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 vict0988 wrote:
A lot of ranting

I don't play Orks myself and don't have an active Ork player in my local meta, but even without actual gameplay knowledge in 8th/9th edition, reading all your rant about a single relic feels more like you are personally offended by the existance of it, rather than basing your opinion on something more solid.

DKK is a good relic that makes a melee HQ function well for its purpose, but nothing more. In the same way Smash Captains get dangerous with Thunder hammers, but don't win games on their own.

---
Honest question without intented to be demeaning:
Did you lose to Orks with that relic in the past and feel treated unfairly? Maybe we can give tactical advice if you want to share some battle report.

 Nym wrote:
All this crap about the Killa Klaw while Marines get the Fist of Terra that does virtually the same thing but tirades reroll wounds for +1 attack (which as a Deathskull I'd rather have)...

Or near invulnerable captains for cheap. Or guy that does easily like 18 S6 -2 D2 hits. Hopefully those people complaining about killa klaw aren't playing marines.

 Jidmah wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Do you have a number in mind? I totally agree that it could just be an early lucky streak, so is it 15 or 25 lists before we are sure that Orks need a nerf? Would me looking into the data for smaller tournaments be enough to convince you or are we sticking with GTs? I won't go looking into smaller tournament data if you don't care. Do you want to discuss how many top 4 GT placings is needed before we can agree that Orks need to be nerfed? Is it 6 or 10? I think 4/19 lists placing top 4 in 30+ person events already says quite a bit, maybe my math is off and it's actually quite likely to be due to chance, but my gut feeling is that it isn't.

At the very least I would expect twice that number of events recorded. My gripe with drawing conclusions from 40kstats right now that they are recording a very small amount of events and that their numbers actually contradict those of other people like goonhammer. If orks were so OP, why did they only win 15 out of 29 games that were observed?
Due to 40kstats mostly recording US events and the pandemic being completely out of control there, we now have the amount data of what would have been two weekends before the pandemic. Asking for a nerf of a faction after just two weekends of data would not have made sense then and doesn't make sense now.

Goonhammer has only recorded 7 Ork armies 29 games, 40kstats has recorded 10 armies and 45 games. If I were to take action right now I wouldn't have enough justification to buff Gretchin so waiting until early January with finishing the pts errata and then publishing it in late January would be what I am advocating for any serious 20% pts increases, I said maybe 5% to some units. DKK has needed a nerf since the release of the codex and has only not been justified after SM2 when Orks suffered for a while.

Did you not say DKK was the only good Ork relic? If it's the only good one then people taking another relic would make their list worse, no? Or is that power klaw characters are so overpriced that even with a free relic they don't compare to your other more efficient choices?

It would make the list worse...

Thank you for conceding the point.

I provided several reasons for why DKK should be nerfed, prevalence in current and previous metas and comparison with other relics such as Salamander's Drakesmiter.

Neither of those are arguments.

Premise 1: Relics weapons are allotted a certain amount of improvements over the base weapon such as Drakesmiter making some improvements over the base Thunderhammer.
Premise 2: DKK provides more and better improvements than Drakesmiter or any other weapon relic that buffs the premium weapon for a faction.
Conclusion: DKK is overpowered.

Premise 1: No relic should be taken in more than 90% of lists for a given faction. DKK is.
Premise 2: If DKK was nerfed as to be less overpowered it would be taken less.
Conclusion: DKK should be nerfed so it is taken less.

These are logical arguments of the deductive variety. What I dismissed were not logical arguments as far as I could see.

If you follow the wiki link I provided, you'll find out that the correlation between killa klaws and ork wins is not an argument by itself.

It does not show that DKK is OP, but it does show that every tournament topping Ork player thinks that it is the best Ork relic and I refer to their expert opinions to show that it is the best Ork relic by a long shot. Mads Kapstad did not bring DKK and got a draw and dropped out of the tournament he was attending leaving him in 55th place. That shows that players that don't use DKK did worse on average making DKK overpowered. What did you expect? I'm not going to go through the rest of Ork lists in 8th or 9th to find the other person who didn't bring DKK and see how well they did, are you?

