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That's interesting that the app is controlling the dungeon master elements of the game, and possibly not a bad idea.

Have always struggled in games to find someone who wants to play the 'dark lord' or whatever it was called and especially for campaigns, although they had made an effort in that regard, there wasn't as much for that player to do.

I'm hoping the gameplay and rules will be a little bit tighter for this version too. There were a couple of loop-holes in 2nd edition, and we had a few games that ended up dragging on 3-4hrs and into early hours of the morning when the game reached an impasse and especially when a couple of the players are involved in asshat shenanigans !

 endtransmission wrote:
There's now an info page up on the FFG website: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2020/10/22/descent-legends-of-the-dark/

Interesting to note this statement for those that are annoyed about this being 3rd edition Descent. It is not, it is apparently a different game, so can we get the thread title changed please?

FFG wrote:Is this the third edition of Descent: Journeys in the Dark?
Descent: Legends of the Dark is not the third edition of Descent: Journeys in the Dark. Although it shares the realm of Terrinoth and the top-level identity as a dungeon-crawling board game indicated by the Descent title, we see Legends of the Dark as a new addition to our catalog, rather than a third edition of Journeys in the Dark.

Although Journeys in the Dark featured the Road to Legend companion app, that game was always designed as a competitive experience, pitting one to four hero players against a single overlord player. Legends of the Dark harnesses its integrated companion app to deliver a cooperative game from the very beginning, freeing you and your friends to fully focus on becoming the heroes of Terrinoth.

I only included the (aka 3rd edition) next to the official title because that's what people in the community have been referring to it as, though I did hear even before this that it is not officially a 3rd edition. It is a miniatures board game in the same playstyle as previous Descents, but it is a sister product line, not really the 3rd edition.

endtransmission wrote:There's now an info page up on the FFG website: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2020/10/22/descent-legends-of-the-dark/

Interesting to note this statement for those that are annoyed about this being 3rd edition Descent. It is not, it is apparently a different game, so can we get the thread title changed please?

I have no issue with the thread title changing but I'm not sure that I buy that spin. I suppose we'll see if it really is a "different" game and they keep the "other" game in production and whether or not in actual practice they scratch different itches.

Pacific wrote:Going against opinion here but I admire that they're trying to do something new and the app-driven format does give the designers and developers a lot more tools for them to use - and new experiences for the players too.

And how many more of Dungeon Crawler version XI do we actually need? The market is getting pretty crowded right now not least with Heroquest and the like making a comeback, it might be that FFG felt they had to try and do something new.

Well, I suppose the most consumer friendly response would be to make a working app-less version to be played traditionally offline. I would hope that it would be a free downloadable version but given that its FFG I wouldn't rule out a pricey physical expansion to work that functionality back in.

 Pacific wrote:
That's interesting that the app is controlling the dungeon master elements of the game, and possibly not a bad idea.

Have always struggled in games to find someone who wants to play the 'dark lord' or whatever it was called and especially for campaigns, although they had made an effort in that regard, there wasn't as much for that player to do.

I'm hoping the gameplay and rules will be a little bit tighter for this version too. There were a couple of loop-holes in 2nd edition, and we had a few games that ended up dragging on 3-4hrs and into early hours of the morning when the game reached an impasse and especially when a couple of the players are involved in asshat shenanigans !

Shadows of Brimstone and Star Saga both are fully coop (capable, in Star Saga’s case) with card decks playing the part of the dungeon master/controlling the monsters.

Loved the use of the app for Imperial Assault, in fact I would say we would have never gotten to play without it.

That said, I never converted over from Descent to Descent 2 - didn't feel like rebuying a game I already had - and quite a bit of stuff for it already.

And they can dispute it being 3rd ed all they want; it is a new edition as they state the 2E stuff won't work in the new release. If I still didn't have my 1E Descent stuff laying about, I might have dipped my toes into it - though I'm leery if the game can ONLY be played via app. If it can still be played without it (like, say Gloomhaven), I think it would be fine.

I’m really disappointed with the tiles in this one as they are just so plan and featureless. FFG tiles usually have loads of great details which is missing here. Not really sold on the 3D aspect either.

