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 Grimtuff wrote:

So, no matter how good a ruleset could be; I know for fact there are people that simply won't drift into IRL stuff, but there are others (curiously, many of them serving in the RAF in the case of our FLGS) that will hop between each no problem.

There was certainly a sizeable number of gamers who jumped from 40k to FoW when it was in its prime.

 insaniak wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

So, no matter how good a ruleset could be; I know for fact there are people that simply won't drift into IRL stuff, but there are others (curiously, many of them serving in the RAF in the case of our FLGS) that will hop between each no problem.

There was certainly a sizeable number of gamers who jumped from 40k to FoW when it was in its prime.

There absolutely was (one of the head people for FoW used to be a manager at my local GW), but from personal experience I know there are people that won't take the step to historicals, especially WW2 historicals due to it still being so comparatively recent.

Yeah, I'm one of them. I was constantly puzzled by people recommending FoW as an alternative to 40k, since they just didn't seem comparable to me. I can get behind some historicals (I have a vague interest in WW2 naval games, mostly just because I like warships and don't care about the historical elements, and I've toyed with the idea of buying into a fighter plane themed game like Blood Red Skies, but have no interest at all in reenacting historical land battles. The idea gives me the creeps. Which is not a judgment on those who enjoy such things (that would be somewhat hypocritical) but they're just not my thing.

I see the line about GW and marketing a lot. I'd argue that they've realised that they have no need to do so.

If you look at their latest end of year financial report, they give some stats on Warhammer community usage.Its got 8 million unique registered users, averages145 million hits per year and got 4 million views of the 9th Ed 40k video in 24hrs this year.

Why invest in marketing when you've got that sort of gravitational online pull?

GW's community page IS marketing.

Thing is you only come to a website if you know its there so who is bringing those 8 million users there; who is ensuring that you get new fresh users there every day? Stores directing people to the website; school clubs; staff; advertisements; white dwarf (it is sold on highstreet stores at least in the UK); franchise games and products (Warhammer Total War; Dawn of War etc...)


Basically if you rely on one kind of marketing then there's a high chance that you will reach a peak and then get stale. Different people engage and will be snared by different marketing approaches so by having a broad stroke of options you run a high chance of reaching more people from more diverse backgrounds.
In addition it helps reinforce each other. How many people will check the FB or Community pages for news when their store owner tells them something new is coming; how many check it out regularly because of the club or group they are in etc....

GW's multi-faceted marketing approach is what helps give them that online pull and, importantly, helps maintain it without relying on paying for google ads and the like.

insaniak wrote:Yeah, I'm one of them. I was constantly puzzled by people recommending FoW as an alternative to 40k, since they just didn't seem comparable to me. I can get behind some historicals (I have a vague interest in WW2 naval games, mostly just because I like warships and don't care about the historical elements, and I've toyed with the idea of buying into a fighter plane themed game like Blood Red Skies, but have no interest at all in reenacting historical land battles. The idea gives me the creeps. Which is not a judgment on those who enjoy such things (that would be somewhat hypocritical) but they're just not my thing.

Most historical wargaming isn't recreating specific battles though.
Usually there are army composition lists for which of the troops one can take (usually following a standardised classification system) for a particular army combined with a points system. The game is then a "what if" battle between two evenly matched armies that could potentially have been fielded by their nations in a particular time period (eg: Late Medieval German vs Mongols).

jim30 wrote:I see the line about GW and marketing a lot. I'd argue that they've realised that they have no need to do so.

If you look at their latest end of year financial report, they give some stats on Warhammer community usage.Its got 8 million unique registered users, averages145 million hits per year and got 4 million views of the 9th Ed 40k video in 24hrs this year.

Why invest in marketing when you've got that sort of gravitational online pull?

Marketing is presumably how they got there and the things you mention are actually marketing.

I don't know if it's been suggested already as I only read the first page but I think a large videogame studio with a popular, established IP could have the ability to be a success. I could maybe see a Diablo game being pretty cool. And the obvious one to me is League of Legends. But that would be much more focussed purely around the game itself, like a mini wargame version of MTG. And would play like the most concentrated hero hammer you could imagine lol

The thing is this wouldn't be a bad thing for GW at all IMO. Thousands of new potential customers would be brought into the hobby of wargaming which is only a good thing for them. I doubt many 40k players would cross over entirely, having so much already invested.

