Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Kroot are more of a model issue than gaunts/daemonettes tho.

If they were plastic I'm sure the rules would be at least "passable".

Kroot are plastic.

They're just kinda gakky plastic, and they don't kill space marines so the number of, whatever, deamonettes they can kill doesn't really matter.

Daemonettes are good because they can kill space marines passably. Intercessors still kill equivalent points of them of course, dont be silly, why would a mid-s high-ap dedicated melee-only unit work against a space marine with a 30" range rifle, but they work in overwhelming numbers.

Gants I dunno, I don't think they're actually good, so the comparison with gaunts seems a bit silly.

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


but I don't think DE are a non-functional army.

I don't think they're an army, let alone a functional one. I mean they're better off than Custodes, and some others but they're still hurting for datasheets. They feel more like a Edlar supplement/auxiliary. They need a lot of units, and quick.

They have a good number of units, what they need is to get rid of the stupid "units are subfaction locked" concept and more HQ options (just give them acces to bikes/skyboard/wings ffs).
And custodes IS a functioning army, idk where you get the idea that theyre not.

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


but I don't think DE are a non-functional army.

I don't think they're an army, let alone a functional one. I mean they're better off than Custodes, and some others but they're still hurting for datasheets. They feel more like a Edlar supplement/auxiliary. They need a lot of units, and quick.

I really hope that DE get some meaningful releases for their next codex.

Because - and I say this as a Necron player - I think they were far more in need of the truckload of new stuff Necrons got than Necrons were.

I think breaking the codex into the respective subfactions only served to highlight how anaemic it is. Because when you break it down like that, you realise that Kabal has basically 1 unit that isn't a vehicle, Cult has 2 units, plus a third that doesn't count as Cult even though only they can use it, and Coven has 2 units plus 2 monsters, all of which are stuck doing melee. Oh, and Mandrakes, Incubi and Scourges are just kind of floating around with no connection to anything else. I guess Incubi have Drazhar (though all he actually does is make them redundant) and Scourges could be rolled in with Kabal, but that still leaves Mandrakes stuck with no HQs and no connection to the rest of the army.

It feels less like a coherent codex and more like someone threw three half-finished mini-factions and 3 lone units together and called it a book.

 vipoid wrote:

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


but I don't think DE are a non-functional army.

I don't think they're an army, let alone a functional one. I mean they're better off than Custodes, and some others but they're still hurting for datasheets. They feel more like a Edlar supplement/auxiliary. They need a lot of units, and quick.

I really hope that DE get some meaningful releases for their next codex.

Because - and I say this as a Necron player - I think they were far more in need of the truckload of new stuff Necrons got than Necrons were.

I think breaking the codex into the respective subfactions only served to highlight how anaemic it is. Because when you break it down like that, you realise that Kabal has basically 1 unit that isn't a vehicle, Cult has 2 units, plus a third that doesn't count as Cult even though only they can use it, and Coven has 2 units plus 2 monsters, all of which are stuck doing melee. Oh, and Mandrakes, Incubi and Scourges are just kind of floating around with no connection to anything else. I guess Incubi have Drazhar (though all he actually does is make them redundant) and Scourges could be rolled in with Kabal, but that still leaves Mandrakes stuck with no HQs and no connection to the rest of the army.

It feels less like a coherent codex and more like someone threw three half-finished mini-factions and 3 lone units together and called it a book.

As a Marine player: if DE needs new releases more that you did, they need new releases way more than I did.

I hope it's DE as well, they need an overhaul more than anyone else, and I say that while also sitting on a new-to-me collection of Tyranids that are in a kind of woeful place too. Not the model range, that's ...fine, but the rules are not.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


They have a good number of units, what they need is to get rid of the stupid "units are subfaction locked" concept and more HQ options (just give them acces to bikes/skyboard/wings ffs).
And custodes IS a functioning army, idk where you get the idea that theyre not.

Outside of Forgeworld Custodes have a single HS and FA datasheet. Between Rule of Three and any kind of variety they're in a bad place.

Dark Eldar -as I said - are slightly better off, but still in a bad place for datasheets. They've got what two kits, 3 datasheets, for Heavy Support, none of them infantry? They shouldn't be a mirror image of Eldar, but they should have close to the same variety and flexibility - A couple infantry heavy weapon types like Reapers and/or Spiders, maybe a slave crewed/powered/moved Support Weapons/Artillery unit of some kind.

 vipoid wrote:

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


but I don't think DE are a non-functional army.