It's similar to how in the 90s the user count of the Internet Explorer perfectly correlated with the number of murders in Chicago. Obviously the Internet Explorer did not cause people to commit more murders. Well, it might have, but then the phenomenon would not have been limited to Chicago.

No, what you put in your 40k list having an impact on how well you do is logical, Internet Explorer users increasing leading to more murders is not logical, you are being silly.

You also need to provide proof (for example from battle reports) that the killa klaw is crucial to an ork list's success for your observation to actually be an argument.

You would not apply that same argument to any other discussion about 40k balance. You are being pedantic to the point of trolling.

On the issues of that salamanders hammer - you are really comparing apples to oranges here. Salamanders get to re-roll one hit and one wound, the captain wielding it re-rolls ones to hit anyways, it can be vastly faster than a warboss and three times faster than a mek, has a 4++ save, has more AP and the ability to double its damage. A captain with the Drakesmiter is still vastly superior to a warboss with da killa klaw.

No, you are being pedantic, two relic weapons are not incomparable, maybe it's comparing apples to oranges but it makes sense to compare these two in this context. The Captain might only have M5 as well and he might be a successor with no relevant bonuses to melee. You can get the same melee buffs he gets by being from the right klan. A Captain with jump pack and Drakesmiter costs vastly more than a Warboss with DKK which is why you have to compare the upgrades each relic provides. Never being able to compare different relics is a really neat thing for someone trying to defend that his relic should not be nerfed, would you say the same logic could or could not be applied to stall a nerf for the Ironstone?

"Orks should krump good, DKK krump good, DKK = ".

Look, another ad hominem attack.

Ad hominem does not mean what you think it means. I was attacking the argument as I percieve it, not the person making it. You have presented some arguments here that I can interact with and I thank you for that, but the quoted line was not a personal attack, but an attack on your argument or lack thereof.

You have no fething clue how orks work, and you clearly don't even know their statlines. Go check a rulebook before you continue to make yourself look like a fool.

Do you know the line about stones and glasshouses?

Look, another ad hominem attack.

We can add that to all the silly attacks on my intentions which I have disproven time and time again.

"MA Big Meks are not proper fighting characters"
Hilarious.

He has 3 attacks he hits on 3+ compared to the Warboss' 4 attacks hitting on 2+. Necron Overlord has 3 attacks hitting on 2+, Destroyer Lord has 4 attacks hitting on 3+, Lord has 3 attacks hitting on 3+. Necrons sometimes put weapon relics on Destroyer Lords and Overlords, but never on Lords, so why do you put one on a MA Big Mek?

 Nym wrote:
All this crap about the Killa Klaw while Marines get the Fist of Terra that does virtually the same thing but tirades reroll wounds for +1 attack (which as a Deathskull I'd rather have)...

Fist of Terra adds +1 to hit and +1 attack but is d3 damage instead of flat 3, that's two buffs 50% more damage, it can be confusing that D both stands for dice and Damage, I don't know if they could replace Damage with Impact or something. DKK provides 3 buffs 149% more damage, it's probably a fair relic on a Deathskull character, although still better than Fist of Terra.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
A lot of ranting

Premise 1: Orks should crump good.
Premise 2: DKK crump good.
Conclusion: DKK working as intended

Do I need to say more? I'm not offended by its existence, I just think Ork players that worship a Codex Orks relic are silly although I am hugely saddened by the amount of personal attacks coming my way and hope the mods will crack down on it since they do not approve when I return heat.

If Killa klaw didn't exist at all but orks could take 15 thunder hammer equivalents on any unit and 40 ppm ones on characters they'd be certainly empowered. And by a significant margin. I'd take it immediately.

I personally couldn't care less about that specific relic. It just doesn't seem right that a warboss should be extremely bland in combat compared to a SM captain while:

1) Lorewise it's supposed to be an excellent fighter and with D2 or DD3 weapons he is not.

2) Balance wise it's nothing gamebreaking.

The most competitive Goffs lists using Ghaz typically give da killa klaw to the painboy, with no meaningful impact to the game. They'd go with no relics at all if the first one wasn't free.