What would it take?

Outside of a time machine and some serious money?

GW contrast paints. Now *that* was marketing. Store demos, videos, and even events showing off professional-level painters, despite the product aimed at novice painters.

fwiw, KS is marketing up the wazoo, to the point where some established companies use KS for marketing under the guise of fundraising. Teasers... community manager... good communication... forum advertising.. it's all marketing. I've also seen marketing faceplants from various small companies that haven't ruined them, but cost them a fair chunk of their potential customer base. (Prodos and Cryptozoic come to mind...)

 ced1106 wrote:
GW contrast paints. Now *that* was marketing. Store demos, videos, and even events showing off professional-level painters, despite the product aimed at novice painters.

In fairness GW isn't as bad as this as some other firms. Infinity comes to mind as a range which markets using some really outstanding paintwork on their models which is not easy to replicate - especially when many of their models are also generally much smaller and closer to "realistic" instead of "heroic" proportions.

Contrast Paints were well marketed, but also a solid product.

I’m a reluctant painter myself. My skill never coming close to my ambition. As a former Gifted Kid in School, that means I just tend to give up unless I’m quickly competent.

Contrast? Knocked out 20 battle ready Ossiarchs in a mere four hours. Just need to crack on with the rest!

Yeah Contrast has been a game-changer for me. I still do fancier painting as well but just being able to get the basics done with One Thick Coat is a huge time-saver, and that means I do loads more painting because it feels fun rather than a chore.

When I first got into the hobby, I went to my local GW and the staff were very snobby, this almost stopped me from entering the hobby to begin with.

Then Heroquest and Space Crusade happened and I was able to get my hobby fix without having to deal with GW staff directly.

A few years later GW seemed to understand this issue and the staff became much welcoming. I then became a very loyal fan and have been so for a very long time.

Then GW released a statement saying that anyone who didn't think like them politically wouldn't be missed if they left the hobby. Now I go elsewhere for my models.

Short answer? Make me feel welcome and don't preach at me about your political views or any other non wargaming related views.

Another reason I love 40k is the background. I get to make my own space marine chapter or imperial guard regiment. Even my titan legion has its own story.

Wargaming is essentially political, and when the 'political view' is "Don't be rude about people" I can't help but feel your loss is a net gain for everyone else.

Yeah that inclusive statement was mostly "if you're racist/insulting/whatever then we won't tolerate you at our stores - good bye"

Which is basically GW store policy for years and years anyway. They just said it at the time because, well, honestly all the big firms were saying the same sort of things.


It seems a rather odd reason to walk out of GW stores, especially since it was a management release and likely had no actual impact or change in policies, especially at the local level.

Nurglitch wrote:
Wargaming is essentially political, and when the 'political view' is "Don't be rude about people" I can't help but feel your loss is a net gain for everyone else.

Wargaming is not political, it's an escape from all that noise. I don't care about your political views or anything else about you, I just want to enjoy a game of toy soldiers, but your right, its not nice to be rude to people or make them feel like their loss would somehow be a net gain for everyone. Thanks for the correction.

 Overread wrote:
Yeah that inclusive statement was mostly "if you're racist/insulting/whatever then we won't tolerate you at our stores - good bye"

Which is basically GW store policy for years and years anyway. They just said it at the time because, well, honestly all the big firms were saying the same sort of things.


It seems a rather odd reason to walk out of GW stores, especially since it was a management release and likely had no actual impact or change in policies, especially at the local level.

On the other hand, the fewer chud-right vermin infesting FLGSs, the better.

Mr.Giggles wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Wargaming is essentially political, and when the 'political view' is "Don't be rude about people" I can't help but feel your loss is a net gain for everyone else.

Wargaming is not political, it's an escape from all that noise. I don't care about your political views or anything else about you, I just want to enjoy a game of toy soldiers, but your right, its not nice to be rude to people or make them feel like their loss would somehow be a net gain for everyone. Thanks for the correction.