I don't think they're an army, let alone a functional one. I mean they're better off than Custodes, and some others but they're still hurting for datasheets. They feel more like a Edlar supplement/auxiliary. They need a lot of units, and quick.

I really hope that DE get some meaningful releases for their next codex.

Because - and I say this as a Necron player - I think they were far more in need of the truckload of new stuff Necrons got than Necrons were.

I think breaking the codex into the respective subfactions only served to highlight how anaemic it is. Because when you break it down like that, you realise that Kabal has basically 1 unit that isn't a vehicle, Cult has 2 units, plus a third that doesn't count as Cult even though only they can use it, and Coven has 2 units plus 2 monsters, all of which are stuck doing melee. Oh, and Mandrakes, Incubi and Scourges are just kind of floating around with no connection to anything else. I guess Incubi have Drazhar (though all he actually does is make them redundant) and Scourges could be rolled in with Kabal, but that still leaves Mandrakes stuck with no HQs and no connection to the rest of the army.

It feels less like a coherent codex and more like someone threw three half-finished mini-factions and 3 lone units together and called it a book.

I mean, thats what happened in AoS when they divided whole armies into 3-4 mini factions. Normally they are extremely anemic because... they weren't designed to be played that way. The problem is that Dark Eldar, all three parts of their codex have much more personality, gameplay differences and disparity that those 3 are probably more worthy of a proper codex than BA, DA and SW ever were. So the proper way to separate them is to revamp the three parts and make them proper armies or keep them together like always.

Custodes with FW are perfectly fine TBH, the problem is when tournaments ban FW and you end up with an army not worth playing.

Breton wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


They have a good number of units, what they need is to get rid of the stupid "units are subfaction locked" concept and more HQ options (just give them acces to bikes/skyboard/wings ffs).
And custodes IS a functioning army, idk where you get the idea that theyre not.

Outside of Forgeworld Custodes have a single HS and FA datasheet. Between Rule of Three and any kind of variety they're in a bad place.

Dark Eldar -as I said - are slightly better off, but still in a bad place for datasheets. They've got what two kits, 3 datasheets, for Heavy Support, none of them infantry? They shouldn't be a mirror image of Eldar, but they should have close to the same variety and flexibility - A couple infantry heavy weapon types like Reapers and/or Spiders, maybe a slave crewed/powered/moved Support Weapons/Artillery unit of some kind.

Forgeworld units are perfectly legal and part of the army, i don't see why you're "not counting" them in the models they have available.
Admech, thousand sons, deathguard and demons don't have Heavy support infantry either.

DE definitely needs help, hopefully theyre gonna make it a single army again and add some parts that they are missing.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:



Forgeworld units are perfectly legal and part of the army,

They're also generally more expensive, get less support, and are not carried in the stores. No army should have to count on Forgeworld. Forgeworld should be dessert, not the main course.

i don't see why you're "not counting" them in the models they have available.
Admech, thousand sons, deathguard and demons don't have Heavy support infantry either.

And they should get some. Every army should have most of the basic archetypal units, and at least two significantly different ways to list-build and play.

DE definitely needs help, hopefully theyre gonna make it a single army again and add some parts that they are missing.

Either that or really roll all the Eldar into one and let them synergize effectively. Or both. Both would be best. I liked the Ynarri gimmick, but they didn't really deliver on it.

Breton wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:



Forgeworld units are perfectly legal and part of the army,

They're also generally more expensive, get less support, and are not carried in the stores. No army should have to count on Forgeworld. Forgeworld should be dessert, not the main course.

they get the same amount of support and the main studio writes their rules now. Excluding them because of their price is ridiculous when you look at the $$price of things like mekguns.
You got a point with the "not carried in stores"

i don't see why you're "not counting" them in the models they have available.
Admech, thousand sons, deathguard and demons don't have Heavy support infantry either.

And they should get some. Every army should have most of the basic archetypal units, and at least two significantly different ways to list-build and play.

Not every army functions the same way. Heavy support for demons would make more sense if they were hulking beasts or large constructs (soul grinders, chariots). And the armies i listed do have significantly different options.

Also, for deathguard it would litterally go against the fluff. They don't use heavy weapons on infantry, its against their whole combat ideology.

DE definitely needs help, hopefully theyre gonna make it a single army again and add some parts that they are missing.

Either that or really roll all the Eldar into one and let them synergize effectively. Or both. Both would be best. I liked the Ynarri gimmick, but they didn't really deliver on it.

the_scotsman wrote:
Gants I dunno, I don't think they're actually good, so the comparison with gaunts seems a bit silly.

