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 Grimtuff wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I think another way this will be pitched by the GW Defence Force is that you're helping to take the financial strain off TOs by bringing your own terrain rather than expecting the tournament to 'cover it'.

Cause it's not like there are tens of popular Youtube channels out there showing you how to make good-looking cheap terrain...

Oh wait, that's right. They want to play on the homogenized smaller, officially approved GW boards with officially approved expensive GW terrain kits. Can't be besmirching the appearance of the game with chipboard and recycled items. Gotta flash the cash to let everyone know you play at your elite pro level tourney that will totally be a for realsies esport one day! I will mum I'll show you, then you'll be sorry!

It doesn't feel long ago I attended the opening for their Sheffield gaming centre and were showing you how to make craters out of those free AOL CDs in ASDA, some plaster and bitz. Granted, 'not so long ago' is probably about fourteen years or so at this point but...

One thing I always enjoyed about the different GW stores was seeing their unique table and terrain setups, whilst on the few occasions I've set foot in one in recent years it's always the same identical Sector Imperialis and... whatever AoS' official Citadel(tm) terrain sets are called.

It'll be interesting to see how Signals reacts to this, it should be a strong clue for how TOs are going to react generally.

I am holding out some hope that the reason this is in an "optional" pack and not part of the GT book is not only because GW wants to charge you more for it, but also because somebody somewhere (i.e. Reece or Brandt) put their foot down and said "you cannot put this in the core rules as a core part of the tournament experience or we will not sign on to using the GW mission pack."

Probably wishful thinking, but lest anyone accuse me of always being a pessimist...

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I think another way this will be pitched by the GW Defence Force is that you're helping to take the financial strain off TOs by bringing your own terrain rather than expecting the tournament to 'cover it'.

Cause it's not like there are tens of popular Youtube channels out there showing you how to make good-looking cheap terrain...

Oh wait, that's right. They want to play on the homogenized smaller, officially approved GW boards with officially approved expensive GW terrain kits. Can't be besmirching the appearance of the game with chipboard and recycled items. Gotta flash the cash to let everyone know you play at your elite pro level tourney that will totally be a for realsies esport one day! I will mum I'll show you, then you'll be sorry!

It doesn't feel long ago I attended the opening for their Sheffield gaming centre and were showing you how to make craters out of those free AOL CDs in ASDA, some plaster and bitz. Granted, 'not so long ago' is probably about fourteen years or so at this point but...

One thing I always enjoyed about the different GW stores was seeing their unique table and terrain setups, whilst on the few occasions I've set foot in one in recent years it's always the same identical Sector Imperialis and... whatever AoS' official Citadel(tm) terrain sets are called.

Ha! Small world. Myself and a friend went to that too, not before getting lost though.

The loss of scratchbashed terrain in this hobby (well, what is immediately visible to a newer gamer) is one of the greatest losses out there. I don't want to play on the same board every time with same models over and over. Making your own terrain is dead easy and it can look great with minimal effort. I remember there being this amazing modular board at my local GW with ruins made from chipboard and some plastic computer parts, chemical tanks made from coffee tins etc. It was a city board that was built in such a way that the pieces could literally be slotted out for different ones.

My current local GW used to have loads and loads of different board setups, including the infamous Lizardmen temple board made from 50mm bases that made guess range weapons (and charges in WHFB) laser guided accurate.

Serious people, do you really think that tournaments are adapting the new table sizes because of blind loyalty to GW?
It's an all-upside change for anyone running a mid to large size event, because rent a smaller place and less tables for the same number of participants or get more paying participants into the same space as before.
GT organizers are still running a business, they are about as loyal to GW as GW is loyal to us.

Wayniac wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I somehow doubt that tournaments will be adopting this.

Depends on if the Minister of Propaganda decides to adopt it for ITC, if so that will cause a big chunk of people to start using it...

I think this link will answer that question: https://store.frontlinegaming.org/terrain/itc-terrain-series/

Maybe I wasn't wrong to hold out hope. The reaction from Signals is super, super "meh." I think Reece even introduced the book as "the book you didn't know you needed or wanted," which is pretty savage for them.

Reece then made it super clear it will "never, ever, ever work at LVO." And then Freddie said "the tables will look like crap," which is obviously true.

The wrap-up was "it's an interesting idea, from talking to other TOs none of them seemed very interested."

