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LMAO @ that London GT. In Finland, we call that kinda thing "rahat pois ja rappuun" behaviour

If I needed any more proof that tourney gaming is a joke, this was it. And people actually paid to enter, enjoyed getting frisked too no doubt. Flocking nuts

LGT is notable for being the exception though. That’s why it’s so notorious. Total lack of organisation and communication etc.

I didn’t attend myself, but quite a few members of my local club did. It’s not representative of the tournament scene as a whole.

Is there a backstory to just how it went so incredibly wrong? I’d say there definitely is. But to date, I’ve not heard it.


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JWBS wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Can't wait to see the snow boards with majestically painted desert terrain and/or tropical trees all over it

BTW, my specific issue with the idea is not the weight of carrying the plastic, it is the bulk of the carrying cases, even if they are light, they are big.

Reading my last post again, I've come across as very condescending. Apologies to anyone that noticed that. But yes, it's the volume that would be the problem. Sure if you're just chucking the extra volume in the back seat of your car it might not seem much at all, but I can imagine that carrying all that extra on public transport would be uncomfortable for everyone around, not just the person with the extra baggage. How much are we talking here? As much as comes in the KT main box, per person? That box is large. Yes, half of it is minis and rules, but once you've assembled the terrain it takes up at least as much space as that fairly large box.

There’s also the question of “cherry picking” your terrain, and worse, setting it up in a way most favourable to yourself.

There may also be snobbery about it. Me, I love GW’s terrain, and whilst my collection pales before HBMC’s Smaug like hoard (rumours that he’s secretly building a second planet out of it remain unconfirmed), I’ve still got an awful lot. Because I can afford it. But what of people with more restricted budgets? People who unlike me have actual life responsibilities, like kids? If I’m packing three of those gorgeous Imperial Ruins, three or four stories high, and my opponent brings some home made trees? Now, I wouldn’t be a phallus about it at all. But you know that to TFG, it’s just more ammo for the Jerk Cannon.

It’s also, arguably, another price barrier to tournament gaming. Tickets themselves aren’t cheap, neither is transport, and let’s face it, it’s not uncommon to book a hotel room as well, at least for one night. That all adds up, and having to bring X pieces of terrain? Well, something tells me it could be the final thing that prices others out.

One way around it? TO issues some simple instructions for DIY terrain. This gives uniform dimensions, and can be made relatively cheaply by even the most cack handed hobbyist (like me, I’m a bloody liability when it comes to non-plastic kit building). It also prevents people bringing highly favourable terrain, where others don’t have the luxury or space for a large, varied collection.

As for my local gaming group? You know the extensive collection I mentioned earlier, yeah? All being donated to the club, as with working from home, my gaming table is now my home office area, so no more home gaming. But as I can get to the club now, no need for home gaming! Win/Win really.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TO issues some simple instructions for DIY terrain. This gives uniform dimensions...

And then every table looks the same... and who wants to live in that world other than hardcore ITC players?

It’s one solution

Guess we’ll need to see the actual rules before we can really dig into it. They might’ve said more in the live stream, but I was driving when it was on so missed it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TO issues some simple instructions for DIY terrain. This gives uniform dimensions...

And then every table looks the same... and who wants to live in that world other than hardcore ITC players?

Also, you need to think about things more practically than that. Yeah, ITC give guidance on what terrain is required.... What happens to other TO's then? What if they want to go down a different route with terrain? The ITC crowd will whinge that they need to make even more terrain, at which point TO's will concede to their whim and next thing you know, all GT's etc are under the ITC banner, either directly or indirectly.

Let's not hand any power whatsoever to the ITC and its cult following, please. GW should have the common sense to dictate terrain requirements and follow a practical solution that doesn't gimp anyone.... Terrain piece 1 must conform to these min/max dimension standards, it must be at least 6 inches tall and no taller than 8, it may have 2 floors in addition to the ground floor.

I think we can comfortably assume that the rules from GW will require their own kits.

Now, mercenary as it seems, that’s not a terrible idea in itself, as GW’s kits are of course incredibly standardised, so they can be mixed together in many cunning ways. Seriously, the designer behind them is a genius, and no mistake.

Of course, with specific, set elements (height of a given floor, width being ‘3 sections long’) it’s not hard to make your own using those same dimensions.

But with TLOS (sorry, I think I’m about to rabbit hole, I’ll try not to), not all terrain is equal. For instance, we can have two pieces of terrain identical in footprint, height, width and depth. But, if I’ve used GW’s kits, there’ll be arched windows and other greeblies. For someone who made it themself, the walls might all be solid, windows at different heights and widths etc. At that point, the two pieces actually interact in the game in different ways.