I think saying its *good* would be to go too far - but there are hints its the more competitive way to play Tyranids (which still isn't great - but still).

With that said I'm not really sure what Tau players are trying at the moment. I feel Triptide and drones and commanders just doesn't give you enough bulk to hold (never mind reclaim) objectives but just about everything else is obviously overcosted for what it does. 60-100 kroot might... serve a purpose.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Breton wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


They have a good number of units, what they need is to get rid of the stupid "units are subfaction locked" concept and more HQ options (just give them acces to bikes/skyboard/wings ffs).
And custodes IS a functioning army, idk where you get the idea that theyre not.

Outside of Forgeworld Custodes have a single HS and FA datasheet. Between Rule of Three and any kind of variety they're in a bad place.

Dark Eldar -as I said - are slightly better off, but still in a bad place for datasheets. They've got what two kits, 3 datasheets, for Heavy Support, none of them infantry? They shouldn't be a mirror image of Eldar, but they should have close to the same variety and flexibility - A couple infantry heavy weapon types like Reapers and/or Spiders, maybe a slave crewed/powered/moved Support Weapons/Artillery unit of some kind.

Forgeworld units are perfectly legal and part of the army, i don't see why you're "not counting" them in the models they have available.
Admech, thousand sons, deathguard and demons don't have Heavy support infantry either.

DE definitely needs help, hopefully theyre gonna make it a single army again and add some parts that they are missing.

I predict such wild levels of support as:

-one (1) new Lelith Hesperax model, still has the same core statline whereby the single best solo combatant duelist in an army of high-speed, low-strength one on one duelists gets an attacks stat of 4 to go along with her big huge beefy strength stat of 3.

She can nearly kill a WHOLE TACTICAL MARINE in combat!!!!

and then

-a new codex, with a super exciting new rule whereby you get to pick 2 extremely minor effects if your detachment shares all FACTION keywords.

And theyll forget to include mercenary units in that rule for the first 2 weeks.

Problemo....a-solvedo.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

they get the same amount of support and the main studio writes their rules now.

The last FAQ was in July. During what looks like a giant game wide roll out.

Not every army functions the same way. Heavy support for demons would make more sense if they were hulking beasts or large constructs (soul grinders, chariots). And the armies i listed do have significantly different options.

Also, for deathguard it would litterally go against the fluff. They don't use heavy weapons on infantry, its against their whole combat ideology.

Every army should have most of the basic archetypal units

Most of. Nor do they necessarily have to have heavy weapons - They could be assault like Eradicators. It could be some sort of combination disease/decay effect + "normal" guns. The new take on Aux Grenade Launchers with a "Rust Grenade". There are a number of ways to get the archetype without using a cookie cutter.

Yeah, at the risk of infuriating many players, i quite like the concept of Ynnari but i wouldnt want to see all elf codex consolidated into a single "Ynnari" codex. IMO they should just let you pick Ynnari as a "chapter tactic" which would give you their specific rules and let you take any Eldar in the same detachment. The abuse of the early 8th ynnari was the multiple actions and the inter faction buffs (doom/guide). Fore them to take Ynnari stuff only and it would be perfectly fine.

I still want my DE/Craftworlds/Clowns to be separated in their respective codex but their playstyles refined and modernised.

I'd like to see them all in one codex, but playable as seperate or together. I'd like to see both playable seperately, I'd like to see both of them get some truly interesting/entertaining benefits and drawbacks of being played together.

Ynnari could be a nice supplement once Harlequins, Craftworlds and Drukhari get their Codexes.

The fact that they are releasing a new Lelith model and that Lorewise she's pretty much with Yvraine now... it's a hint that something is happening.

Tyel wrote:
Hmmm. Its the usual debate.

Tau could do with a fundamental re-write to make their codex more interesting.

But I think you could fix them by just cutting the points significantly. Its still lacking interaction and possibly *fun* - and the list would probably be "triptide but now with the points necessary for other units to go claim some points" - but I suspect it would work.

Spot on. They could even lower the points costs of everything but riptides and shield drones. Ghostkeels stand out as one of the worst costed units, they are also a cool mech suit. They could drop the points on gun drones, marker drones and all the specialist drones. They could drop the points on Devilfish and Hammerheads. They could drop the points on Strike Teams, Breacher Teams and Pathfinder Teams.

I am now wondering what they'll do with the Riptide overcharge to get a 3++ invulnerable, as they seem to be doing away with them. Does anything in the SM codex have a 3++ now?