If nothing else, it's clear GW hasn't stitched this one up with the TO community the way they did with the GT pack. So that's a massive relief.

I think there is some glaring issues they haven't really thought about..

- You going to paint the terrain instead of the 100+ purchased models backlog for your army/armies.. ??

- You have to transport the bloody things non top of your army, where some armies already need a small city bus worth of space...

- You gotta buy the book, and buy the exact terrain IF it will be usable at tourneys and IF people will want to use it localy. (I can tell you my group already said they are passing up on this)

- What do you do about people who don't have said terrain/ Don't want it If you are hosting a "competative" event. If half people wont bother with this/ think its unfair, so they will just loose/have no chance of winning the event? Good luck running future events..

Yeah... I think as a fluff bunny narrative piece it will work for some players but I guarantee you it wont catch on competitively. Player A might buy this, but as soon as player B wont player A will not be bale to use it or will need to find another player.. Its very silly. So I think the people who will buy this are people who already buy GW terrain coz its new terrain.. Seems like waste of time marketing it to average palyers imo.

This is a reaction to so-called 'events organizers' or storeowners at some indie shops here in the US whining that it's "too hard!" to have terrain on hand.

It's not. It's a matter of wanting to:
a) Invest a little bit of time and/or effort into setting up designated tables.
or
b) Actually getting one of your locals to do it for you and making their pay worthwhile.

With all that said, I see zero issues with this provided it's in the context of a Tactical Deployment game. Which is what this release is about.

And really, what is there to get upset about with stuff like this?


It shows you the scenery piece in question. It has all the details right there on the card. Getting upset about it just seems like you're wanting an excuse to be upset.

No, this is not a reaction to anything but GW thinking "you know what? let's see if we can get people to buy specialized terrain for every army they own, and then we can not only charge them for the terrain, we can also charge them for the book with the rule and the datasheets too!"

Any TO that didn't have enough terrain could just ask around and borrow some, it's not that hard. This is totally different; the whole objective is to get players buying and carrying around their own official GW terrain as part of their armies.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Reece then made it super clear it will "never, ever, ever work at LVO." And then Freddie said "the tables will look like crap," which is obviously true.

The wrap-up was "it's an interesting idea, from talking to other TOs none of them seemed very interested."

This now my fav post in the thread.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I see zero issues with this...

What a shock.

I just want to know what the pipeway access point does.

ccs wrote:
I just want to know what the pipeway access point does.

Ballpark guess is that it shows where pipelines can be linked to the outside of the scenery and where the pipes would have to go through within the actual scenery if you chose to run them through the scenery piece as well.

 Argive wrote:

- You going to paint the terrain instead of the 100+ purchased models backlog for your army/armies.. ??

Yes?
I mean,terrain is part of my hobby/games. Some of it can be bought ready-to-play. But some times I need to invest time building & painting stuff. Wether that's GW's stuff, someone else's, or disparate bitz from the hardware store/Walmarts toy aisles/local craft store is irrelevant.

ccs wrote:
Yes?
I mean,terrain is part of my hobby/games. Some of it can be bought ready-to-play. But some times I need to invest time building & painting stuff. Wether that's GW's stuff, someone else's, or disparate bitz from the hardware store/Walmarts toy aisles/local craft store is irrelevant.

It's generally not a first priority for people though. It is for me, but I'm weird, and not everyone thinks of terrain the way I do.

 Grimtuff wrote:

The loss of scratchbashed terrain in this hobby (well, what is immediately visible to a newer gamer) is one of the greatest losses out there. I don't want to play on the same board every time with same models over and over.

Eh... I've seen the downside to this too often. Terrain that's absolutely dreadful and its still the same boards with same terrain over and over.

Not saying this particular move is good, but 'scratchbashed' terrain has a real variety. And sadly, it tends to range between really poor (Chunk-cut Styrofoam vaguely daubed with a color to badly flocked blocks of wood with corners shaved off) and vaguely acceptable, but not much more.

ccs wrote:

 Argive wrote:

- You going to paint the terrain instead of the 100+ purchased models backlog for your army/armies.. ??

Yes?
I mean,terrain is part of my hobby/games. Some of it can be bought ready-to-play. But some times I need to invest time building & painting stuff. Wether that's GW's stuff, someone else's, or disparate bitz from the hardware store/Walmarts toy aisles/local craft store is irrelevant.