In a vacuum Da killa klaw could seem overpowered, but in practise it really isn't. Lots of other ork units/wargear are extremely bland compared to other factions equivalents. Different factions should have different tools to shine, it's the whole balance that matters.

Countering a single melee specialist dude with 5'' M (6'' if it's evil sunz) is very easy and if a warboss manages to kill something valuable on regular basis you should definitely learn how to play

If orks become too solid on the tournament scene, players will adapt. Bringing anti SM lists and complaining that orks can counter them is pointless. Adapt your lists with also orks in mind next time and their winning rate will also change.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.

I get your point, but you pay CP for what a relic does - not points. We can't assume all Character PKs will be DKK and charge 40 points for it. The base PK is nowhere near a TH.

My point is that the buff DKK provides should not be vastly larger than its cost and since relics have no balance levers other than rules that is what has to be changed. We cannot increase the pts or CP cost of the relic so the magnitude or number of buffs needs to shrink.

Chainsword: no str bonus, no AP (for now) grants one additional attack. Cost: 0 points:
Teeth of Terra: Relic upgrade for Chainsword: +1 STR AP -2 Damage :2 grants an extra attack Cost: 0 points and 1 CP (assuming not taken as your free relic)
Power Klaw: STR X2 AP -3, Damage 1d3, subtract 1 from your to hit roll Cost: 10 Points
Da killa Klaw: STR X2, AP -3 Damage: 3, may re-roll wounds.

please note that Orks have no access to re-roll auras. Space Marines do (at least for now)

Let's be realistic here, you can't claim Da Killa Klaw is broken while being cool with teeth of Terra, a weapon that even without ANY changes made for 9th edition will outperform a basic power sword with ease. AND COSTS NO POINTS.

 vict0988 wrote:

"MA Big Meks are not proper fighting characters"
Hilarious.

He has 3 attacks he hits on 3+ compared to the Warboss' 4 attacks hitting on 2+. Necron Overlord has 3 attacks hitting on 2+, Destroyer Lord has 4 attacks hitting on 3+, Lord has 3 attacks hitting on 3+. Necrons sometimes put weapon relics on Destroyer Lords and Overlords, but never on Lords, so why do you put one on a MA Big Mek?

because you have no idea on how orks work... you spend a strat called "kleverest boss" to give the the mek +1A +1Wound and a WS of 2+ ....essentially giving him a warboss profile. get it now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... but i'll guess this is somehow OP too xD

 Jidmah wrote:
When green tides become the only competitive build for orks, everyone loses. It's usually a sign of a highly unhealthy meta where infantry skew manages to eek out wins because everyone is gearing towards another big bad.

Most ork players don't enjoy playing green tide lists, especially not at tournaments. Moving and transporting that amount of models is cumbersome, especially when you move, charge and pile-in 30 models to kill one and a half primaris marines.
A game using the green tide mostly revolves around removing models and standing in the right places while doing little to no damage to your opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

keithandor wrote:
Where are these winning Orks lists.
MY Orks are Zero from three in 9th :(

We have 4 top 4 placements so far, two were running tide variants, one buggy list and one buggies with massed trukkboys.

Lists can be found at the end of the first post in this thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/790345.page

I'm struggling to understand the point you are making here. It seems like, after looking at the 4 lists (which, I personally consider a top 4 finish at a biggerish event as being a "win", YMMV) that orks have a lot of different ways to build their lists. Just looking at the lists, there are a lot of different units that are used from each of one of them, maybe with more change between the models and playstyle of each list than most orks have.

Im struggling to see how this is a sign of an unhealthy faction. Im not being snarky, I'm am just not understanding the point you are making.

BrianDavion wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.

I get your point, but you pay CP for what a relic does - not points. We can't assume all Character PKs will be DKK and charge 40 points for it. The base PK is nowhere near a TH.

My point is that the buff DKK provides should not be vastly larger than its cost and since relics have no balance levers other than rules that is what has to be changed. We cannot increase the pts or CP cost of the relic so the magnitude or number of buffs needs to shrink.

