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So far we know:
The First Born Marines are getting another wound
Some weapons are getting improved Stat lines
Some Chapter Tactics are being toned down or adjusted to match 9th Edition

What we don't know:
Any changes to the Angels of Death rules of
*And They Shall Know No Fear
*Bolter Discipline
*Combat Doctrines
*Shock Assault
Points Changes for enhanced units and weapons

The forecast may be bad, but it's not exactly tomorrow's forecast we are looking at here.There is still a lot of information to wait for to determine if GW has struck a good balance of buffs and nerfs or pulled an Iron Hands.

Niiru wrote:

CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.

Hardly anyone has the opposite opinion. Marines having 2 wounds is fine.

Marines having the most overbuffed codex in existence in 8th, and then being the only codex released in 9th, which ALSO contains a large number of significant further buffs, while every other army has to wait at least a year (some more like 3 years) before they even find out if they will be playable in 9th or not - this is what people are objecting to.

Space marine codex should have been done last. Its already more than fine now. Or all armies get a buff via chapter approved or something so the balance is instant and not dragged out.

Well, I'd disagree about it needing to be last, The real problem is the 2.0 codex and then all the stupid repetitive updates in PA books. Had they waited to do doctrines (and give them some more thought), supplements and etc until this book, knowing it and the new edition were coming when they did the 2.0 codex, it'd be much less hostile.

It might have been too much for some, but a year between books and that ridiculous procession of updates was just way too much spam.

Hopefully the codex + supplements will stick so we will never see the latter again.

It also didn't help that the chaos 'revision' was just tidying up organization and not a power up, and a lot of people expected SM 2.0 to just be the same. Adding Phobos and just tweaks.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Also, I'm not happy that it sometimes becomes more point effective to shoot at vehicles with small arms than at Marines. That's really wierd. Like shooting at a Predator returns a better value when engaging with a bolter. That feels very wrong.

Blame the tourney crowd on that one.

One of the rules that AoS had that they constantly whined about is how certain units can downgrade or outright ignore certain Rend or Damage values. Vehicles and Monsters would have been a perfect place for such a rule to be a bespoke rule for the unit type.

 Kanluwen wrote:
One of the rules that AoS had that they constantly whined about is how certain units can downgrade or outright ignore certain Rend or Damage values. Vehicles and Monsters would have been a perfect place for such a rule to be a bespoke rule for the unit type.

I'm not sure that would work out well. We have the humble Autocannon at S7 AP -1 D2, a light Anti-Tank Weapon, which would become rather weak and pointless if light tanks and monsters ignored AP -1.

And then there is the Missile Launcher, a true Anti-Tank Weapon that would also be rather weak and pointless if tanks and monsters could ignore AP -2.

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
One of the rules that AoS had that they constantly whined about is how certain units can downgrade or outright ignore certain Rend or Damage values. Vehicles and Monsters would have been a perfect place for such a rule to be a bespoke rule for the unit type.

I'm not sure that would work out well. We have the humble Autocannon at S7 AP -1 D2, a light Anti-Tank Weapon, which would become rather weak and pointless if light tanks and monsters ignored AP -1.

And then there is the Missile Launcher, a true Anti-Tank Weapon that would also be rather weak and pointless if tanks and monsters could ignore AP -2.

Ah, but you see there's the joy of things...

Y'know how we're seeing "Blast" weapons added into the game now?
Imagine, if you will, that such weapons(and let's be real here, the Missile Launcher has one anti-tank profile in the form of Krak Missiles when we're talking Imperium) could have "Ignores AP modifiers on targeted Vehicle and/or Monster models".
Autocannons aren't "light anti-tank weapons" by the by. They're anti-infantry but also effective against light vehicles and flyers. Things like Ork Buggies, Tau Piranhas, Taurox, etc would be the targets for them as vehicles.

Niiru wrote:

CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.

Hardly anyone has the opposite opinion. Marines having 2 wounds is fine.

I had the opposite opinion. Or rather, I had the opinion that if Marines went to two wounds then Necrons and Orks should go to two wounds. Instead, Marines got two while even Necron Immortals stayed at one.

