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Yeah, a number of factors involved, but I'd say they're likely to start landing with people early-to-middle of next week.

 Overread wrote:
They only went on sale yesterday so chances are people won't see anything for a week or so.

They said shipped in two days, mine shipped today so maybe Saturday or Monday I would guess.

 insaniak wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. Let's see them get that past the ACCC.

So long as they've not just made it a blanket 'No refunds' and only specified that you can't return it if you change your mind, it will be fine.

I'm not sure about that. A pop-up when you actually click buy, without being reflected on the product page or in the return policy itself, seems unlikely to be sufficient. I don't think a pop-up can override the legal document that is the return policy itself.

Cronch wrote:

 Overread wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
7 page and mostly complaining how bad GW is doing this? Lol. And here I was thinking this release wouldn't generate that much discussion about it.

Honestly its somewhat surprising how negative some people are being about it. Then again I think some are simply looking for any angle to dislike on GW. I'd have though the real "hate" would have come after the boxes were delivered if they were proven to be rather poor in content (eg the Underworld turning out to be all dice sets and not a single model).

We all have seen how normalizing mtx and blind boxes ruined video gaming, and even if it's not the exact same, the last thing I want is normalization of lootboxes in tabletop gaming even further. There will always be whales that will happily ruin it for everyone else.

It's a grab bag of physical product, not really different than miscast bags that other companies offer all the time. It is not remotely a gaming loot box of pixels for crying out loud. Equating the two requires some industrial grade lubricant to get the slope that slippery. "Whales"... lol.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. Let's see them get that past the ACCC.

So long as they've not just made it a blanket 'No refunds' and only specified that you can't return it if you change your mind, it will be fine.

I'm not sure about that. A pop-up when you actually click buy, without being reflected on the product page or in the return policy itself, seems unlikely to be sufficient. I don't think a pop-up can override the legal document that is the return policy itself.

It's absolutely sufficient. What HBMC was (presumably) referring to was Australian retail laws prohibiting stores from displaying messages with a blanket 'No refunds' message, as customers are legally entitled to a refund in certain situations. Stores are not legally required to give you a refund just because you decided you don't want the thing you purchased, and if they allow it under their normal returns policy they are perfectly within their rights to specify that certain items are exempt from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:

We all have seen how normalizing mtx and blind boxes ruined video gaming, and even if it's not the exact same, the last thing I want is normalization of lootboxes in tabletop gaming even further. There will always be whales that will happily ruin it for everyone else.

This is not even remotely the same thing as video game loot boxes. Nor is it a new thing... Miniature companies have been doing mystery bundles since well before video gaming moved onto the internet.

Lootboxes are intended to push the 'pay to win' setup. This is not that. It's just a box of random product at less than retail price.

 Overread wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
7 page and mostly complaining how bad GW is doing this? Lol. And here I was thinking this release wouldn't generate that much discussion about it.

Honestly its somewhat surprising how negative some people are being about it. Then again I think some are simply looking for any angle to dislike on GW. I'd have though the real "hate" would have come after the boxes were delivered if they were proven to be rather poor in content (eg the Underworld turning out to be all dice sets and not a single model).

For me it was such an indifferent release that when I read it I just shrugged off. Not my cup of tea but I know some people love these sort of things.

As I don't see how it's going to harm me hard to get offended by this. Let those who enjoy these get them. Those who don't can just skip them. I would understand rage better if these were only source of some specific models. Now that would be annoying. This? Less so.

For me it's just such a no-news release that the amount of pages it has got was surprising

Speaking personally, the negative reaction is because it feels like a loot box, and I'm so fed up of the terrible things loot boxes have done to the video game industry, and I don't want to see GW get any encouragement to go more in that direction. I'll freely admit it's an emotional reaction that isn't warranted based simply on what GW has done itself. It's the context (which GW itself is well aware of).

 insaniak wrote:

It's absolutely sufficient. What HBMC was (presumably) referring to was Australian retail laws prohibiting stores from displaying messages with a blanket 'No refunds' message, as customers are legally entitled to a refund in certain situations. Stores are not legally required to give you a refund just because you decided you don't want the thing you purchased, and if they allow it under their normal returns policy they are perfectly within their rights to specify that certain items are exempt from it.