EightFoldPath wrote:

I am now wondering what they'll do with the Riptide overcharge to get a 3++ invulnerable, as they seem to be doing away with them. Does anything in the SM codex have a 3++ now?

Possibly go with the same change storm shields got - 4++ and +1 to armour saving rolls?

EightFoldPath wrote:
I am now wondering what they'll do with the Riptide overcharge to get a 3++ invulnerable, as they seem to be doing away with them. Does anything in the SM codex have a 3++ now?

A relic armor can activate a 3++ once per game and even then it only lasts for a phase. Not round. Phase.

EightFoldPath wrote:

I am now wondering what they'll do with the Riptide overcharge to get a 3++ invulnerable, as they seem to be doing away with them. Does anything in the SM codex have a 3++ now?

Hopefully they just dump it.

EightFoldPath wrote:


I am now wondering what they'll do with the Riptide overcharge to get a 3++ invulnerable, as they seem to be doing away with them. Does anything in the SM codex have a 3++ now?

The Ultima Storm Shields on Victrix Guard are still 3++ but that's about it.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Hopefully they just dump it.

Agreed. 3++ was a crutch to make Terminators viable for the first time since 2nd edition. It is not needed anymore and its absence makes the game better.

I think Tau could be an easy fix and not ruin the army asthetics (and I do think GW does care about having a unified "look" for an army, which might be the reason they haven't expanded on Kroot or Vespid).

Just have them design a melee suit for a new auxiliary race.. They could give the suit a different "shape", like maybe 4 arms or something, but keep the same angular (anime) design. Now you've got a new auxiliary unit, it can get into melee on objectives, and it maintains the look of the army. Easy peasy.

The problem of Tau is removing the hability to abandon combat with your fly units and shoot. When all you do is shoot, and the game is about claiming objetives in the middle, the moment something touches your expensive shooting units everything dies.

Nerf Tau shooting, give them movility, and allow for some response to being charged and tagged in meele that is something more than dark souls's "YOU DIED" message.

Plastic and usable Krootox Riders would also help a little. But as others have said, if orks can be a shooting army with BS+5 I don't undersand why by now Tau don't have a support auxiliary race or suits that at least work in meele.

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..

Just the general state of the game in 9th - the game rewards you for taking objectives in the center field but they didn't bother to give Tau any meaningful ways to do that. So Tau should just be happy to wait around for a few years while their army isn't functional in the current edition... it's pathetic.

And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

I dunno, I could come up with some kind of ability maybe where after a unit you want to designate as kind of an armored battle-suit that seizes the objectives before the troops go to hold it, they could possibly shoot, and then hve some sort of post-shoot movement to make up for the fact that as a faction, Tau do not get the free movement inherent to charging.

proably but would it be something quick and easy to FAQ into the army? proably not.

I dunno, we've got time to write completely new datasheets abilities etc for every single sub-faction marine unit to make sure that space wolves players don't have to wait an extra *checks notes* 2 months between the update they got in april and their new codex coming in november or so.

It's cool for every CSM faction to play 1W marines vs 2W marines though, that's fine, and we certainly don't need to do anything to make Tau function in 9th ed between now and 2021.

Or anybody fething else, apparently. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody gets to wait while they slowly, laboriously update the current meta-dominant faction. Again.

without a Index many of BA, SW etc armies are literally unplayable. I don't mean "Really really bad like greyknights before PA literally unplayable" I mean literally as in "the dataslates for a lot of their units have dissappered" unplayable. I don't think it's reasonable to tell a DA player "yeah technicly you can't use half your models for the next 3 months"

Breton wrote:

Either that or really roll all the Eldar into one and let them synergize effectively. Or both. Both would be best. I liked the Ynarri gimmick, but they didn't really deliver on it.

Yeah, that would give me a really good push to find another hobby.

 harlokin wrote:

Breton wrote:

Either that or really roll all the Eldar into one and let them synergize effectively. Or both. Both would be best. I liked the Ynarri gimmick, but they didn't really deliver on it.

Yeah, that would give me a really good push to find another hobby.

depends how they did it, if they put all the units into one codex, and presented it as a "you can play eldar, dark eldar or yannari with one book now. if you play CWE these are your rules and restrictions, if dark eldar these are etc" it could work out alright. then put out a supplement for each that dives into more nitty gritty.

Eldar share literally 0 units, theres no reason whatsoever to consolidate them. Marines are an exception because they share a ton of units.