That's what pisses me off. As much as I love my (primary army)marines, and in particular my Tactical Squads, there's just a Marine-hur-dur about it that I really dislike.

Don't get me wrong though, I love the fact that Primaris don't totally outshine CSMs now in particular, and I love the fact that Cult Marines will go up to 2W, etc. That's all great. It's the relationship of Marines with Xenos that really, really bugs me.

Serious question:

Are we going to pretend that a Toughness boost back to 5 is nothing? That we don't know how Resurrection Protocols work in the new book?

Undead stuff doesn't get an extra Wound added onto it on the Fantasy side of things, despite the same mentality of "they're undying things!". They get access to bringing things back.

yeah, T5 is huge

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?

Not when you equip them properly. You could go full specialist close combat squad with them, 10 man in Rhino with 2 mace of contagions and 8 bubotic axes. That will mess up any elite infantry squad. Or if you wanna charge the big stuff, add powerfist, 2 meltaguns, and 2 great plage cleavers. The bonus attack from the special rules from PA really improved them alot.

LOL it really doesn't. They're a 5" unit without movement capabilities/shenanigans and then 2 attacks with zero shooting equipped like that.

Nobody will take the unit seriously even with the wound bonus. They'll charge, not kill whatever it is, and then sit pitifully.

The Rhino gives them plenty of movement. If you do not know how to use a Rhino to get a melee squad in range, then that is a player skill issue, because its pretty easy. They get 3 attacks on the charge, and you could buff them with psychic powers if you desire. We all know 30 attacks at str 5 -2 ap re rolling 1's to wound is pretty decent from a basic infantry squad. It gets even better if you add 2 Flail's of Corruption. Plague Marines also outlast most infantry, especially when they get a bonus wound in 9th codex.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Serious question:

Are we going to pretend that a Toughness boost back to 5 is nothing? That we don't know how Resurrection Protocols work in the new book?

Undead stuff doesn't get an extra Wound added onto it on the Fantasy side of things, despite the same mentality of "they're undying things!". They get access to bringing things back.

I'm not pretending it's nothing. But it's not 2W, and it's not the relationship Crons had with Marines for their first decade of existence. Even Necron Warriors were equal(or tougher) to Marines in toughness before any resurrection ability. My preference would have been Immortals going to T5 2W if Marines went to 2W. As it is bolters are more effective against Immortals than against Marines, and that is something that should not be.


Also, why bring up undead in Fantasy? Why do Necrons have to be undead-in-space?

And we have literally no idea where the current codex lands. If there's no tweaks to strats, points, and so on and doctrines survive as is then, yes, bitch.

If MM stay at 25 it isnt the end of the world. You then make sure a drop pod (5 devs and a pod sit over 260 now) cant get them under 12", which means W1 models who are more durable vs AP0 bolters.

HBs are already moderately more expensive and more efficient vs W2.

 Jidmah wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:Well, except that a unit of 10 can delete a knight with mortal wound grenades from 12" away.

Plague genades require a character to be nearby to not be inferior to just shooting your bolter. You don't cost units according to what buffs could be nearby maybe.

Crusaderobr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?

Not when you equip them properly. You could go full specialist close combat squad with them, 10 man in Rhino with 2 mace of contagions and 8 bubotic axes. That will mess up any elite infantry squad. Or if you wanna charge the big stuff, add powerfist, 2 meltaguns, and 2 great plage cleavers. The bonus attack from the special rules from PA really improved them alot.

The extra attack is for plague knives only and -1 to hit weapons are terrible on models with just two attacks. Bubotic axes basically turn plague marines into an unbuffed possessed with less movement and no 5++, not exactly something people have been running wild with. Not to mention that all those melee weapons would add 60-100 points to the unit's cost.
And most importantly, they could already do all that since the beginning, and yet no one is using plague marines that way. If they do, it's always blight launchers, bolters and maybe a plasmagun.