War is, in the immortal words of Clausewitz, a continuation of politics by different means. By definition then, wargaming is an inherently political endeavor, regardless of whether its the politics of the grim dark far future or of another period, and regardless of whether or not you view it as a game/form of entertainment or an escape, etc. Doubly so when you realize that its a social hobby, and thus social interaction with others and the political baggage that comes with that is inherent to the medium.

If you want to avoid politics, go play Solitaire.

Joyboozer wrote:While I agree bean counters are necessary, marketing/ PR departments ruin everything they touch and are more who I had in mind as being not needed when you have passionate creative people.

That's the perfect encapsulation of why many companies based around the owner's hobby fail. Marketing and PR is how people find out about your amazing passion project and without it your company will fail regardless of how good the product is. I think what is true, and what GW has often fallen afoul of in the past, is you shouldn't let your marketing/PR/accountancy departments make creative decisions about your core products.

Mr.Giggles wrote:

Then GW released a statement saying that anyone who didn't think like them politically wouldn't be missed if they left the hobby. Now I go elsewhere for my models.

Short answer? Make me feel welcome and don't preach at me about your political views or any other non wargaming related views.

If you think it's political to release a statement saying "be inclusive, don't be rude" I think you've either spectacularly missed the point of the statement or you may be one of the people they want to exclude. As corporate statements in the wake of the BLM protests went GW's was right up there with the blandest of them all but I have no idea how anyone could actually take offense at the core message.

As corporate statements in the wake of the BLM protests went GW's was right up there with the blandest of them all but I have no idea how anyone could actually take offense at the core message.

Because the people complaining about "politics" have politicized kindness. When the instantaneous response to "help others feel welcome in the community and exclude those who don't" is "WAAAAHHHH POLITICS IN MY HOBBY", it shouldn't be that hard to figure out that they see being a gatekeeper or a cockwomble as their god-given right which is being infringed upon by a bunch of leftists.

For me to switch over, I feel like I’d have to play a game that I really loved the aesthetics and gameplay to, just like a Dawn of War (#2 was my fav) and then for a store with a bunch of minis on it to exist that have same quality as GW stuff, it’d be really hard to do I think but I’d always consider it for sure

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Contrast Paints were well marketed, but also a solid product.
I’m a reluctant painter myself. My skill never coming close to my ambition. As a former Gifted Kid in School, that means I just tend to give up unless I’m quickly competent.
Contrast? Knocked out 20 battle ready Ossiarchs in a mere four hours. Just need to crack on with the rest!

Ian Sturrock wrote:Yeah Contrast has been a game-changer for me. I still do fancier painting as well but just being able to get the basics done with One Thick Coat is a huge time-saver, and that means I do loads more painting because it feels fun rather than a chore.

Yeah, Contrast was the perfect Marketing Clue

Take Something that already exists and is used by people for years, mix some new colours and sell it for a premium price as the shiny new thing that was not there before

The only thing Contrast paints did was enabled the "only GW" crowed to use speed painting techniques being there for 20 years with paints from other brands
problem was just those were not related to wargaming and GW advertised their way of painting so people doing the "GW Hobby" did not even thought about

long time ago, Silver Colour Spray + Tamiya Clear colours were the way to go for speed painting metallic Marines, specially Pre-Heresy Thousand Sond and Alpha Legion
White Primer + Green Ink was used for Orks (one layer for Grots, 2 layers for Boys, 3 for Bosses, Purple+Green for Black Orks)
Lot of people here got back to their original Washes/Inks from other brands after the hype as only some Contrast paints work really well while some colours are worse

GW re-invented the wheel with, after their marketing made you forget that wheels exist inside the GW Hobby and did a perfect job to let people believe it is really something new

and it is the same with everything GW is doing
GW is the only company doing a SciFi Wargame, and they are making the best possible rules, and it is something that was not there before
GW is the only company doing such big plastic models, and those are the best you can get for the price, and nothing as good as this has been made before

same with the paints, if you only know GW and some 3rd party products that provide alternatives to GW products (Vallejo has 2 main colour ranges, the good one and the one that was made to match the previous GW colours which should have been the next Citadel ones but they lost the contract, and people in the GW Hobby now the brand as an alternative for Citadel, while it is a standard art supply company and was a name in the art/model painting scene long before that) those things are really new to you
and the new fancy and shiny model for 150$ is the best model you have ever seen before and no one has done something like that, because you don't know that perfect grade Gundams exists or what scale model companies have done with their SciFi ranges

Marketing is everything here, and GW is very good in making people really believe that everything they to is the best possible that could be done and that they are the first in doing so

@kodos

Sorry, what other Contrast-equivalents are there out there? Is it just that it's a thick wash or something?