I don’t mind App based games and enjoy the three I already have from FFG especially Mansions if Madness 2nd edition. The price looks very hefty for this one though.

The price is ridiculously high when compared with the competition, and you can't call it Descent to profit from name recognition and at the same time claim that it's not a new edition of the game (plus, new editions do change completely the rules sometimes already, so...).

I have enjoyed MoM 2nd edition thoroughly, though. It is a great game and miles ahead from the (IMHO) dreadful first edition.

Seen a lot of nay saying around the app driven nature of the game but having played a LOT of mansions of madness 2nd edition, i absolutely loved that game and the app made it for me.

Personally when I am playing a board game the last thing I want to do is get the digital sphere involved. I want to get AWAY from that for at least a few hours.

> Seen a lot of nay saying around the app driven nature of the game but having played a LOT of mansions of madness 2nd edition, i absolutely loved that game and the app made it for me.

See? FFG no doubt has the sales figures of Middle Earth, and download and possibly usage stats for IA and D2E to justify an app.

> Personally when I am playing a board game the last thing I want to do is get the digital sphere involved. I want to get AWAY from that for at least a few hours.

Okay. Fine. Go play one of too many other non-app generic fantasy dice-chucking dungeon crawlers on the market. I think there's at least two on KS right now.

BTW, A deck of cards won't replace an app when it's revealing quest-specific rooms -- although a table will. Advanced Heroquest used a table that increased the chances of finding the boss room as you explored more random rooms. Even then, an app does a better job creating a room, including a quest room, with multiple random elements (eg. monster, treasure, terrain features, etc.). Whether or not that is all that necessary is YMMV, but it still increases replay value, when two boss rooms may play differently.

That said, the Cult of the New was around even before KS, and games didn't last on the table for very long. Gloomhaven cut down setup time with a scenario booklet which had the maps printed on them (and this allowed both unique one-use maps and quest-specific art), rather than use generic tiles (a holdover from RPG generic tile sets, I presume). Sure, some BGG'ers *say* they want replay value, but I'd like to see some guy with only five games in his gaming closet.

D2E still works. While Sea of Blood wasn't received as well on BGG, with Road to Legend, that's still two campaign's worth of content on top of everything else.

 ced1106 wrote:
Sure, some BGG'ers *say* they want replay value, but I'd like to see some guy with only five games in his gaming closet.

Sure, and because of that, it may take a while before the game gets dragged out of the closet again for a replay. And I'd like it if that replay years from now wouldn't rely on some app that may or may not be available at the time.


Moreover, I completely agree about keeping digital things away from the game. I'm okay with it for post-game admin or occasionally quickly looking up rules in a digital document (simply because it can be faster, and thus interrupts the game less), but other than that I'll take tactile physical elements every time.

> Moreover, I completely agree about keeping digital things away from the game. I'm okay with it for post-game admin or occasionally quickly looking up rules in a digital document (simply because it can be faster, and thus interrupts the game less), but other than that I'll take tactile physical elements every time.

Yahbut, is there any reason why THIS game has to accommodate non-app players??? Does EVERY dungeoncrawler has to fit YOUR needs when OTHERS want something else???

Again, it's not like we don't have other dungeoncrawlers to choose from.

Reminds me of how, on BGG, you'll find someone who wants EVERY game solo-playable. This, despite that solo and coop rules were once bolt-on rulesets that were inferior play to an actual opponent.

Look you, any game can be made solo-playable. Even chess. All you need is some graph paper, a deck of cards, and thorough knowledge of the Chinese Remainder Theorem.

Are you suggesting this is too high a hurdle for FFG? They’re leaving dollar on the table!

 ced1106 wrote:
> Moreover, I completely agree about keeping digital things away from the game. I'm okay with it for post-game admin or occasionally quickly looking up rules in a digital document (simply because it can be faster, and thus interrupts the game less), but other than that I'll take tactile physical elements every time.

Yahbut, is there any reason why THIS game has to accommodate non-app players??? Does EVERY dungeoncrawler has to fit YOUR needs when OTHERS want something else???

Again, it's not like we don't have other dungeoncrawlers to choose from.