My bad, I meant to say flail of corruption, not mace of contagion, not sure why I always mix those 2 up. Also, check your codex under plague marines : vectors of death and disease : if they are armed with a plague knife and bubotic axe, increase attacks characteristic to 2 instead of 1. So 10 man in a Rhino all equipped with plague knife and bubotic axe will get 30 str 5 ap - 2 attacks on the charge, add flail of corruption if you want a little more punch. At 5 more points a model I think its worth it to make them pretty killy in CC. Flail's are optional at a slightly higher cost. They will charge and kill, then they will be harder to get rid of compared to other infantry, especially if you buff them with psychic if you so desire. I am never concerned with what other people run in their lists, ive been playing 40k since 2001, I can tell if something works and what doesn't at this point. Charging a melee squad out of a Rhino is not hard to do.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not pretending it's nothing. But it's not 2W, and it's not the relationship Crons had with Marines for their first decade of existence. Even Necron Warriors were equal(or tougher) to Marines in toughness before any resurrection ability. My preference would have been Immortals going to T5 2W if Marines went to 2W. As it is bolters are more effective against Immortals than against Marines, and that is something that should not be.

Why should that not be?
Not trying to trap you or anything, I'd just be interested in the logic.

Also, why bring up undead in Fantasy? Why do Necrons have to be undead-in-space?

I bring up undead in Fantasy because both are supernaturally tough enemies that could have Chumbawumba's "Tubthumping" as a theme song.

Undead don't get tons of wounds on 'basic' units. They get tough-ish units that can be resurrected wholesale or that can shrug off wounds or ignore save modifiers(in the case of ghosts). Whether you agree or not, Necrons have a similar design space.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And we have literally no idea where the current codex lands. If there's no tweaks to strats, points, and so on and doctrines survive as is then, yes, bitch.

If MM stay at 25 it isnt the end of the world. You then make sure a drop pod (5 devs and a pod sit over 260 now) cant get them under 12", which means W1 models who are more durable vs AP0 bolters.

HBs are already moderately more expensive and more efficient vs W2.

I don't really care about the points. I liked my Immortals at 28 points (and well worth it), and Warriors at 18, when marines were back at 15 during 3rd/4th.

If you're suggesting I'll be happy when I require a Strat to boost the resilience of Immortals you're barking up the wrong tree.

Whatever doctrines, special-rules, etc. they get had better be good.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not pretending it's nothing. But it's not 2W, and it's not the relationship Crons had with Marines for their first decade of existence. Even Necron Warriors were equal(or tougher) to Marines in toughness before any resurrection ability. My preference would have been Immortals going to T5 2W if Marines went to 2W. As it is bolters are more effective against Immortals than against Marines, and that is something that should not be.

Why should that not be?
Not trying to trap you or anything, I'd just be interested in the logic.

Because it's never been. And because if it's going to be, it represents another step of ongoing degradation of Xenos armies/troops in comparison to marines and I'm very tired of it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, why bring up undead in Fantasy? Why do Necrons have to be undead-in-space?

I bring up undead in Fantasy because both are supernaturally tough enemies that could have Chumbawumba's "Tubthumping" as a theme song.

Undead don't get tons of wounds on 'basic' units. They get tough-ish units that can be resurrected wholesale or that can shrug off wounds or ignore save modifiers(in the case of ghosts). Whether you agree or not, Necrons have a similar design space.

While similar, that doesn't mean they have to follow the same rules. Necron Warriors started out at T5 2+! and could get back up. Why do they have to be less tough than Space Marines? Their resilience was part of their original identity that I really liked. Also. . . veeeery Terminator-like. Necrons have gone from advanced alien metal to aluminum, I guess.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, why bring up undead in Fantasy? Why do Necrons have to be undead-in-space?

I bring up undead in Fantasy because both are supernaturally tough enemies that could have Chumbawumba's "Tubthumping" as a theme song.

Undead don't get tons of wounds on 'basic' units. They get tough-ish units that can be resurrected wholesale or that can shrug off wounds or ignore save modifiers(in the case of ghosts). Whether you agree or not, Necrons have a similar design space.