I don't want to get into a legal argument here, but I'll just state once more for the record that I don't think you're right that a pop-up on purchase that says "no refunds" is sufficient to take something outside the official legal document that is the refunds policy. They would also need to amend that document itself to specify it doesn't apply to the product in question as well.

This would be different if they didn't have a "refunds policy" legal document in the first place, but GW does, and that means that document is what governs refunds, not what a pop-up on the webstore might say.

You're arguing with an Australian about an Australian law. I don't think insaniak is a lawyer, but I feel safe in assuming he knows more about the consumer protection laws in his own country than you do.

Nah, he should keep digging about that and keep us posted. He's really on to something.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't want to get into a legal argument here, ...

Then, I don't know, ... don't?

It's extremely common for stores with an open refund policy to exempt specific sales from it. So long as they tell you at the time of purchase, this isn't a problem.

Speaking personally, the negative reaction is because it feels like a loot box, and I'm so fed up of the terrible things loot boxes have done to the video game industry, and I don't want to see GW get any encouragement to go more in that direction

So, from curiosity - did you have the same reaction when PP did it? Or when Mantic has done it every Christmas for the last few years?

If the problem is that you're seeing it as a videogame-style loot box, that's a problem with your perception, not with the concept. It's not a loot box. It's a bunch of product sold for less than retail.

 insaniak wrote:
So long as they tell you at the time of purchase, this isn't a problem.

No, not under EU law
Online purchase of any kind has always a 14 days refund, without the need for a reason as long as the costumer did not use the item

so open the box, not liking what is inside and you can send it back without giving GW a reason and they must take it back as long as you are an EU costumer

 EnTyme wrote:
You're arguing with an Australian about an Australian law. I don't think insaniak is a lawyer, but I feel safe in assuming he knows more about the consumer protection laws in his own country than you do.

Were these even for sale in Australia? Someone else brought up Australian laws. I wasn't responding directly to that, I was responding to the general contention that it's ok to use a pop-up at the time of purchase to exempt something from your legal document that is your refund policy, even though that legal document itself doesn't say anything about it. I am not a consumer protection lawyer, but I do know enough about basic contract law to question whether that's true.

You can make whatever assumptions you want about the relative knowledge of each of us. You know what they say about assumptions.

I am not going to argue about it further; GW doesn't need my legal advice. I just wanted to clearly register my disagreement with the idea that a pop-up is enough, without actually amending the refund policy. The refund policy is what governs refunds, not what a click-through pop-up might say.

The post of mine that you initially responded to was specifically talking about Australia.

Yup, that's in UK law too, online orders (with very few exceptions) all have a 14 day return period where you can get your money (including outward postage) back

they can make you pay the return postage costs but only if they clearly state you need to do so, and, don't have any other dubious legal claims in there, which a 'no refunds' statement would do

 insaniak wrote:
The post of mine that you initially responded to was specifically talking about Australia.

Right, and I was making a more general point about the sufficiency of a pop-up if it has information that contradicts what's in the official return policy document, not about any particular Australian law. I apologize if that wasn't clear.

 Overread wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
7 page and mostly complaining how bad GW is doing this? Lol. And here I was thinking this release wouldn't generate that much discussion about it.

Honestly its somewhat surprising how negative some people are being about it. Then again I think some are simply looking for any angle to dislike on GW. I'd have though the real "hate" would have come after the boxes were delivered if they were proven to be rather poor in content (eg the Underworld turning out to be all dice sets and not a single model).

I don’t know about others, but I tend to get unreasonably irritated whenever I feel a company for whom I have been a “loyal customer” is trying to manipulate me using predatory marketing/consumer psychology techniques. Even if I don’t “fall for it”, I resent the attempt. And sometimes I am not immune to manipulation techniques, like FOMO, and feel really uncomfortable with the knowledge that a company has affected me.

I hate it when paying attention to a company I might want to patronize suddenly makes me feel vulnerable or manipulated. I resent that my only options are to consent to being messed with or to completely cut the offender out of my hobby life.

Yeesh. Go ask grandpa what a "grab bag" was. They've been doing this long before you were invented.

I figure that, while GW's business model is to create inelastic demand by getting you to buy a specific model, there are still miniature enthusiasts who just want some GW-quality models to paint. They may not even play any GW games.

GW has so many individual products, I can see how inventory and warehousing of non-selling (and discontinued) product can become costly.

