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 Leth wrote:
I feel like the proteus kill team is the “gap filler” for your list. They are there to fill whatever role is left from everything else.

Indeed. The unit as a whole is super flexible and can be kitted to do nearly anything that you need it to depending on how you adjust the ingredients. I've got a few lists involving literally nothing but Proteus squads and characters because theyre absolutely ace right now.

For the most part, the Vets are just better Intercessors at the moment. The only thing really holding back that title is how staggeringly overpriced Stalker Boltguns are. A bare bones Vet unit of DW Bolter/Chainsword is basically a unit of Intercessors and Assault Intercessors in one. Seems.... not bad. Right now I like the idea of a couple Storm Shields to help them hold their ground, but I'm not sure exactly what else to add.

That's the oddity with the Proteus; it doesn't seem to have any pressing need for non-Vet models, though Terminators seem pretty solid carriers for heavy weapons. I think if the Stalkers were a better value, there'd be a really solid option for a long range backfield objective KT of Infernus/Cyclones/Stalkers. As is, I think it can work but 25 PPM on the stalkers is a little.... much, competitively. To start I think they're going to work best as the midfield objective holders, but that build is mostly just Vets at this point. The flamer option is definitely interesting. I also think there's probably a really scary melee build to discover.

So... at the moment I have a few general builds in mind:

Basic: Bolter/Chainsword. A couple guys with shields, maybe a Terminator.

Long Range: Stalkers/Cyclone/Infernus or HB, probably overcosted. :(

Teleported Purge team: Combi-Flamers/Chainswords. A Vanguard with a Hand Flamer is probably actually pretty useful here.

Melee: Haven't figured it out. Vanguards without Jump Packs can shave points here if you're going with something like claws.

Sterling191 wrote:
In fairness, I ran similarly mixed formations in 8th when SB/SS and nothing else was the order of the day. Please dont infer anything from my choice to not go CF/SS x10 other than I find such vanilla builds boring.

If I wanted to not customize my army, I wouldnt be playing Deathwatch after all.

I cannot agree more with this sentiment. I chose Deathwatch because of the modeling and customization capability while lacking practical gaming experience with them, so I'm glad I'm not the only one that yawns when reading those vanilla builds. Cheers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

That's the oddity with the Proteus; it doesn't seem to have any pressing need for non-Vet models, though Terminators seem pretty solid carriers for heavy weapons.

I think the inclusion of Terminators, for me, is exciting because of how interesting the Teleport Homer is.

 LunarSol wrote:
I think if the Stalkers were a better value, there'd be a really solid option for a long range backfield objective KT of Infernus/Cyclones/Stalkers. As is, I think it can work but 25 PPM on the stalkers is a little.... much, competitively. To start I think they're going to work best as the midfield objective holders, but that build is mostly just Vets at this point. The flamer option is definitely interesting. I also think there's probably a really scary melee build to discover.

How do folks feel about the Plasma Cannon on these Terminators?

 LunarSol wrote:

Long Range: Stalkers/Cyclone/Infernus or HB, probably overcosted.

Dont give Stalkers a second thought. 4 Bolter/Shield + 4 Bolter/LC or Chainsword + 2 CML Termies. Combat squad down, park on home field terrain or objectives, and spray the board down with bolter discipline SIA.

 LunarSol wrote:

Melee: Haven't figured it out. Vanguards without Jump Packs can shave points here if you're going with something like claws.

You're going to want at least one Jump VanVet in a melee team. Utilized correctly they can shave as much as 3" off a charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ancible wrote:

How do folks feel about the Plasma Cannon on these Terminators?

Not for a second worth it. If you want plasma, the rifle at 5 points on a vet is solid gold. If Termies had access to HPCs (that went to Damage 3 in the overcharged profile) it'd be a very different discussion.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Long Range: Stalkers/Cyclone/Infernus or HB, probably overcosted.

Dont give Stalkers a second thought. 4 Bolter/Shield + 4 Bolter/LC or Chainsword + 2 CML Termies. Combat squad down, park on home field terrain or objectives, and spray the board down with bolter discipline SIA.