Chainsword: no str bonus, no AP (for now) grants one additional attack. Cost: 0 points:
Teeth of Terra: Relic upgrade for Chainsword: +1 STR AP -2 Damage :2 grants an extra attack Cost: 0 points and 1 CP (assuming not taken as your free relic)
Power Klaw: STR X2 AP -3, Damage 1d3, subtract 1 from your to hit roll Cost: 10 Points
Da killa Klaw: STR X2, AP -3 Damage: 3, may re-roll wounds.

please note that Orks have no access to re-roll auras. Space Marines do (at least for now)

Let's be realistic here, you can't claim Da Killa Klaw is broken while being cool with teeth of Terra, a weapon that even without ANY changes made for 9th edition will outperform a basic power sword with ease. AND COSTS NO POINTS.

The opportunity cost of taking ToT is not taking a relic power sword for 5 pts or a relic power fist for 10 pts. A relic choppa would have to equal DKK - 10 pts not choppa + 1CP because otherwise you wouldn't spend a relic slot on it. ToT does seem OP. 5 attacks -1 to hit S8 AP-4 3D 6D on wound rolls of 6 40 pts, 6 attacks S8 AP -3 d3D 10 pts vs 8 attacks S5 AP-2 2D 0 pts, I'd say it ought to lose a little somewere, AP-1 is probably enough, am I going to get in trouble with SM players if I say this? Teeth of Mars might be okay because its IH and their successors only, making DKK Painboy or Mekboy only would fix it. DKK is not that broken, it breaks Ork relics, but that's a tiny part of the game, even on a Bike Boss (who is coming back thankfully) it's at most 40 pts undercosted, small beans all things considered, but then this all based on 45 games where Orks have done well.

RedNoak wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

"MA Big Meks are not proper fighting characters"
Hilarious.

He has 3 attacks he hits on 3+ compared to the Warboss' 4 attacks hitting on 2+. Necron Overlord has 3 attacks hitting on 2+, Destroyer Lord has 4 attacks hitting on 3+, Lord has 3 attacks hitting on 3+. Necrons sometimes put weapon relics on Destroyer Lords and Overlords, but never on Lords, so why do you put one on a MA Big Mek?

because you have no idea on how orks work... you spend a strat called "kleverest boss" to give the the mek +1A +1Wound and a WS of 2+ ....essentially giving him a warboss profile. get it now?

... but i'll guess this is somehow OP too xD

Yes, thank you, I just skimmed the lists and forgot DKB Strat existed, but I also forgot DBB Strat existed, the Stratagems do close the gap, but DBB Warbosses still get an extra attack compared to a DKB MABM if I am not mistaken?

DBB and DKB are both OP yes, a third of Stratagems in the game are OP IMO, Orks Strat PL is relatively high though, I would say its an Ork strongpoint, but I don't think DBB or DKB are the best. I appreciate the Stratagems more than DKK and making Ork Stratagems balanced might kill the faction without pts reductions. I am open to being educated but some people aren't interested in having a conversation. I believe I have yet to see an Ork player suggest a nerf or a rules change that would not benefit them, might just be confirmation bias because I don't like one of the Ork posters.

How is giving a 4++ OP for the warboss for 1 CP when SM captains have 4++ for free?

That's the biggest buff the warboss is getting from the stratagem, otherwise a warboss with DBB compared to a SM captain has +2S, +1T, +2W, +2A and advance+charge aura but the captain has +1''M, +3BS, +1save, re-rollin 1s (massive on high BS armies, even if restricted to CORE units) and the possibility of taking jump packs (also massive, it means 12'' + possiblity of charging flyers + free deepstrike). Captain a bit more expensive in points but it doesn't cost 1CP and it doesn't need a relic to work.

I think that DBB and DKB only makes the warboss and the big mek the units they should have been in the first place, without paying 2CPs for that.

One of the problems ork have is that many units really need CPs to work.