BrianDavion wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Breton wrote:

Either that or really roll all the Eldar into one and let them synergize effectively. Or both. Both would be best. I liked the Ynarri gimmick, but they didn't really deliver on it.

Yeah, that would give me a really good push to find another hobby.

depends how they did it, if they put all the units into one codex, and presented it as a "you can play eldar, dark eldar or yannari with one book now. if you play CWE these are your rules and restrictions, if dark eldar these are etc" it could work out alright. then put out a supplement for each that dives into more nitty gritty.

Of course...
Only red/green/black/grey marines need books of their own because they are so original and different from each other...

There is as much similarity aesthetically and fluff-wise between a guardian and a kabalite as there is between a chaos spiky power armoured marine and a non spiky blue marine..

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..

Just the general state of the game in 9th - the game rewards you for taking objectives in the center field but they didn't bother to give Tau any meaningful ways to do that. So Tau should just be happy to wait around for a few years while their army isn't functional in the current edition... it's pathetic.

And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

I dunno, I could come up with some kind of ability maybe where after a unit you want to designate as kind of an armored battle-suit that seizes the objectives before the troops go to hold it, they could possibly shoot, and then hve some sort of post-shoot movement to make up for the fact that as a faction, Tau do not get the free movement inherent to charging.

proably but would it be something quick and easy to FAQ into the army? proably not.

I dunno, we've got time to write completely new datasheets abilities etc for every single sub-faction marine unit to make sure that space wolves players don't have to wait an extra *checks notes* 2 months between the update they got in april and their new codex coming in november or so.

It's cool for every CSM faction to play 1W marines vs 2W marines though, that's fine, and we certainly don't need to do anything to make Tau function in 9th ed between now and 2021.

Or anybody fething else, apparently. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody gets to wait while they slowly, laboriously update the current meta-dominant faction. Again.

without a Index many of BA, SW etc armies are literally unplayable. I don't mean "Really really bad like greyknights before PA literally unplayable" I mean literally as in "the dataslates for a lot of their units have dissappered" unplayable. I don't think it's reasonable to tell a DA player "yeah technicly you can't use half your models for the next 3 months"

That's not the problem, though. The problem there isn't the existence of a BA/SW/DA index; it's that even with their antiquated rules release model, so staggeringly little effort seems to be going into the other armies that they can't do something as simple as hike a points cost by 3 and change a wound number via FAQ for CSM/TS/DG in the meantime, let alone update Tau into something that plays 9th reasonably well.

CSM/TS/DG don't want an index, they just want their goddamn 10,000 year veterans who sold their souls to Chaos to have something to show for it besides unburdening themselves from the weight of that darn bothersome second wound.

BrianDavion wrote:
proably but would it be something quick and easy to FAQ into the army? proably not.

I don't care if it's "quick and easy," GW put all this damn effort into a new edition, they should have put that work in too. Apparently you think players should pay top dollar for half-assed work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I've got a CSM army and it annoyed the hell out of me too. I think the LSM codex shows signs GW is reckongizing the issues, scouts being moved to elites forces marines to take well.. power armored marines as their core troop. I doubt GW'll do anything like move cultists to elites but I'd be willing to bet GW won't make them core.

Except that the price hike to cultists shows that GW would rather nerf cultists than make CSM a viable unit. GW doesn't care if CSM suck as a faction, in fact in many ways it's a feature, as it will allow little Timmy to stomp them and feel good about it, but they don't want the internal balance of the faction to favor cultists.

Tyel wrote:

But I think you could fix them by just cutting the points significantly.

Only in the sense that to fix them you would have to make them so overwhelmingly powerful that they'd make Marines look like Genestealer Cults by comparison.

Tau are the most binary army in the game save for maybe knights (who also suck the balls). To work in ninth with just point cuts they'd have to be able to blast the enemy army off the board and cripple their scoring power completely to make up for the fact that they have no capability to flip objectives. Straight buffing the most cancer army in the game (yes my friends even more than Marines) save perhaps knights is not the solution (at least not if they want to hard cap ppm at 5 points or higher, I guess to give them more melee punch they could make kroot laughably cheap to push people off of objectives or just swarm them without dying but even then I doubt it would work lol).

I think they need to rework the 9th edition missions to fix some of that. But also, nerfing Marines would help just about everyone.

Who knows though, maybe GW for the first time ever is going to release a balanced edition where when everyone gets their codex we are relatively close in power, and intercessors are no longer punching genestealers to death with one hand while blasting Tau fire warriors with the other.