I only consider them because I have 5 painted. They were overpriced at 3; 5 is.... silly.

I need to sit and math out shotguns. They're ALMOST good again (I so miss the original 7 shot selection loadout ). The loss of the Chainsword is probably the killer for them this time around.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Melee: Haven't figured it out. Vanguards without Jump Packs can shave points here if you're going with something like claws.

You're going to want at least one Jump VanVet in a melee team. Utilized correctly they can shave as much as 3" off a charge..

That's a good point. Is a biker better at the job given the larger base and access to fall back charge stratagem?

 LunarSol wrote:

That's a good point. Is a biker better at the job given the larger base and access to fall back charge stratagem?

Honestly, not really. I vastly prefer the VanVet for lead out duty because he can just leapfrog over things thanks to his pseudo fly, whereas the bike has to go around. The Bike also doesnt hit *nearly* as hard as a twin LC VanVet does if it makes it in. There's absolutely a place for a Bike in the team purely for fall back + charge capacity, but he's nowhere near as good at getting the squad in in the first place.

 LunarSol wrote:

I only consider them because I have 5 painted. They were overpriced at 3; 5 is.... silly.

I'm personally hoping they got the Biker Stalker and Vet Stalker prices backwards. We'll see in a month.

That would make a lot of sense. Here's hoping!

If you are a a CC unit, you want a bike, shooting you want a vanguard vet. Terminators are solid as well.

I honestly think you want at least one of each and for a hold the middle kill team you want a mix.

Combined with a chief apoth we can still do a lot of wound shenanigans.

Sterling191 wrote:

Not for a second worth it. If you want plasma, the rifle at 5 points on a vet is solid gold. If Termies had access to HPCs (that went to Damage 3 in the overcharged profile) it'd be a very different discussion.

I honestly thought that's what they were (had no idea there was a difference in profile), so I am disappointed now

At least they look cool. I like the assault cannons too, but I gather those are pretty much the worst thing to commit to points wise.

 Vilgeir wrote:

At least they look cool. I like the assault cannons too, but I gather those are pretty much the worst thing to commit to points wise.

Im of very mixed opinions on the AC. Its not too expensive, has a decent range and puts out a good pile of mid-strength shots, so on paper it looks like it'd be a decent pick for moderately up-gunning a model. I just dont know that it does enough over the basic storm bolter to justify the points cost, especially with the CML sitting right over there for a possible 16 hordesweeping shots (in some situations guaranteed thanks to blast).

I can see them doing work, especially with wound reroll support, they're just not my particular cup of tea I guess is the best way to describe them.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Vilgeir wrote:

At least they look cool. I like the assault cannons too, but I gather those are pretty much the worst thing to commit to points wise.

Im of very mixed opinions on the AC. Its not too expensive, has a decent range and puts out a good pile of mid-strength shots, so on paper it looks like it'd be a decent pick for moderately up-gunning a model. I just dont know that it does enough over the basic storm bolter to justify the points cost, especially with the CML sitting right over there for a possible 16 hordesweeping shots (in some situations guaranteed thanks to blast).

I can see them doing work, especially with wound reroll support, they're just not my particular cup of tea I guess is the best way to describe them.

That makes sense. I think I'm just drawn to them thanks to the unique look of the Dark Angel and Space Wolf bits, both of which will make mighty fine additions to a Kill Team thematically. They're going into the collection anyway, but using them in a game may be a little rare...

It does annoy me that a weapon called an assault cannon isn't an assault weapon, but I suppose there's going to be quite a few examples of minor annoyances as I explore the game and faction more. Thanks for the input!

I do have a super weird question for you fine folks regarding sourcing bits. I'm not yet certain how adventurous I can get with modeling. I've gathered that the community can be reasonably strict on a model actually carrying the correct bits, and I'm interested in those combi-weapon units, but the Kill Team unit I just purchased only comes with 2 of those weapons. I see the Sternguard Veteran box has a whole boatload of them, but they have a different design, most notably missing the unique Deathwatch shot selectors and scopes on the boltgun half. Is that going to be an issue if I use those Sternguard pieces in place of the Deathwatch bit? I think that Sternguard box will be a much more reliable way to source those bits after all, but I don't want to be using an unacceptable replacement part for when I do have the ability to start gaming. Any insight on this from the community would certainly help.