Not...really? Undead had a clear demarcation between the "basic" units that had the crappest statlines possible (Zombies in 6e were equal or worse in all stats to Skavenslaves) and the elite units that did the actual damage. Necron Warriors have always been far to the elite/expensive end of Troops and under 3e-7e Gauss rules were doing a lot of the army's damage themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
...While similar, that doesn't mean they have to follow the same rules. Necron Warriors started out at T5 3+! and could get back up. Why do they have to be less tough than Space Marines? Their resilience was part of their original identity that I really liked. Also. . . veeeery Terminator-like. Necrons have gone from advanced alien metal to aluminum, I guess.

The decline started when Immortals got moved into Troops; they got knocked back to the 4+ save to differentiate their statlines. There's also the design vision of Necrons as hordes of huge phalanxes vs. Space Marines' depiction as small strike teams, there's some conservation-of-ninjutsu going on there.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
...While similar, that doesn't mean they have to follow the same rules. Necron Warriors started out at T5 3+! and could get back up. Why do they have to be less tough than Space Marines? Their resilience was part of their original identity that I really liked. Also. . . veeeery Terminator-like. Necrons have gone from advanced alien metal to aluminum, I guess.

The decline started when Immortals got moved into Troops; they got knocked back to the 4+ save to differentiate their statlines. There's also the design vision of Necrons as hordes of huge phalanxes vs. Space Marines' depiction as small strike teams, there's some conservation-of-ninjutsu going on there.

Right, but it's like there's a rule stating that no other troop can be superior to a Space Marine. Move to troops? Gotta nerf it! The only real holdout off the top of my head now is Tyranid Warriors.

About the second part, the interesting thing to me is that the Necron Warrior phalanx was a pretty good build in 3rd/4th ed, when they were superior and pointed more than Space Marines. I really liked that army.

 Insectum7 wrote:
...Right, but it's like there's a rule stating that no other troop can be superior to a Space Marine. Move to troops? Gotta nerf it! The only real holdout off the top of my head now is Tyranid Warriors...

Immortals didn't get nerfed on moving to Troops and they retained SM-equivalent stats and better guns until this 9e wound count buff. As to other superior-to-SM Troops Kataphrons and Custodian Guard also still exist, and Harlequins are a borderline case (their statline isn't better than a SM statline but their damage output is vastly better).

 alextroy wrote:

Some Chapter Tactics are being toned down or adjusted to match 9th Edition

We know this? Where has this been released? I hadn't seen anything about traits being nerfed.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
...Right, but it's like there's a rule stating that no other troop can be superior to a Space Marine. Move to troops? Gotta nerf it! The only real holdout off the top of my head now is Tyranid Warriors...

Immortals didn't get nerfed on moving to Troops and they retained SM-equivalent stats and better guns until this 9e wound count buff. As to other superior-to-SM Troops Kataphrons and Custodian Guard also still exist, and Harlequins are a borderline case (their statline isn't better than a SM statline but their damage output is vastly better).

Before they moved to troops Immortals were T5 and their gun was Assault 2 24". They dropped to T4 with a Rapid Fire gun. Huge nerf.

Harlequins, fair enough. The others are still Imperial.

 Insectum7 wrote:
...Harlequins, fair enough. The others are still Imperial.

You said "...no other troop can be superior to a Space Marine..." before.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
...Right, but it's like there's a rule stating that no other troop can be superior to a Space Marine. Move to troops? Gotta nerf it! The only real holdout off the top of my head now is Tyranid Warriors...

Immortals didn't get nerfed on moving to Troops and they retained SM-equivalent stats and better guns until this 9e wound count buff. As to other superior-to-SM Troops Kataphrons and Custodian Guard also still exist, and Harlequins are a borderline case (their statline isn't better than a SM statline but their damage output is vastly better).

As insectum said, Immortals used to be T5 and their Gauss Blasters used to be Assault 2 24", but then when they become troops their toughness dropped to 4 and their weapons became Rapid Fire 1 24".

 Insectum7 wrote:
and Harlequins are a borderline case (their statline isn't better than a SM statline but their damage output is vastly better).

I mean I don't disagree Harlequins are good. They are the only Aeldari troops option out of all the races that is even remotely "not terrible".