An equivalent of ToT would be extremely good for the big mek with KFF since he can only have slugga & choppa as wargear. It means it does absolutely nothing more than passing a 5++ aura as it is now. A choppa with the stats of that relic chainsword could give him some versatility and a real alternative to Da Killa Klaw as that warboss with Follow Me Ladz and a relic choppa like ToT can certainly replace a warboss in any greentide formation.

 Blackie wrote:
How is giving a 4++ OP for the warboss for 1 CP when SM captains have 4++ for free?

That's the biggest buff the warboss is getting from the stratagem, otherwise a warboss with DBB compared to a SM captain has +2S, +1T, +2W, +2A and advance+charge aura but the captain has +1''M, +3BS, +1save, re-rollin 1s (massive on high BS armies, even if restricted to CORE units) and the possibility of taking jump packs (also massive, it means 12'' + possiblity of charging flyers + free deepstrike). Captain a bit more expensive in points but it doesn't cost 1CP and it doesn't need a relic to work.

I think that DBB and DKB only makes the warboss and the big mek the units they should have been in the first place, without paying 2CPs for that.

One of the problems ork have is that many units really need CPs to work.

An equivalent of ToT would be extremely good for the big mek with KFF since he can only have slugga & choppa as wargear. It means it does absolutely nothing more than passing a 5++ aura as it is now. A choppa with the stats of that relic chainsword could give him some versatility and a real alternative to Da Killa Klaw as that warboss with Follow Me Ladz and a relic choppa like ToT can certainly replace a warboss in any greentide formation.

Another big thing is that DBB and DKB are only once per game on a specific unit as well. Heck, if you want Ghaz in your list, you can't even have DBB on a separate Warboss. If he's calling it OP, don't let him know about all the SM upgrades for Chapter Masters, Master of Sanctity or Chief Apothecary. Hell, he'll say the Ardboyz strat is broke too because god forbid an Ork "OP" unit (boyz) overpay for a 5+ save

Seabass wrote:
I'm struggling to understand the point you are making here. It seems like, after looking at the 4 lists (which, I personally consider a top 4 finish at a biggerish event as being a "win", YMMV) that orks have a lot of different ways to build their lists. Just looking at the lists, there are a lot of different units that are used from each of one of them, maybe with more change between the models and playstyle of each list than most orks have.

Im struggling to see how this is a sign of an unhealthy faction. Im not being snarky, I'm am just not understanding the point you are making.

No, you got it exactly right. I was responding to two different people. The faction is quite healthy, otherwise we would have one big winning list with minor changed rather than two archetypes revolving around a ~1000 point core, which IMO is sign for great internal balance.

The other point I was in response to the OP who was basically asking whether ork players are happy that the green tide is a top competitive build, to which I replied the green tide being the only choice for orks is usually a sign to bad game health, as it relies on dumping almost all of your points into a single troops choice.
That said, some of the Thrakka lists wouldn't even be considered green tides by 8th standards, when 150 boyz was pretty much the minimum a tide could get away with.

 vict0988 wrote:
Goonhammer has only recorded 7 Ork armies 29 games, 40kstats has recorded 10 armies and 45 games.

And here I thought you knew enough about statistics to combine two sets of data and calculate a new win rate.

If I were to take action right now I wouldn't have enough justification to buff Gretchin so waiting until early January with finishing the pts errata and then publishing it in late January would be what I am advocating for any serious 20% pts increases, I said maybe 5% to some units. DKK has needed a nerf since the release of the codex and has only not been justified after SM2 when Orks suffered for a while.

I'm 100% sure that you are just rambling about random things considering that up to September only 20% of the winning lists have 2.5-5% of their points in gretchins, while 0% of the people here are discussing a troops choice that has become 100% irrelevant to competitive gaming.

Premise 1: Relics weapons are allotted a certain amount of improvements over the base weapon such as Drakesmiter making some improvements over the base Thunderhammer.
Premise 2: DKK provides more and better improvements than Drakesmiter or any other weapon relic that buffs the premium weapon for a faction.
Conclusion: DKK is overpowered.

Premise 1: No relic should be taken in more than 90% of lists for a given faction. DKK is.
Premise 2: If DKK was nerfed as to be less overpowered it would be taken less.
Conclusion: DKK should be nerfed so it is taken less.