 LunarSol wrote:


I need to sit and math out shotguns. They're ALMOST good again (I so miss the original 7 shot selection loadout ). The loss of the Chainsword is probably the killer for them this time around.

This is pretty much where I am atm.

Shotguns as a weapon option are, actually, not bad. The issue, as you say, is you lose melee/shield in your offhand, so the opportunity cost is too high. But I still want to like them, and am trying to find a place for them.

I think combiflamer is pretty hard to beat now for a midfield DS vet team. 2 sia shots and 1d6 autohits, with doctrine up, is a hefty little sting for a single marine, plus you have your offhand to equip a free chainsword or a shield. When it all flops out I expect this kind of unit to get a lot of play in DW armies, and that makes me happy.

 Vilgeir wrote:

I do have a super weird question for you fine folks regarding sourcing bits. I'm not yet certain how adventurous I can get with modeling. I've gathered that the community can be reasonably strict on a model actually carrying the correct bits, and I'm interested in those combi-weapon units, but the Kill Team unit I just purchased only comes with 2 of those weapons. I see the Sternguard Veteran box has a whole boatload of them, but they have a different design, most notably missing the unique Deathwatch shot selectors and scopes on the boltgun half. Is that going to be an issue if I use those Sternguard pieces in place of the Deathwatch bit? I think that Sternguard box will be a much more reliable way to source those bits after all, but I don't want to be using an unacceptable replacement part for when I do have the ability to start gaming. Any insight on this from the community would certainly help.

Sternguard make fantastic Vets. I get compliments about mine all the time.

 grouchoben wrote:
I think combiflamer is pretty hard to beat now for a midfield DS vet team. 2 sia shots and 1d6 autohits, with doctrine up, is a hefty little sting for a single marine, plus you have your offhand to equip a free chainsword or a shield. When it all flops out I expect this kind of unit to get a lot of play in DW armies, and that makes me happy.

It's the premier ranged weapon in the Veteran/Proteus arsenal in my estimation for 9th. The flamer portion alone is equivalent in firepower to a storm bolter, and then you've got the SIA to go with it plus the unallocated second gear slot.

Am I misreading that a Proteus Kill Team can't have a black shield so it's a choice between vanguard vet or black shield?

Fallback and shoot makes that a no brainer for me.

Here is my current proteus kill team

5x vets, 5x combi flamer, 4x stormshield, 1x LC on SGT(might give this damage 2).
1x vanguard vet with lightning claw and stormshield
1x Bike chainsword
3x terminators 2x heavy flamer/power fist - third is up in the air.

Idea is it goes midfield with my Watchmaster and apothecary while the r3st of the army is quick and flanks. Part of me wants to swap from heavy flamers to assault cannons to get more from the Watchmaster, but it still applies for CC so it’s a tough call.

In reality this unit is mainly there to deal with non-marines while also still doing decent damage to marines.

Shotguns are surprisingly delightful in terms of math. They outperform SIA boltguns across the board so long as you can get into range. Obviously Combiflamers doubling up on profiles outshoots the Wyrmsbreath at 12”, and does so in a point efficient manner.

Where things get really fun is with the xenopurge profile. You want to wax enemy MEQ on the cheap? That’s how you do it. Combi grav and overcharged combi plasma outshoots that profile in terms of point efficiency against MEQs in certain buff situations, but again, if you want a unit that performs at the cheapest price point without needing rerolls while being able to smack around hordes and/or MEQ, shotguns do work.

I think shotguns would be fantastic if they didn’t cost you that second hand slot. If you have a delivery system where you aren’t worried about getting shot up turn 1 or 2.

I also think a mastercrafted shotgun is hilarious. Especially since the sarge can still take a combat shield with it,

Part of me thinks the whole “two hand slots” thing won’t last once some tournaments get going. While wildly thematic, it just allows some fundamentally overpowered stuff, all of it related to the storm shield+ranged option.