 Sabotage! wrote:


Oh I agree wholeheartedly that Kill Team has an easier entry barrier and that is a good thing for getting people into the game. I also agree that GW would be shooting themselves in the foot by letting it die (as opposed to updating it to a cleaner rule set). It’s just my speculation on the manner of what I think will happen, rather than what I want to happen.

If what Kan was speculating about, a Warcry like 40k game set in the EoT was to take place I would be all over that. I love the idea of KT, but often find the squads kind of uninspiring and don’t think the rules are particularly good in that they are overly cumbersome in a lot of places and result in a small footprint skirmish game that often takes way too long to play.

Oh, I see what you mean.

Personally I just think GW is overplaying the "Combat patrol" card too much of late, to the point where they might as well be suggesting a new spin-off game called Warhammer 40K: Combat Patrol, when its really just a fancy name for "500 points" with more restrictions than benefits.

There is definitely something lacking for quite a few KT factions. Some factions seem to have healthy model and wargear options while others are woefully limited. Marines are a good example of having a decent selection( nothing wrong with that, of course ), but Necrons lack wargear and Harlequins have but one model to choose from(not counting Commanders nor elites). Its like there was no effort applied in designing the teams save for slapping in material directly from 40K. Having some background setting would be nice but would rather not with Warcry's theme of Chaos focused warbands and every other faction an after thought. I didn't invest in the game but it really looked like the AOS version of Necromunda with Kill Team bolted on. That said, Warcry seems to be doing something right, so maybe that is the way to go.

The next generation of players won't even know that there are worlds other than ruined imperial cities in the galaxy

Now i know it's all the fashion to dive deep into the conspiracy theories of GW wanting to control your thoughts, chemtrails causing cancer and 5G causes Covid, but lets try to be sensible. GW are trying to sell products that they think people want. It's that simple. Not every TO & store has boxes and boxes of terrain. This book provides options for people to use their terrain collections in a more structured way, and encourage sales of said terrain. That's it, not a great big conspiracy, just good old fashioned capitalism. Will it be popular? Not a clue TBH, it may bomb and never be seen again, but from a business perspective it's a low investment, low risk product so if it does sell badly, c'est la vie and it'll not be seen again.

And if it sells well, peeps obviously liked the idea and were willing to spend their pennies on it. Good for them.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The next generation of players won't even know that there are worlds other than ruined imperial cities in the galaxy

That's been true since third edition, terrible little palm trees aside.

MaxT wrote:
Now i know it's all the fashion to dive deep into the conspiracy theories of GW wanting to control your thoughts, chemtrails causing cancer and 5G causes Covid, but lets try to be sensible. GW are trying to sell products that they think people want. It's that simple. Not every TO & store has boxes and boxes of terrain. This book provides options for people to use their terrain collections in a more structured way, and encourage sales of said terrain. That's it, not a great big conspiracy, just good old fashioned capitalism. Will it be popular? Not a clue TBH, it may bomb and never be seen again, but from a business perspective it's a low investment, low risk product so if it does sell badly, c'est la vie and it'll not be seen again.

And if it sells well, peeps obviously liked the idea and were willing to spend their pennies on it. Good for them.

Ah, Reductio ad Absurdum, I have missed you so.

Seems like a last ditch effort to flog their branded terrain before 3d printers make that a thing of the past

 Overread wrote:
So what we've identified here is a need for more gamers to hit the gym to have the muscle to carry one more bag of terrain to events?

This is what plastic has done to us! Back in the days of METAL the average gamer would be far more muscled and ready to take on such a challenge - today the light plastic kits have made gamers weak! Sapped their strength and left them vulnerable!

I already carry 4 containers. Only reason i see ahead is they are transparent. Adding container or two more ain't feasible,

Not　to mention with easy 400e for army you think players will be　happy to shell another couple hundred for terrain to play? And invalidate gt20 book as well.


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 Manchu wrote:
The tables will definitely look better under this regime. .

Bwahaha. Good joke. At least i　hope you were joking

 Albertorius wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Now i know it's all the fashion to dive deep into the conspiracy theories of GW wanting to control your thoughts, chemtrails causing cancer and 5G causes Covid, but lets try to be sensible. GW are trying to sell products that they think people want. It's that simple. Not every TO & store has boxes and boxes of terrain. This book provides options for people to use their terrain collections in a more structured way, and encourage sales of said terrain. That's it, not a great big conspiracy, just good old fashioned capitalism. Will it be popular? Not a clue TBH, it may bomb and never be seen again, but from a business perspective it's a low investment, low risk product so if it does sell badly, c'est la vie and it'll not be seen again.

And if it sells well, peeps obviously liked the idea and were willing to spend their pennies on it. Good for them.

Ah, Reductio ad Absurdum, I have missed you so.

Business wants to sell products is reducing the argument to the absurd? I don't think that means what you think it means.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is there a backstory to just how it went so incredibly wrong? I’d say there definitely is. But to date, I’ve not heard it.