But their damage is only vastly better -in melee range- which makes a pretty big difference. They are so fragile, and marines have a ton of ways of making sure they dont get into melee range. S4 bolters decimate Eldar, while elder S3/S4 barely scratches marines. (Harlequins are the exception because they are the only source of S5 attacks, but they are also 30% more expensive than marines).

 vipoid wrote:
...As insectum said, Immortals used to be T5 and their Gauss Blasters used to be Assault 2 24", but then when they become troops their toughness dropped to 4 and their weapons became Rapid Fire 1 24".

The fact that they got nerfed from "much better than a Space Marine" to "slightly better than a Space Marine" doesn't really make the "no Troops can be better than a Space Marine" theory hold up, though.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
...As insectum said, Immortals used to be T5 and their Gauss Blasters used to be Assault 2 24", but then when they become troops their toughness dropped to 4 and their weapons became Rapid Fire 1 24".

The fact that they got nerfed from "much better than a Space Marine" to "slightly better than a Space Marine" doesn't really make the "no Troops can be better than a Space Marine" theory hold up, though.

I don't care if it does or doesn't, honestly.

The thing I care about is the tension with alien foes they encounter (which is why I dont count Custodes or mechanicus) I.e. if five Marines encounter five Dire Avengers, what's the threat level? 5 Necron Warriors used to be a lot more dangerous than they are now. Some gravitas is lost on the xenos side, which imo makes things less dire for the SM which incidentally winds up making SM less interesting as a result.

The basic "dudes" in the Necron book were individually better than marines at one point. That lent a certain feeling of threat that isn't there anymore.

Niiru wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Some Chapter Tactics are being toned down or adjusted to match 9th Edition

We know this? Where has this been released? I hadn't seen anything about traits being nerfed.

Most weren't. But the chapter tactics page is visible on the announcement article, and people played a 'zoom and enhance' trick until it was legible. They're pretty much all known (including deathwatch and the snowflake wolf angels). Alpha Ravens got adjusted to better live with 9th edition rules. It isn't awful, but if you're fighting an army that wants to get close, you might as well not have a chapter tactic.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
My bad, I meant to say flail of corruption, not mace of contagion, not sure why I always mix those 2 up. Also, check your codex under plague marines : vectors of death and disease : if they are armed with a plague knife and bubotic axe, increase attacks characteristic to 2 instead of 1. So 10 man in a Rhino all equipped with plague knife and bubotic axe will get 30 str 5 ap - 2 attacks on the charge, add flail of corruption if you want a little more punch. At 5 more points a model I think its worth it to make them pretty killy in CC. Flail's are optional at a slightly higher cost. They will charge and kill, then they will be harder to get rid of compared to other infantry, especially if you buff them with psychic if you so desire. I am never concerned with what other people run in their lists, ive been playing 40k since 2001, I can tell if something works and what doesn't at this point. Charging a melee squad out of a Rhino is not hard to do.

If you think that's awesome, wait till you see possessed

Flails interact with DTTFE in crazy ways, making them extremely strong against Imperium. The rest of PM melee isn't terrible but it isn't great either. The main danger is their ability to delete basically anything in the game at up to 12" range with the mortal wound grenade trick if they have the CP and the character nearby.

 vipoid wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
...Right, but it's like there's a rule stating that no other troop can be superior to a Space Marine. Move to troops? Gotta nerf it! The only real holdout off the top of my head now is Tyranid Warriors...

Immortals didn't get nerfed on moving to Troops and they retained SM-equivalent stats and better guns until this 9e wound count buff. As to other superior-to-SM Troops Kataphrons and Custodian Guard also still exist, and Harlequins are a borderline case (their statline isn't better than a SM statline but their damage output is vastly better).

As insectum said, Immortals used to be T5 and their Gauss Blasters used to be Assault 2 24", but then when they become troops their toughness dropped to 4 and their weapons became Rapid Fire 1 24".

Hmm. Mass production (in-story) in order to supply enough Immortals to function as Troops appears to have led to an inferior model.

So in my head, given 10 marines and 10 immortals are the same points now, which whoever goes first wins a fight, ignoring all army wide rules since we dont know what they are yet.