For example, veterans can use storm shields and boltguns. This is probably the least abusive setup, yet it costs 5 points more than Intercessors, who are universally considered the gold standard of troop choices, and conveys a 2+/4++, with a weapon that is nearly identical functionally to a bolt rifle.

A 2000 point list can bring about 70 of those guys with some room for HQs. That’s 140 of the hardest wounds to take off the table imaginable, with legitimate lethality at range. Mix in some VanVets to let them fall back and shoot, too, just in case you think you’ll get killed in melee.

Now do the same thing, but with plasma guns. You’re basically hellblasters with one worse AP that get a 2+/4++ and are cheaper.

Now do the same thing, but with meltas. Oh they may not outdamage Eradicators point for point, but they sure do outlive them every day of the week.

At the end of the day the points add up and every death hurts more than in other lists. I expect a lot of xenos/heretic weapons to go damage 2 over time.

We are an elite army, but we certainly pay for it. It might be a problem in the future but I don’t think overall it will be since at the end of the day we will still be a few dice rolls away from collapse while armies with more bodies are not as reliant on any specific roll.

However I also have to accept that I have not gotten to play since marines went to 2 wounds and the new stormshields so I don’t have a real feel for how durable they are now.

For the fallback and shoot, I figured if it was ever really important then I could take the Ultramarines chapter tactic on the unit that needs it and not need to add a vanguard vet to every unit.

For durability, the most recent event in my area had some lists with 80ish heavy bolter shots, so yeah, I expect a lot of vets to die.

I also haven't played in almost a year though so I feel out of practice and out of the loop on what is good. I was leaning towards one unit of 6 combi flamers and chainswords and 4 stormshields and boltguns with another unit of 6 combi plasma and chainswords and 4 stormshields and boltguns. I wanted to try 10 intercessors with autobolt rifles potentially getting 60 shots, but I'm almost tempted by trying 5 eradicators mixed in. (edit: I meant hellblasters)

Yeah, the two handed stuff has been around... forever and never breaks anything. Boyz before toyz is a real thing and at 5 points, you have to remember every 4 shields is another Intercessor. Worth it? Probably, but there's probably an optimal point in the middle.

GW has also freed itself of costing equipment the same across the board, so most likely if it were a real problem they'd just make them 7 for Vets or something like that.

You also have to remember that taking the Vets has its own drawbacks, like not getting to ignore AP-1 or not having global fall back and shoot, or advance and charge, etc, etc, etc. Our tactic isn't bad, but its no where near the force multiplier of its equivalents against most armies.

 Leth wrote:
Fallback and shoot makes that a no brainer for me.

Here is my current proteus kill team

5x vets, 5x combi flamer, 4x stormshield, 1x LC on SGT(might give this damage 2).
1x vanguard vet with lightning claw and stormshield
1x Bike chainsword
3x terminators 2x heavy flamer/power fist - third is up in the air.

Mind if I ask the purpose of the 3 termies in the team? Hefy points increase and not much gained, or am I missing something?

Teleport, source of damage 2, Wound soak with the apoth nearby to heal or Rez. More flamers.

I am still trying to figureout what I want to do with the unit since I envision it as the middle of the table bunker.

However with plasma inceptors being so popular it might make sense to keep everything under 6 models.

 Leth wrote:
Teleport, source of damage 2, Wound soak with the apoth nearby to heal or Rez. More flamers.

I am still trying to figureout what I want to do with the unit since I envision it as the middle of the table bunker.

However with plasma inceptors being so popular it might make sense to keep everything under 6 models.

Combat Squad seems to be the solution to pretty much every problem.

 LunarSol wrote:
Yeah, the two handed stuff has been around... forever and never breaks anything. Boyz before toyz is a real thing and at 5 points, you have to remember every 4 shields is another Intercessor. Worth it? Probably, but there's probably an optimal point in the middle.

GW has also freed itself of costing equipment the same across the board, so most likely if it were a real problem they'd just make them 7 for Vets or something like that.