IIRC - It was their first time at that venue, and might have been their first event (or second). They massively underestimated what goes into running a tournament. They were also outsiders - none of the London clubs knew who they were.

Edit: Going off their FB page, 2018 was their second or third event.

Also - the narrative & 30k events were run by different people (but same venue) and did a much better job -

Now i know it's all the fashion to dive deep into the conspiracy theories of GW wanting to control your thoughts, chemtrails causing cancer and 5G causes Covid, but lets try to be sensible. GW are trying to sell products that they think people want. It's that simple. Not every TO & store has boxes and boxes of terrain. This book provides options for people to use their terrain collections in a more structured way, and encourage sales of said terrain. That's it, not a great big conspiracy, just good old fashioned capitalism. Will it be popular? Not a clue TBH, it may bomb and never be seen again, but from a business perspective it's a low investment, low risk product so if it does sell badly, c'est la vie and it'll not be seen again.

And if it sells well, peeps obviously liked the idea and were willing to spend their pennies on it. Good for them.

Where did you see a conspiracy in previous posts?

Edit - deleted.

Voss wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Now i know it's all the fashion to dive deep into the conspiracy theories of GW wanting to control your thoughts, chemtrails causing cancer and 5G causes Covid, but lets try to be sensible. GW are trying to sell products that they think people want. It's that simple. Not every TO & store has boxes and boxes of terrain. This book provides options for people to use their terrain collections in a more structured way, and encourage sales of said terrain. That's it, not a great big conspiracy, just good old fashioned capitalism. Will it be popular? Not a clue TBH, it may bomb and never be seen again, but from a business perspective it's a low investment, low risk product so if it does sell badly, c'est la vie and it'll not be seen again.

And if it sells well, peeps obviously liked the idea and were willing to spend their pennies on it. Good for them.

Ah, Reductio ad Absurdum, I have missed you so.

Business wants to sell products is reducing the argument to the absurd? I don't think that means what you think it means.

I think he meant that with the first sentence, this guy is reducing people who say that there other reasons that money for this book (and there is, example : intellectual property) to idiots

beast_gts wrote:

Also - the narrative & 30k events were run by different people (but same venue) and did a much better job -

Spoiler:

Huh, imagine staring across your table of unpainted polystyrene at the people having more fun on these tables.

-Ekko- wrote:

Now i know it's all the fashion to dive deep into the conspiracy theories of GW wanting to control your thoughts, chemtrails causing cancer and 5G causes Covid, but lets try to be sensible. GW are trying to sell products that they think people want. It's that simple. Not every TO & store has boxes and boxes of terrain. This book provides options for people to use their terrain collections in a more structured way, and encourage sales of said terrain. That's it, not a great big conspiracy, just good old fashioned capitalism. Will it be popular? Not a clue TBH, it may bomb and never be seen again, but from a business perspective it's a low investment, low risk product so if it does sell badly, c'est la vie and it'll not be seen again.

And if it sells well, peeps obviously liked the idea and were willing to spend their pennies on it. Good for them.

Where did you see a conspiracy in previous posts?

HBMC was saying that GW are gradually seeking to take control on several fronts and this is one of the steps. Might have been a different thread though.

Voss wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:


Ah, Reductio ad Absurdum, I have missed you so.

Business wants to sell products is reducing the argument to the absurd? I don't think that means what you think it means.

Yeah it's definitely not that. Occam's Razor maybe.

HBMC was saying that GW are gradually seeking to take control on several fronts and this is one of the steps. Might have been a different thread though.

Well, he's not wrong. They want to sell their products, so playing on things like intellectual property and such is a classic move to get rid of competition and put your hands on everything. GW is known for this, I gave some examples (Bretonnians, the space marine novel, rename everything,...), nothing to do with conspiracy that a company wants to put their hands on everything they can ^^

 -Ekko- wrote:

HBMC was saying that GW are gradually seeking to take control on several fronts and this is one of the steps. Might have been a different thread though.

Well, he's not wrong. They want to sell their products, so playing on things like intellectual property and such is a classic move to get rid of competition and put your hands on everything. GW is known for this, I gave some examples (Bretonnians, the space marine novel, rename everything,...), nothing to do with conspiracy that a company wants to put their hands on everything they can ^^

It's funny you mention the "Spots the Space Marine" nonsense.


20th Century Fox and Kenner got permission to use the term "Space Marine" from GW back in the early 90s. It apparently had something to do with a failed cartoon series called Operation: Aliens.

So, someone back then from two fairly big companies had the sense to seek permission. And yet the author of "Spots" didn't. Crazy how that works

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
LGT is notable for being the exception though. That’s why it’s so notorious. Total lack of organisation and communication etc.