Reminds me of how, on BGG, you'll find someone who wants EVERY game solo-playable. This, despite that solo and coop rules were once bolt-on rulesets that were inferior play to an actual opponent.

FFG don't have to make something I like, of course they don't. But if they want to sell this to me, and people with similar views, the app-related parts of the game should be optional (or absent).
I didn't say this should not be made. Merely that I won't be buying it, if the digital elements are integral to the gameplay.

 ced1106 wrote:


Yahbut, is there any reason why THIS game has to accommodate non-app players??? Does EVERY dungeoncrawler has to fit YOUR needs when OTHERS want something else???

Again, it's not like we don't have other dungeoncrawlers to choose from.

Reminds me of how, on BGG, you'll find someone who wants EVERY game solo-playable. This, despite that solo and coop rules were once bolt-on rulesets that were inferior play to an actual opponent.

Honestly, I don't think I've seen anyone suggest that this game specifically NEEDS to not have an app. I have seen plenty of people say they won't buy it because it requires an app though. It is honestly neither new, nor interesting, and it only helps the game to stand out from the crown in as much as it annoys some of its potential customers.

That aside people are allowed to voice their opinion on things. If someone being negative about a game we know almost nothing about upsets you that much then maybe you shouldn't be reading forum posts about it.

Finally, to borrow your argument, there are plenty of app driven or app integrated dungeon crawlers out there now, do we really need another one?

> Finally, to borrow your argument, there are plenty of app driven or app integrated dungeon crawlers out there now, do we really need another one?

Ask me this question again, but replace it with "dice" and "skill checks".

 Zethnar wrote:
Finally, to borrow your argument, there are plenty of app driven or app integrated dungeon crawlers out there now, do we really need another one?

Are there? Which ones, if you don't mind me asking? Also, how many in comparison with non-app driven ones? I think I know some of the big names, but I'm not very knowledgeable on the rest.

I'll be honest--setup and teardown time are what keeps me away from some games. I love gloomhaven but without the 3rd party apps I would have played it much less.

When I see Kickstarters now that advertise 600+ cards of many different types as a feature, it actually turns me off.

> I'll be honest--setup and teardown time are what keeps me away from some games. I love gloomhaven but without the 3rd party apps I would have played it much less.

IIRC, Descent 1E was one of the first dungeoncrawlers where the map was set up before gameplay, so, no, you are quite right. If setup before a game deterred gamers, just think how setup *during* gameplay slowed down things. Advanced HeroQuest had a random map generator that build the map as you played, and it did take time to find the map tile.

Gloomhaven's map books are increasingly popular. Most scenarios are double-spread pages, and some scenarios span two books. Not only are the maps pre-set, but the maps show where the monsters start, and have the scenario rules on the same page as the maps. Since the maps aren't generic tiles, the maps can have special features printed on them, different shapes, different art, etc. and less, well, generic, than GH maps. The designer said that GH has tiles because he wanted gamers the ability to make custom maps, but I think most gamers have enough content in the box.

HeroQuest's board, I think, also was good map design. Sure, you had the rooms printed on the board, but by placing a door on a different room or terrain feature in a different part of the room, the scenario could change quite a bit. Also, the board gave an illusion of hugeness, since, as a young child, you could imagine every room occupied with a terrain feature and group of monsters. The quests only used maybe 1/4 of the rooms, effectively still keeping the map unknown. In the picture, give it a good look to see how few rooms were actually used, yet the board still gives a sense of being quite large.






> When I see Kickstarters now that advertise 600+ cards of many different types as a feature, it actually turns me off.

Even before KS, we had FFG's Arkham Horror. No, you didn't have to have all of these decks on the board at the same time, but many a BGG'er were put off by the decks they did have to play with!

The difference between a game using app to help gaining time with the game system and another who needs an app for that game system to work is that the first one can be played without the app, but not the second one. You're completely dependant of the app in the end, making the boardgame components totally useless without it.

That's why I'm not attracted to this version of Descent : it's clear the game won't work without the app, and you don't know how much time it will be available after support for the game ends. That's why I compared it with Legend of Zagor : once the digital device stops working, you can't play the game anymore.