These are logical arguments of the deductive variety. What I dismissed were not logical arguments as far as I could see.

Premise1: vict0988 has no clue about orks
Premise2: vict0988 doesn't understand statistics
Conclusion: Any and all of vict0988 posts are wrong
See how that logic works? You need to prove premises to be correct before drawing conclusions if you want to claim being logical.
Also: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

'm not going to go through the rest of Ork lists in 8th or 9th to find the other person who didn't bring DKK and see how well they did, are you?

Well, you could also just keep quite about things you repeatably have proven to neither understand nor are willing to put effort into.

You would not apply that same argument to any other discussion about 40k balance. You are being pedantic to the point of trolling.

Oh, but I do. Go read my posts. Any of them. It's even part of the rules for the ork tactics thread.
As someone caring so much about logic, you should be aware of this: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
You are the only one claiming the killa klaw is op. Provide proof or go away.

it's comparing apples to oranges

Thank you for conceding the point.

"Orks should krump good, DKK krump good, DKK = ".

Look, another ad hominem attack.

Ad hominem does not mean what you think it means. I was attacking the argument as I percieve it, not the person making it. You have presented some arguments here that I can interact with and I thank you for that, but the quoted line was not a personal attack, but an attack on your argument or lack thereof.

The quoted line clearly tries to ridicule ork players, which is nothing but a thinly veiled attack against ork players arguing in favor of da killa klaw. Especially since it's just a permutation of insults you have flung around in prior posts.

You have no fething clue how orks work, and you clearly don't even know their statlines. Go check a rulebook before you continue to make yourself look like a fool.

He has 3 attacks he hits on 3+ compared to the Warboss' 4 attacks hitting on 2+.

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Another big thing is that DBB and DKB are only once per game on a specific unit as well. Heck, if you want Ghaz in your list, you can't even have DBB on a separate Warboss. If he's calling it OP, don't let him know about all the SM upgrades for Chapter Masters, Master of Sanctity or Chief Apothecary. Hell, he'll say the Ardboyz strat is broke too because god forbid an Ork "OP" unit (boyz) overpay for a 5+ save

We should apply all this "logic" to his necrons and see how that works out

Destroyers are OP. Pls nerf. Necrons too strong. My lootas cant get rerolls like they can. Theyre in every list so they must be busted

 Nym wrote:
All this crap about the Killa Klaw while Marines get the Fist of Terra that does virtually the same thing but tirades reroll wounds for +1 attack (which as a Deathskull I'd rather have)...

But...Deathskulls only get to reroll one wound roll and the Fist is stuck being with Crimson Fists, which are an awful Chapter.

 Billagio wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Another big thing is that DBB and DKB are only once per game on a specific unit as well. Heck, if you want Ghaz in your list, you can't even have DBB on a separate Warboss. If he's calling it OP, don't let him know about all the SM upgrades for Chapter Masters, Master of Sanctity or Chief Apothecary. Hell, he'll say the Ardboyz strat is broke too because god forbid an Ork "OP" unit (boyz) overpay for a 5+ save

We should apply all this "logic" to his necrons and see how that works out

Destroyers are OP. Pls nerf. Necrons too strong. My lootas cant get rerolls like they can. Theyre in every list so they must be busted

Destroyers are also broke because of that crazy value 1CP strat that lets them reroll everything. They can even deep strike with a full squad as Nephrekh for only 1 CP. Clearly both of these strats should cost 3CP and Destroyers can only have a unit of 1.

 Billagio wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Another big thing is that DBB and DKB are only once per game on a specific unit as well. Heck, if you want Ghaz in your list, you can't even have DBB on a separate Warboss. If he's calling it OP, don't let him know about all the SM upgrades for Chapter Masters, Master of Sanctity or Chief Apothecary. Hell, he'll say the Ardboyz strat is broke too because god forbid an Ork "OP" unit (boyz) overpay for a 5+ save

We should apply all this "logic" to his necrons and see how that works out

Destroyers are OP. Pls nerf. Necrons too strong. My lootas cant get rerolls like they can. Theyre in every list so they must be busted

Are you really going to argue that 1CP to reroll all hits and all wounds isn't overpowered in the first place?