I didn’t attend myself, but quite a few members of my local club did. It’s not representative of the tournament scene as a whole.

Is there a backstory to just how it went so incredibly wrong? I’d say there definitely is. But to date, I’ve not heard it.

Trying to run "biggest tournament in UK ever" just like that has habit of resulting that. You don't magically cast tables worth of terrain needed for that out of thin air. And rather than build capacity steadily straight with gung ho attitude.

Rather than letting your tournaments grow naturally as you build your capability they went for straight to be biggest in UK.

I could theorize more nasty reasons but let's just give them benefit of doubt and assume it was more of too much ambition in too short time frame.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -Ekko- wrote:

HBMC was saying that GW are gradually seeking to take control on several fronts and this is one of the steps. Might have been a different thread though.

Well, he's not wrong. They want to sell their products, so playing on things like intellectual property and such is a classic move to get rid of competition and put your hands on everything. GW is known for this, I gave some examples (Bretonnians, the space marine novel, rename everything,...), nothing to do with conspiracy that a company wants to put their hands on everything they can ^^

It's funny you mention the "Spots the Space Marine" nonsense.

Spoiler:

20th Century Fox and Kenner got permission to use the term "Space Marine" from GW back in the early 90s. It apparently had something to do with a failed cartoon series called Operation: Aliens.

So, someone back then from two fairly big companies had the sense to seek permission. And yet the author of "Spots" didn't. Crazy how that works

I didn't know that, thanks ^^
But what I said is still revelant though, intellectual property is a big issue for GW, what was the name again of the website they shutdown, the one who sold bitz for Space marines and a few heads for Taus, I don't remeber the name...

Just throwing this out there, but as far as I know they haven't actually shut down any websites. They've (allegedly) sent cease and desists. The only one we know for sure is Chapterhouse and that's because it actually went to a trial.

I'm sure to catch hell from the usuals about this, but it seems like a super convenient way for people to shut down or cease operations by saying "GW says I can't anymore" and just calling it quits, then open up another endeavor of their own concepts and models rather than just selling you bits for someone else's.

Chapterhouse, that's it, thanks !

Well, shut down, not shut down, that's semantic right here, if GW's lawyer ask, you obey lol.

That's a possibility for some companies fore sure, but it probably happened a few times anyway.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but as far as I know they haven't actually shut down any websites. They've (allegedly) sent cease and desists. The only one we know for sure is Chapterhouse and that's because it actually went to a trial.

I'm sure to catch hell from the usuals about this, but it seems like a super convenient way for people to shut down or cease operations by saying "GW says I can't anymore" and just calling it quits, then open up another endeavor of their own concepts and models rather than just selling you bits for someone else's.

Yeah, for some reason, a lot of people like to act as though a C&D letter is a legal instrument equivalent to an eviction notice or something when it is actually just a letter someone sent you. In fact, they are an invitation to a dialogue wherein the matter can be resolved outside the courts because no-one actually wants that level of hassle. Well, except “sovereign citizen” type fruit loops.

When GW’s legal team sent one to the team behind the 40K files for army builder, the team wrote back pointing out that copyright doesn’t actually cover single lines or references, just complete works, so there was no case to answer as the files don’t actually reproduce the entire work, nor do they seek to replace it. GW’s team evidently agreed because afaik no further action was taken.

And, as ever, copyright law requires the party that reckons they own it to actively defend IP and that. Hence for most businesses, it’s better to be a bit trigger happy. Because if you’re not, you stand to lose a lot.

Does that make it bullying? I’ll leave that to the individual.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but as far as I know they haven't actually shut down any websites. They've (allegedly) sent cease and desists.

A couple of companies (Taro Modelmaker & Wargame Exclusive) have said that GW just approached them and asked them to do some things differently, rather than fire off a C&D.

Let's not delve into legalese here and STAY ON TOPIC. Thanks.

Voss wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Now i know it's all the fashion to dive deep into the conspiracy theories of GW wanting to control your thoughts, chemtrails causing cancer and 5G causes Covid, but lets try to be sensible. GW are trying to sell products that they think people want. It's that simple. Not every TO & store has boxes and boxes of terrain. This book provides options for people to use their terrain collections in a more structured way, and encourage sales of said terrain. That's it, not a great big conspiracy, just good old fashioned capitalism. Will it be popular? Not a clue TBH, it may bomb and never be seen again, but from a business perspective it's a low investment, low risk product so if it does sell badly, c'est la vie and it'll not be seen again.

And if it sells well, peeps obviously liked the idea and were willing to spend their pennies on it. Good for them.

Ah, Reductio ad Absurdum, I have missed you so.

Business wants to sell products is reducing the argument to the absurd? I don't think that means what you think it means.

Maybe look at the bolded part. If that's not enough I don't know what to tell you.