Well, let's not forget those of us who have about ten or twenty years of unplayed game sessions in the gaming closet. I think I have an used copy of Chainsaw Warrior I haven't played yet.

Wonder if a fan will make a D3E downgrade kit in eight years...!

 Albertorius wrote:

 Zethnar wrote:
Finally, to borrow your argument, there are plenty of app driven or app integrated dungeon crawlers out there now, do we really need another one?

Are there? Which ones, if you don't mind me asking? Also, how many in comparison with non-app driven ones? I think I know some of the big names, but I'm not very knowledgeable on the rest.

Just this year there was Erune and Dungeon Universalis (which uses an app to generate random dungeons as you explore them, as well as character management etc.), there's FFG's collection of app-integrated games (Descent, New Descent, Mansions of Madness, Journeys in Middle Earth, and Imperial Assault), Middara has an app that reads the quest text for you, and Folklore has an assistant app, as does Sword & Sorcery.

Granted some of these aren't required to play the game, but there's at least 7 games there with playable content locked behind a required app. I'm sure there would be more if I actually wanted to put in some proper research.

As I said, it's not a new or particularly innovative mechanic.

The only ones you’ve mentioned above that require the app to play are all from FFG. While many games might use an app and assist you in playing the game, so far FFGs app all are fully integrated, making it impossible to play without it.

Like the VCR games of old. Eventually all of these app driven games will be filling up thrift store shelves for those who still have a smart device from 40 years ago.

Easy pass for me, that price for what you get is ludicrous.

 ced1106 wrote:
Well, let's not forget those of us who have about ten or twenty years of unplayed game sessions in the gaming closet. I think I have an used copy of Chainsaw Warrior I haven't played yet.

Wonder if a fan will make a D3E downgrade kit in eight years...!

That's the point of boardgames : you can take one from 10 or 20 years ago and play it.

This version of Descent ? Tough luck to do that. I doubt you'll keep your old phone using that app for that long...not even talking about the app being long gone in a few years.

Bet no fan will make a D3E downgrade in eight years...mainly because it's too much work and there is no guarantee he'll have all the tools needed to recreate the version with the app, since all the rules in the app will certainly be unavailable at that time.

But hey, I'm sure it can be enjoyable to play as long as it lasts. I had great times with Legend of Zagor in my young time, when it was still working. It's just that kind of product is not made to last, clearly.


Another thing I'm weary with app dependant boardgames is that I'm not sure if the game will ask me to be constantly "online" with the app...or if it will ask me to make a registered account with a fee to use it. Or what happens if there are bugs in the app keeping you from playing the game ? Or if it is unavailable online for whatever reason when you want to play a game ? Not sure FFG will fix it that fast. There are so many ways FFG can feth it up, IMHO.

 Zethnar wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Zethnar wrote:
Finally, to borrow your argument, there are plenty of app driven or app integrated dungeon crawlers out there now, do we really need another one?

Are there? Which ones, if you don't mind me asking? Also, how many in comparison with non-app driven ones? I think I know some of the big names, but I'm not very knowledgeable on the rest.

Just this year there was Erune and Dungeon Universalis (which uses an app to generate random dungeons as you explore them, as well as character management etc.), there's FFG's collection of app-integrated games (Descent, New Descent, Mansions of Madness, Journeys in Middle Earth, and Imperial Assault), Middara has an app that reads the quest text for you, and Folklore has an assistant app, as does Sword & Sorcery.

Granted some of these aren't required to play the game, but there's at least 7 games there with playable content locked behind a required app. I'm sure there would be more if I actually wanted to put in some proper research.

As I said, it's not a new or particularly innovative mechanic.

Thanks for the rundown, appreciated

From the ones you list, it appears that Erune, MoM2nd edition and Journeys in Middle Earth are the only ones where an external app is required, whereas for the rest is an add on for additional game modes/stuff, right? I think there's also Imperial Assault, where you have a cooperative mode too.

That makes it five, counting the new Descent, four of them from FFG, versus however many that don't use an app whatsoever for anything. I am not sure how many that is, but I guess maybe ten times as many?

The ones that just have apps for ease of use I wouldn't really count, because it's something that probably should be happening anyways.