They could make it 0CP and necrons would still get their asses handed because it's the only thing that has a reliable chance of removing hard targets in their current codex.

Context is everything.

 Jidmah wrote:
They could make it 0CP and necrons would still get their asses handed because it's the only thing that has a reliable chance of removing hard targets in their current codex.

Context is everything.

Exactly. Things that may be broken in one codex is not necessarily the case in another. The Ork Bad Moons trait would be great in an Eldar, SM or IG army, but in the Orks army, it's pretty meh given our low BS and inability to really make the most of it compared to what you miss out on other klanz like Deathskullz, especially with the current weapons we have.

Now the Necron Destroyer strat SHOULD change once the rest of the army has had a makeover, but if you were to only nerf that in the Necron army while leaving everything else, you're just kicking someone while they're down.

Remember guys, violating rule #1 is OK as long as it takes the form of bad-faith or passive-aggressive posts.

 Jidmah wrote:
They could make it 0CP and necrons would still get their asses handed because it's the only thing that has a reliable chance of removing hard targets in their current codex.

Context is everything.

You're not looking at what the rule is in the first place though. If a unit isn't good without it, and it upholds an army, there's a design issue. That's basically what you're defending. Regardless if it were Marines or Orks or even Eldar using the Killa Klaw, the straight upgrade for a Power Fists stats to reroll all wounds, removing the negative modifiers to hit, and the constant 3 damage is pretty bad design.

Well, obviously the most powerful ork HQ hitting like a wet noodle up to the point where where it is unplayable without a relics bad design.
PKs are just utterly terrible weapons - the number of powerfists across marine and eldar lists are pretty telling. There are plenty examples of PF relics which do slightly less then the killa klaw, and none of them ever see play anywhere. Because they suck. You need these amounts of buffs to make a PK/PF worthwhile.

However, the quality of GW's rules is completely off topic. Either a warboss/klever big mek with killa klaw is a problem or it isn't. Everything else is irrelevant.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:


The only thing that 100% needs a nerf is Da Killa Klaw, but Ork players will whine and scream if it happens, they whine and scream as soon as it is suggested.

Warboss with killa klaw is on par with SM captain with TH, except the latter can also take jump packs to be mobile, deepstrike and assault flyers. I really don't see anything overpowered here, with the melee oriented commander getting a damage 3 close combat weapon which is allowed on one model only; if anything it's the standard power klaw and killsaw that should be buffed to be at least flat 3 damage now that thunder hammers are flat 4, and other relics to be buffed. Killa Klaw is litterally the only relic worth taking in the entire codex, again we're not SM that have tons of them.

Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.

What's the final cost and effectiveness of the unit?

If DKK is showing up in 90% of lists, but is not OP as a relic- maybe the problem is the limited selection and poor choices for ork relics.

Rather than remove DKK, maybe Orks need more relic options.

 Alwrath wrote:
So, after a big second place GT win after crushing 2 Space Marine armies ( Ultra Marines, Blood Angels ), how do Ork players feel about the current meta? Are you happy that Orks are strong in 8th/9th edition? Are you glad the green tide is strong right now? How many Space Marine armies have you killed at your local meta? I honestly am considering ebaying my Primaris in favor of Orks atm, the PA book and codex look amazing, and I honestly cant wait to see what the 9th edition codex brings to the green players since 8th/9th has proven they are already an amazing army to play, especially in objective games.

Right now a lot of players are still adapting to 9th edition, not to mention many are not able to play at all or visit tournaments/ hobby clubs.
In our city it's kinda ok right now so I had the chance to play against different factions in my hobby club and got in 20+ games so far.

So personally I feel like I had a small head start in my hobby club, as I was one of the more active players right at the start.
Horde Orks do what they always have done, and it feels like they do it even better. But honestly, as a few have mentioned here, not everybody has had the chance to get into 9th, so especially the tournament results are not really meaningfull right now.