I meant if you are actively in process of building and painting an army.. there's usually an actual unit that your army needs.. Could always do with one more XYZ etc..

They want you to buy and paint several hundred dollars worth of new GW terrain, not take your old stuff with you. Why do you think they have datasheets with precise dimensions?

The end-game here is GW hoping to be able to create a hobby where people feel the same need to buy GW branded terrain as they do to buy GW branded models.

Voss wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

The loss of scratchbashed terrain in this hobby (well, what is immediately visible to a newer gamer) is one of the greatest losses out there. I don't want to play on the same board every time with same models over and over.

Eh... I've seen the downside to this too often. Terrain that's absolutely dreadful and its still the same boards with same terrain over and over.

Not saying this particular move is good, but 'scratchbashed' terrain has a real variety. And sadly, it tends to range between really poor (Chunk-cut Styrofoam vaguely daubed with a color to badly flocked blocks of wood with corners shaved off) and vaguely acceptable, but not much more.

It certainly does get interesting when you go to a smaller tourney that requests you bring a few pieces of your own terrain just to flesh out their own collections. You end up with tables that have wildly differing quality of terrain. From stuff that looks great but is impractical to stuff that looks bad but is practical to stuff that's just, kinda bad allround.

Also when in doubt, bring out the foamcore lads!

 Argive wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Argive wrote:

- You going to paint the terrain instead of the 100+ purchased models backlog for your army/armies.. ??

Yes?
I mean,terrain is part of my hobby/games. Some of it can be bought ready-to-play. But some times I need to invest time building & painting stuff. Wether that's GW's stuff, someone else's, or disparate bitz from the hardware store/Walmarts toy aisles/local craft store is irrelevant.

I meant if you are actively in process of building and painting an army.. there's usually an actual unit that your army needs.. Could always do with one more XYZ etc..

I've been in the process of building & painting an army continuously for 30+ years. Oh, not the same army, & not just for 40k, or even GW games but....
And guess what? Our tables, be they the home tables or for the various shops, have still needed terrain. Basic stuff, more advanced stuff, specific stuff.... So now and then you just have to make the time & work on some terrain.

And if it's something that's applying directly to your army rules-wise (for example my Bad Moon Loonshrine in AoS for my goblins)? Then YES you will definitely spend the time building/painting it. Because it's part of your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

The loss of scratchbashed terrain in this hobby (well, what is immediately visible to a newer gamer) is one of the greatest losses out there. I don't want to play on the same board every time with same models over and over.

Eh... I've seen the downside to this too often. Terrain that's absolutely dreadful and its still the same boards with same terrain over and over.

Not saying this particular move is good, but 'scratchbashed' terrain has a real variety. And sadly, it tends to range between really poor (Chunk-cut Styrofoam vaguely daubed with a color to badly flocked blocks of wood with corners shaved off) and vaguely acceptable, but not much more.

That's because too many don't put the same effort into their terrain as they do their models.

On the other hand there's plenty of fantastic stuff out there as well.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Balancing thoughts.

By having datacards defining the exact rules for specific terrain pieces, it’ll reduce, if not eliminate entirely, arguments about what’s what.

So I can see some sense in them.

I can see my group using these terrain rules for exactly this reason. It makes using the new terrain system easier, and it also gives you a bunch of parameters for terrain / building sizing.

Will download the terrain .pdf, and then make and paint our own terrain for free. GW doesn't deserve any money from us, not until they actually finish releasing all the rules for this edition that should have been released on day 1.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
-SNIP-

Nice looking table there

I feel the same, the table should add to the game.

Most of the focus in this topic is on the GW official terrain with it's data sheets, since our group plays 5th edition or epic scale with 8th edition rules for simplicity it really doesn't affect us.

Back in the day GWs suggestion was to quarter the table fill one entirely with terrain then spread it across the table.

This is how some of my tables look with the majority of it being my own personal terrain.

INFINITY



DUST with mostly fantastic ESLO terrain



40K TAU/desert



battletech/epic scale 40K



warmachine/hordes with ESLO terrain

The only good thing is that it's not mandatory, but from what I've read, I bet that events at WHW (if there will ever be any in the future, lol) will enforce that.