You also have to remember that taking the Vets has its own drawbacks, like not getting to ignore AP-1 or not having global fall back and shoot, or advance and charge, etc, etc, etc. Our tactic isn't bad, but its no where near the force multiplier of its equivalents against most armies.

On the pro side, if I'm comparing our vets to another armies intercessors, we do get SIA to adapt to our target, a free astartes chainsword for both an additional attack and ap -1, reroll 1's to wound against a chosen unit slot, and the choice of which doctrine to use and when (plus, we can snag those clutch traits from white scars, blood angels, or ultramarines when it really is valuable and most opponents would not be ready for something like an advance and charge or fall back and shoot). I feel our vets actually have a pretty sizable advantage over the troops of other armies even with their traits factored in.

That's a good point about the stormshield and weapon costs adding up quickly though. Maybe I should just go for more vets because I could run another squad by cutting the bells and whistles and focusing on boltguns and chainswords.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

That's a good point about the stormshield and weapon costs adding up quickly though. Maybe I should just go for more vets because I could run another squad by cutting the bells and whistles and focusing on boltguns and chainswords.

I think a couple of Shields is good, but I'd stick to 1-2 to absorb some early damage and let the survivors finish things off with chainswords.

I was just doing some math-hammer to identify efficient loadouts for killing other marines (since I kinda feel like that's all that anyone is playing right now) and I figured I'd share what I found with you guys. Feel free to check my numbers in case I made any mistakes. It was kind of just a musing at first but I kept adding more weapon loadouts to compare as I went along so I didn't pick a point value that would have been the exact same for every unit.

Following are the units and the number of marines (tactical/intercessor) you'd expect to kill in shooting without any other special rules coming into play.
10 combi-flamers (250 points): 4.6 marines
12 deathwatch bolters (240 points): 2.6 marines
8 combi-plasma (240 points): 6.8 marines
10 plasma (250 points): 9 marines

Notes:
When combi-weapons were involved, I was firing both profiles so -1 BS.
For bolter shots, I used vengeance rounds assuming those would be the most efficient.

Right now this has me thinking I'll run 1 unit of just plasma guns (not combi) with chainswords (and probably a couple shields) as an elite unit killer and then another unit loaded up with combi-flamers and chainswords because those do still put out great numbers against hordes. I'm just not sure that's a common threat right now.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I was just doing some math-hammer to identify efficient loadouts for killing other marines (since I kinda feel like that's all that anyone is playing right now) and I figured I'd share what I found with you guys. Feel free to check my numbers in case I made any mistakes. It was kind of just a musing at first but I kept adding more weapon loadouts to compare as I went along so I didn't pick a point value that would have been the exact same for every unit.

Following are the units and the number of marines (tactical/intercessor) you'd expect to kill in shooting without any other special rules coming into play.
10 combi-flamers (250 points): 4.6 marines
12 deathwatch bolters (240 points): 2.6 marines
8 combi-plasma (240 points): 6.8 marines
10 plasma (250 points): 9 marines

Notes:
When combi-weapons were involved, I was firing both profiles so -1 BS.
For bolter shots, I used vengeance rounds assuming those would be the most efficient.

Right now this has me thinking I'll run 1 unit of just plasma guns (not combi) with chainswords (and probably a couple shields) as an elite unit killer and then another unit loaded up with combi-flamers and chainswords because those do still put out great numbers against hordes. I'm just not sure that's a common threat right now.

Interesting. I assume all of these were done at 12" range? (rapid fire for plasma, etc)

I decided to try to do the same calculation for the Shotgun.

12 Shotguns (xenopurge I assume is best) (240pts) = 4 marines.

So yeh they don't seem to compete. Though plasma has the issue of being able to suicide.

It does make me consider going pure plasmaguns (or even meltaguns) and just forgetting SIA/boltguns even exist.


On another note, are there any benefits to other units we have available through the main codex now? I wondered about the company vets, as they are essentially veterans (obviously) but with the ability to bodyguard characters and unlock detachment-slot-free apothecary/champion/ancients.