anything to mitigate this? :C
Maaaan... I was so looking forward to getting the new one but that really bums me out.
So exactly the same rules as every other LOW that isn't a primarch or a knight in a pure knights detachment. And 170 points less than a Baneblade, but with fly, regenerating wounds, deep strike, etc. And 43% the price of a Fellblade. Everyone else has to pay 3CP to bring their LOWs. I think it's a stupid rule, but until it's changed I don't see why Necrons should get an exemption.
So, anyway, impulsor shield domes are now a 5++? Nice. You want a marine transport with a 4++? Get an Achilles. Real tanks have treads.
2020/10/02 20:18:19
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Drakmord wrote: Regarding the Void Dragon, which units are people considering for a screen? The initial thought was Scarabs for the cost, but I don't believe swarms can screen for Characters in 9th.
Wraiths, then, for the relative speed and durability?
They screen, as long as you have 3 models.
2020/10/02 20:21:23
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Reasonable marine nerfs in no more double tapping aggressors, AP-2 hammers and 5++ impulsor dome. Heavy melta rifles are crazy though, up to 20 damage per model! Makes you wonder why the imperial guard even bother with vanquisher cannons.
Btw, some quick napkin math
6 eradicators w heavy melta and vulkan nearby
gets to fire twice at a single target
Tiberius501 wrote: For those who’ve seen the Monolith, now that it’s a LoW, will it cost 3CP to add to your list?
Yes. Monoliths are probably Dead on arrival due to this.
No special rule or anything to mitigate this? :C
Maaaan... I was so looking forward to getting the new one but that really bums me out.
So exactly the same rules as every other LOW that isn't a primarch or a knight in a pure knights detachment. And 170 points less than a Baneblade, but with fly, regenerating wounds, deep strike, etc. And 43% the price of a Fellblade. Everyone else has to pay 3CP to bring their LOWs. I think it's a stupid rule, but until it's changed I don't see why Necrons should get an exemption.
So, anyway, impulsor shield domes are now a 5++? Nice. You want a marine transport with a 4++? Get an Achilles. Real tanks have treads.
I was hoping that the new codexes would bring a rule to let you have LoW’s within your codex without suffering all the penalties.
2020/10/02 20:23:45
Subject: Re:Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Sasori wrote: Prolonged combat is most certainly still a thing. A unit falling back can't do anything now in most cases, and the days of a castle just blasting the unit off the board is not really the case anymore.
Um that unit doesn't need to do anything. It just needs to open up the Wraiths for shooting...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/10/02 20:30:35
Subject: Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Reasonable marine nerfs in no more double tapping aggressors, AP-2 hammers and 5++ impulsor dome. Heavy melta rifles are crazy though, up to 20 damage per model! Makes you wonder why the imperial guard even bother with vanquisher cannons.
[spoiler]Btw, some quick napkin math
6 eradicators w heavy melta and vulkan nearby
gets to fire twice at a single target
Wounding on 3+
8 wounds
Rerolling wounds
10 wounds
No armour save
5+ invul
7 wounds
D6+2 damage, min 3, avg 5.5, max 8
At all 1's
That's 21 damage on a 24w knight
On average, that's 38-39 wounds
[/spoiler]
That's enough to one shot a Acastus Knight on avarage dice.
Both of which are 850+ point models.
Yeah. I would imagine it gets significantly worse for non-salamanders without +1 to wound and the rerolling wounds and hits buff from Vulkan.
But if a superheavy meta somehow emerges again, Salamanders basically have shadowsword squads now
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/02 20:33:04
Forever ever more
2020/10/02 20:30:56
Subject: Re:Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
Sasori wrote: Prolonged combat is most certainly still a thing. A unit falling back can't do anything now in most cases, and the days of a castle just blasting the unit off the board is not really the case anymore.
Um that unit doesn't need to do anything. It just needs to open up the Wraiths for shooting...
Did you read the last part of what I wrote there? Terrain and units not castling up makes just blasting a unit of wraiths off the board like the old days when a unit falls back isn't really a thing anymore. Units are all over the board trying claim secondaries and primaries.
Tiberius501 wrote: For those who’ve seen the Monolith, now that it’s a LoW, will it cost 3CP to add to your list?
Yes. Monoliths are probably Dead on arrival due to this.
No special rule or anything to mitigate this? :C
Maaaan... I was so looking forward to getting the new one but that really bums me out.
So exactly the same rules as every other LOW that isn't a primarch or a knight in a pure knights detachment. And 170 points less than a Baneblade, but with fly, regenerating wounds, deep strike, etc. And 43% the price of a Fellblade. Everyone else has to pay 3CP to bring their LOWs. I think it's a stupid rule, but until it's changed I don't see why Necrons should get an exemption.
So, anyway, impulsor shield domes are now a 5++? Nice. You want a marine transport with a 4++? Get an Achilles. Real tanks have treads.
I was hoping that the new codexes would bring a rule to let you have LoW’s within your codex without suffering all the penalties.
Yeah, me too. Looks like it isn't happening. One would think that the existence of units like eradicators would be enough of a nerf to LOWs by itself.
2020/10/02 20:39:04
Subject: Re:Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