Orks had always the possibility to go for board control and 9th edition punishes players that still play like 8th. With more and more armies pushing for board control, using infiltrating units like Nurglings and fast and / or durable units to take objectives after cleaning them it might get harder for horde soon.

The Buggie lists are quite good as well with some variances and personally I enjoy them. They are fast to play, killy, leave room for movement tactic and are not as taxing as fielding 200+ models, even with movement trays.

Overall it feels like a lot units are worth considering for specific lists and it's not like we have that one or two builds that are our only viable option.
Also after I initially thought that 9th would be kinda hard for orks with the new rules, there have been many changes & things i realised, that were beneficial after all, especially the mission design.

Of course there is a year with lots of changes ahead of us if GW is about to drop 1-2 new books a month, but hey that's the game, right?


So to answer your question: Quite happy, a good (head)start with upcoming challenges and new books keeping everything interesting. Also had the chance to try out a lot more stuff than I did in 8th.

blaktoof wrote:
If DKK is showing up in 90% of lists, but is not OP as a relic- maybe the problem is the limited selection and poor choices for work relics.

Rather than remove DKK, may e Orks need more relic options.

Pretty much this. I would LOVE to take other relics, if the opportunity cost of not taking the DKK wasn't so great. As mentioned before previously, the vast majority of offensive relics in Orks for some reason are bizarrely ineffectual shooting options that you'd manage to shoot, at best, maybe for 2 rounds to little to no impact. The ones worth taking are klan locked behind traits that are sub-optimal, which is why you never see them. The one other melee option is grossly ineffective compared to DKK and even some stuff that I would consider taking (the Supa Cybork Body) isn't optimal since making a tanky boss is somewhat redundant with all the crazy high damage weapons flying all over the place since if you fail the 4+ invuln. save for the Warboss with DBB, you're likely already dead.

Tone the DKK down, once we have other things to use worth taking.

It's pretty much the equivalent of Veil of Darkness in Necron lists. It's auto-take because it's the only one that consistently does something every game.

How does we feel about da melta? We feels burnt is wot we feel 'umie!

Orks are in a really good spot as a faction.
They're performing well on top tables, the edition really benefits their play style, and for once they can be good with a variance of builds.

Plus they're still extremely fun! And now playing them the fun wacky way is even better than just cheesy shooting with them.

A faction is in a good place when it's got too many good options to fit into a list.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
Orks are in a really good spot as a faction.
They're performing well on top tables, the edition really benefits their play style, and for once they can be good with a variance of builds.

Plus they're still extremely fun! And now playing them the fun wacky way is even better than just cheesy shooting with them.

A faction is in a good place when it's got too many good options to fit into a list.

Orks are one of the factions this edition inherently favors. They have a fight-oriented basic troop, that already has one of the +1A replacement rules on their default fight weapon in a ruleset that favors fight to score while also making Fight universally less efficient. The armies/units with built in fixes are going to shine. Tau and Necron players should be in a fetal ball right now. Nid players should be throwing an epic tantrum. Kroot don't have a +1A, Necrons don't even have a Fight based Troop, Nid Players get a +1A rule, but then can't put it on their Fight Troops.

Goonhammer article relevant to the topic:
https://www.goonhammer.com/9th-edition-tier-list-expectations-vs-reality/

Just scroll to orks if you don't care about the other armies. The also agree with Breton's analysis above on why certain armies aren't doing well.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, obviously the most powerful ork HQ hitting like a wet noodle up to the point where where it is unplayable without a relics bad design.
PKs are just utterly terrible weapons - the number of powerfists across marine and eldar lists are pretty telling. There are plenty examples of PF relics which do slightly less then the killa klaw, and none of them ever see play anywhere. Because they suck. You need these amounts of buffs to make a PK/PF worthwhile.

However, the quality of GW's rules is completely off topic. Either a warboss/klever big mek with killa klaw is a problem or it isn't. Everything else is irrelevant.

there is however, a light at the end of the tunnel. IIRC the power fist is getting a revision in the marines codex, so Orks can expect the Power Klaw to be similarily upgraded when they get their codex. it'll be frustrating to have to wait, but at least we know GW reckongizes their mistake