Inks and washes. You did the same basic thing with inks and washes.

 auticus wrote:
Inks and washes. You did the same basic thing with inks and washes.

Most inks and washes I used prior to contrast don't hold a candle. Contrast was a legit game changer without me having to make my own and make enough for an entire army and possibly future purchases so my armies would match. Could you do it before, sure. Could you get the same results for the speed and time put into the product, nope.

The only IP in the wargaming arena that i can think of that has the depth that GW has is classic battletech/mechwarrior. having started out around the same time as 40K, with a depth of lore as deep as anything GW ever wrote. then add a catalog of video games, novels, a collectable card game, a hero clix game and even a tv series to go along with the TT miniatures game. the fan base tends to be more in localized groups that the widespread nature of 40K that GW has created for many reasons(even though the fan base is just as devoted-never get a house davion and house kurita player started you will never hear the end of it)

The 2 main problems for it are
1.Unlike GW when the original parent company FASA went under the IP has changed hands between multiple companies and in some cases parts of it were broken off on their own. microsoft owns the video game side, wizkids had the card/clix game. ironwind metals makes most of the minis (new kickstarter aside) catalyst has the miniature game part and so on. so the kind of command and control of the IP is not available the way it is for GW.

2.The game itself, as a long time player i absolutely love it, however as a skirmish game it is super complex rules wise that directly makes it a small scale and long playing game. also because the scale is 1/300 there is not a lot of room for the hobby side of things other than painting.

There are currently many other game systems out there that are better than 40K ( i play several of them) but building/promoting the communities to support them is harder to do because GW has such a more accessible product.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Inks and washes. You did the same basic thing with inks and washes.

Most inks and washes I used prior to contrast don't hold a candle. Contrast was a legit game changer without me having to make my own and make enough for an entire army and possibly future purchases so my armies would match. Could you do it before, sure. Could you get the same results for the speed and time put into the product, nope.

some of those Contrast colours, like the flesh one is better (as there was not really one) while others are similar or worse than the ones I used before

but Contrast overall was nothing special and did not enabled people in doing something that was not possible before (except in the GW bubble were anything but Base/Layer/Shade was heresy and therefore any brand not offering a Base/Layer/Shade setup was seen as inferior)

all about Marketing and creating a bubble that keeps people away from other companies

GW is not the only company doing it that way hence why the comparison with Apple or Blizzard/WoW is legit

Because if there's a non-GW set of Contrast-type paints I'd love to buy some.

Nurglitch wrote:
Because if there's a non-GW set of Contrast-type paints I'd love to buy some.

Army Painter Quickshade, Vallejo Game Ink, Liquitex Acrylic Ink, Tamiya Acrylic Color Clear, GreenStuffWorld Intensity Ink etc.

or mix Acrylic Medium (like Liquitex Matte Medium) 1:1 with Airbrush Flow Improver and add any fine high pigment colour you want to create your own Contrast paint
(eg Creatix Airbrush Color works already like Contrast if diluted 1:1 with water)

from comparison, GW did a good job with their Yellow and Orange, White to some point and the Flesh, but those are 4 colours out of a whole range that added something new

Mr.Giggles wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Wargaming is essentially political, and when the 'political view' is "Don't be rude about people" I can't help but feel your loss is a net gain for everyone else.

I don't care about your political views or anything else about you, I just want to enjoy a game of toy soldiers

"I don't care about your political views" literally means you don't care if the person opposite of you at the table is a neo-nazi or burns crosses in their spare time. Not exactly something to be proud of.