Honestly, I think that whether or not the new Descent allows for no app play won't have much if any impact on dungeon crawler lovers' options, as I believe it is already a very saturated market.

Personally, I liked MoM 2nd edition a whole lot, and I would be interested on something like that to play with my boardgamer friends, but this specific game is, for me, way too expensive for what it is.

Plus, I find the board and illustrations quite ugly, especially compared with the previous Descent games.

As to it not being particularly innovative... well, not having it would be even less so, wouldn't it? ^_^. I tend to feel that "innovative" is usually overrated.

 Albertorius wrote:
From the ones you list, it appears that Erune, MoM2nd edition and Journeys in Middle Earth are the only ones where an external app is required, whereas for the rest is an add on for additional game modes/stuff, right? I think there's also Imperial Assault, where you have a cooperative mode too.

The app is definitely not required to play Imperial Assault, but it does have some material exclusive to it.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
From the ones you list, it appears that Erune, MoM2nd edition and Journeys in Middle Earth are the only ones where an external app is required, whereas for the rest is an add on for additional game modes/stuff, right? I think there's also Imperial Assault, where you have a cooperative mode too.

The app is definitely not required to play Imperial Assault, but it does have some material exclusive to it.

Same as the one for Descent 2nd edition then, I think.

> Bet no fan will make a D3E downgrade in eight years...

No, a downgrade would just be statting the D3E monsters and heroes to a D2E version. I've seen someone take the entire Reaper Bones I core line and generate Savage World stats for them. Several BGG'ers have created Gloomhaven campaigns and character classes, including graphic design. I've also seen rewrites of Advanced Heroquest. Myself, I've written 1000 Cosmic Encounter powers and 500 Wiz-War cards, not to mention a CCG website. Not that hard to generate fan content, although playtesting may be a different matter. (I heard that, at least at one time, WizKids doesn't do that with HeroClix.)

> Another thing I'm weary with app dependant boardgames is that I'm not sure if the game will ask me to be constantly "online" with the app...or if it will ask me to make a registered account with a fee to use it. Or what happens if there are bugs in the app keeping you from playing the game ?

Good points. I just watched a YouTube video how smart televisions take your viewing data and send it to various companies. Youtube itself already tracks what videos you watch on each device you own.

FFG, btw, had an updgrade kit from 1E to 2E for all its 1E content, including promotional figures. So it's still possible that 3E components will have an upgrade to 4E. (Only possible, since, so far, no mention of 2E to not-3E-but-it-is.)

Oh, and after losing -- er, misplacing -- my tablet three times today, I'm not sure about that $275 price tag.

EDIT: Clayton on BGG. "Also, one reason why Asmodee started their own digital studio, rather than license projects out to unreliable 3rd parties, was because of all the shovelware mobile adaptations being dropped from the stores due to lack of support from the author. You can still get (and buy DLC) for Road to Legend, MoM, and even XCOM long after the physical board games are no longer in print, because this company understands what it would mean to kill the software and spoil the product for everyone who did buy it. As a result, the reality is that the opposite "problem" exists - there are several free apps floating around that require a board game to use, but the physical components are no longer for sale."

EDIT: Another BGG'er posted how he's getting tired of doing the research for yet another $150+ game. Same here. I think there are quite a few assumptions what the app will do, without actual knowledge of what it will do. We won't know until the reviews -- and we won't know how much support Asmodee / FFG will provide -- until months from now. Of course, I doubt reviews will overcome app-requirement and sticker shock, not to mention conventional deal-breakers such as theme, game mechanics, etc. For myself, any high-priced dungeoncrawler that uses a dice pool *really* has to stand out before I'll get off the fence (and not make a purchase).

I actually like the new art! (except maybe that weird looking elf - a bit too emaciated for my elfiness tastes)

But I'm put off by the weird looking 3d board. Too gimmicky! (everyone's got their thing to complain about, and I hadn't seen that one yet...) I'm also not that into app driven games, this is expensive, and dammit it IS third edition Descent no matter what they say!

This is definitely a wait (a year, maybe two, but more likely until it goes on fire-sale) and see type game.