Why it's bad:

*They feature newest terrain. This literally forces people to buy new terrain, because the older ones they have might have been built in different shapes.
*There are no boundaries of, say, how far the Engine Shed parts have to be apart. If there are none - this will eventually lead to waac arguments. If there are - old type terrain might not fit and people will have to buy new.
*How, on fething earth, are you supposed to carry 3 storey building alone? And, judging by point costs, you will have to bring like 3-4 of those to a larger game

And overall, this is just a dick move to sell more.

I'm sorry,

'Engine Shed?'

Those two pieces of a building that is clearly destroyed magically rebuild D3 wounds a turn if a guardsmen is standing inside them?

So we can now get Admech characters hiding behind a unit in cover repairing 3D3 wounds a turn because it's... Rubble?

Great addition to the game.

This actually makes their inspiring terrain make more sense... but terrain and bring it to the game declaring it inspiring and boom, free advantage?

That said as a guy with a 3d printer, a full size SUV and a bunch or terrain options its not going to be difficult to bring terrain with my army to make it match, just not going to claim anything that gives me an advantage for just matching terrain,

I do admit it is a little odd to be playign say a Craftworld vs Necrons game on a table full of imperium of man terrain or midevil looking stone ruins. Then again i have a home table and my FLGS also has a 3d printer and has made some really cool generic scifi modular terrain

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I'm sorry,

'Engine Shed?'

Those two pieces of a building that is clearly destroyed magically rebuild D3 wounds a turn if a guardsmen is standing inside them?

So we can now get Admech characters hiding behind a unit in cover repairing 3D3 wounds a turn because it's... Rubble?

Great addition to the game.

Apparently this random shed in the middle of nowhere has all the components you need to fix a leman russ, baneblade, valkarie or chimera.

Honestly it's no sillier than Leon in RE4 going out to the backwater of Europe and finding frag, flash and incendiary grenades in boxes within every home. Game logic mate, it makes less sense the more you analyse it.

Not only that, it can also repair wraithbone, or a flyer as it flies past at supersonic speed - as long as it's wings don't go too far out so it ends up not "wholly within" the footprint.

cody.d. wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I'm sorry,

'Engine Shed?'

Those two pieces of a building that is clearly destroyed magically rebuild D3 wounds a turn if a guardsmen is standing inside them?

So we can now get Admech characters hiding behind a unit in cover repairing 3D3 wounds a turn because it's... Rubble?

Great addition to the game.

Apparently this random shed in the middle of nowhere has all the components you need to fix a leman russ, baneblade, valkarie or chimera.

Honestly it's no sillier than Leon in RE4 going out to the backwater of Europe and finding frag, flash and incendiary grenades in boxes within every home. Game logic mate, it makes less sense the more you analyse it.

Everybody is secretly Orks at heart...

Just wait till there's a terrain piece that gives re-rolls of some sort. Or fuel pipes that autohitting weapons can plug into.

So you'll have images of necrons slapping lasgun batterys into their guns. Or Tau putting heavy bolter ammunition into drone weapons.

Then the wraithguard plug their D-Flamers into a promethium pipeline to fire harder or some nonsense.

I use these examples cause, well that happened in previous editions and we all know GW isn't always imaginative with it's special rules.

One of the pieces they showed off already does give reroll 1s to anything, as well as letting half the unit use grenades instead of only one model. Who knew that every random ruined ammo depo in the universe was well stocked with blight grenades!

Voss wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
They made a comment on the preview webcast along the lines of - "lots of clubs & tournaments struggle to have enough terrain", but that's not a problem I've ever come across.

I like the idea of theming terrain to your army (ruins with GSC graffiti or Ork barricades, for examples), but I'm not keen on bringing half a tables' worth of stuff with me.

Hmm. I usually have the opposite experience. The store or tournament not having enough terrain is normal.
But bringing having each player bring their own raises a lot of issues.

Yeah, I agree that a general lack of terrain to supply all the tables is depressingly common among the places I've played, but I also agree that bringing it yourself raises a whole host of problems.

When playing at home, we each tend to contribute part of the board's worth of terrain from our collection, some of us contributing more than others, but like taking that approach at the store is just something that I don't think I would subscribe to.

IMO, they should have presented the terrain cards as 'a new resource for players to use if they want' and it would have gone over reasonably well. If they want people to buy more terrain make these terrain card bits purchasable for points as part of an army.