Mmm, I miss the days when GW did giffles. Little raffles they did every now and then you entered by buying normally. Win yourself bags of bits. Still occasionally find useful stuff when I rummage through the ones I got.

I bought one, mostly out of curiosity. Best case scenario, I get some cool stuff, worst case, twenty Sergeant Harkers. I’m expecting something in the middle. What I don’t want will be on eBay next week.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Overread wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
7 page and mostly complaining how bad GW is doing this? Lol. And here I was thinking this release wouldn't generate that much discussion about it.

Honestly its somewhat surprising how negative some people are being about it. Then again I think some are simply looking for any angle to dislike on GW. I'd have though the real "hate" would have come after the boxes were delivered if they were proven to be rather poor in content (eg the Underworld turning out to be all dice sets and not a single model).

I don’t know about others, but I tend to get unreasonably irritated whenever I feel a company for whom I have been a “loyal customer” is trying to manipulate me using predatory marketing/consumer psychology techniques. Even if I don’t “fall for it”, I resent the attempt. And sometimes I am not immune to manipulation techniques, like FOMO, and feel really uncomfortable with the knowledge that a company has affected me.

I hate it when paying attention to a company I might want to patronize suddenly makes me feel vulnerable or manipulated. I resent that my only options are to consent to being messed with or to completely cut the offender out of my hobby life.

Very underrated comment.

Surely people knew what they were buying into, and the inherent risks associated with this , so I don't see an issue. The value is the same per box , I didn't buy one but as a painter not a player if I did , I would have probably happily painted the contents.
Certainly am keen to see the contents of one though......

Predatory marketing?
No, just no.

It’s a grab bag type deal.

In this sense, any form of deal or offer that reduces the price is, in your eyes, a predatory move.
Better avoid start collecting sets as those offer a discount, so therefore, are also predatory marketing.

People these days have gotten far too damn soft.
Someone offers a discount in which you can take it or leave it.
Instead they cry and moan about it endlessly.
Grow up.
No one has a gun to your head trying to force you into a sale.

I swear the mentality on here some weeks even manages to surpass Facebook for bitchy whining kids.

Yeah keen to see what’s in it.
Have no issue with them, and obviously people are happy or it wouldn’t have sold out.
(Too many comments from the USA saying good thing it wasn’t available there they wouldn’t have sold a single one, just because that person doesn’t think it’s good??)

Jackal90 wrote:
Predatory marketing?
No, just no.

It’s a grab bag type deal.

In this sense, any form of deal or offer that reduces the price is, in your eyes, a predatory move.
Better avoid start collecting sets as those offer a discount, so therefore, are also predatory marketing.

People these days have gotten far too damn soft.
Someone offers a discount in which you can take it or leave it.
Instead they cry and moan about it endlessly.
Grow up.
No one has a gun to your head trying to force you into a sale.

I swear the mentality on here some weeks even manages to surpass Facebook for bitchy whining kids.

Very underrated comment.

 gorgon wrote:

 Overread wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
7 page and mostly complaining how bad GW is doing this? Lol. And here I was thinking this release wouldn't generate that much discussion about it.

Honestly its somewhat surprising how negative some people are being about it. Then again I think some are simply looking for any angle to dislike on GW. I'd have though the real "hate" would have come after the boxes were delivered if they were proven to be rather poor in content (eg the Underworld turning out to be all dice sets and not a single model).

The boxes just aren't for every customer. But the world we live in has some people who don't get that concept very well and tend to rage when something isn't for them. And that's not limited to GW customers or even gamers.

Where is all this "rage" people keep mentioning?

Underworlds crate contents posted on FB. 3 warbands and a ton of crap including the carry case and playmat, just like predicted.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Underworlds crate contents posted on FB. 3 warbands and a ton of crap including the carry case and playmat, just like predicted.

Not sure how the carry case and mat are crap, perhaps for you but others very useful!

If there’s a carry case in the Imperium Drop I’ll be stoked.

Do we know where that person is posting from, as GW said different areas get different contents?

Tyel wrote:
So for example, if GW has a load of old stock they want *gone* - why not have a flash sale on it?

Logistics. Picking, for one thing. Easier to just shove stuff in blind boxes and have one product to sell, then discount a ton of products individually in the database and make individual sales.

Yeah, a terrain blind box would be great.