Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Eldarain wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Terminators can no longer take power swords, power axes, or power mauls.

This alone makes me want to punch the FAQ guys.

Apparently they aren't gone but changed to 0 points? Something about 9th unit description saying if an option doesn't have a listed cost it's free. (I don't have the new book as the plague wiped out gaming for me)

Eldarain is correct, they have been deleted from the points list not the unit datasheet options - per both the main codex and supplement datasheet options with unlisted points are free so now terminator power weapons are just cheaper, not gone.

The adjustment on points is mostly a side grade, nothing groundbreaking.
Reivers still pointless in Spectrus kill teams due to lack of infiltration.
Overall, it doesn't affect my lists with the exception of adding a Black Shield to Proteus teams (most of my watch force).

The Specialism cost decrease is probably the most significant/surprising change. Other than that, its pretty much expected.

What's the consensus on Frag Cannons now? Are they competitive with combi-plas at the same points cost?

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
What's the consensus on Frag Cannons now? Are they competitive with combi-plas at the same points cost?

I'd say they are okayish, and have their roll. They aren't the beatstick they used to be in the last codex, but for 10 points they're not a bad choice now.

Sterling191 wrote:
FAQ is live.

Black Shields can go in Proteus Kill Teams
Point values for multiple things were fixed (Terminators arent paying twice for basic power weapons, Stalker Boltguns are back down to 3ppm for Vets)
Tweaked some PL values (they're still stupidly overcosted for Kill Teams, sorry Crusade players)

Interestingly, Terminators appear to still be able to double up on heavy weapons, and also still impart their 5++ Crux Terminatus invuln to a Proteus Kill Team. All told not a lot of surprises here.

Sorry what do you mean by this? The 5++ is only if you choose to take the wound on a terminator isn't it?

Abaddon303 wrote:

Sorry what do you mean by this? The 5++ is only if you choose to take the wound on a terminator isn't it?

Crux Terminatus says "Every model in this unit". There's no call out in the Proteus rules that changes this to only apply to the Terminators the way we see with Devastating Charge or Multi-spectrum Array. Almost certainly a (double) oversight, particularly since it doesn't worth that way for KT Cassius, but for now it works on everyone.

Abaddon303 wrote:

Sorry what do you mean by this? The 5++ is only if you choose to take the wound on a terminator isn't it?

The wording on the Deathwatch Terminator Crux Terminatus ability is as follows:

"Every model in this unit has a 5+ Invulnerable save".

The Mixed Unit rule imparts that ability in its entirety to any Proteus Kill Team with at least 1 terminator in it.

Oh, yeh I think that's definitely an oversight. Surely no one's gonna try and play it that way?

Sterling191 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:

Sorry what do you mean by this? The 5++ is only if you choose to take the wound on a terminator isn't it?

The wording on the Deathwatch Terminator Crux Terminatus ability is as follows:

"Every model in this unit has a 5+ Invulnerable save".

The Mixed Unit rule imparts that ability in its entirety to any Proteus Kill Team with at least 1 terminator in it.

Wow, I totally overlooked that. Cheesy rules lawyering, but is technically RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Oh, yeh I think that's definitely an oversight. Surely no one's gonna try and play it that way?

I have a Deathguard friend. We were talking about his new loophole, in that DG Rhinos can now do old-school Rhino rush. Since they always count as stationary they can move, then disembark, then troops move and assault. If this is his interpretation of those rules interactions (and I agree it's RAW) then he better not give me any guff about sharing a 5++.

I'm not sure if not counting as moving satisfies disembarking before a transport moves but that's probably a thread for YMDC

Is there any play in a terminator-heavy deathwatch list? I know we don't have the dark angel level of buffs, but anything we bring to the table?

Also, any dreadnought options worth bringing that we have any benefits with?

Niiru wrote:
Is there any play in a terminator-heavy deathwatch list? I know we don't have the dark angel level of buffs, but anything we bring to the table?

You're going to need to define "terminator heavy". There's very much play in multiple terminators in Proteus teams, and if built for a specific purpose in mind I can see a squad of standalone fellas doing some work.

Niiru wrote:


Also, any dreadnought options worth bringing that we have any benefits with?

Redemptors and VenDreads are exceptional in a Deathwatch force.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Is there any play in a terminator-heavy deathwatch list? I know we don't have the dark angel level of buffs, but anything we bring to the table?

You're going to need to define "terminator heavy". There's very much play in multiple terminators in Proteus teams, and if built for a specific purpose in mind I can see a squad of standalone fellas doing some work.

Niiru wrote:


Also, any dreadnought options worth bringing that we have any benefits with?

Redemptors and VenDreads are exceptional in a Deathwatch force.

I'm just trying to think of a 'space marine' list for an upcoming campaign, but without it being a 'same old' kind of list. Was thinking of going elite-heavy or walker-heavy. So terminators, centurions, dreadnoughts. Considered having gravis as my troops, but I still want my list to be decently strong, and I suspect proteus teams will still be the better pick... but that at least means I can have terminators in each squad, which would fit the theme.

What loadouts would you have for redemptors and vens? with the teleportarium, I wondered if there were any normally-poor weapon choices (due to short range) that becomes much better when you can drop-and-shoot..

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Is there any play in a terminator-heavy deathwatch list? I know we don't have the dark angel level of buffs, but anything we bring to the table?

You're going to need to define "terminator heavy". There's very much play in multiple terminators in Proteus teams, and if built for a specific purpose in mind I can see a squad of standalone fellas doing some work.

Niiru wrote:


Also, any dreadnought options worth bringing that we have any benefits with?

Redemptors and VenDreads are exceptional in a Deathwatch force.

Interested in why you say this. What is it about deathwatch that makes redemptors and vendreads exceptional compared to other chapters? The ability to teleport?

I haven't played Deathwatch in 9th yet. I am however REALLY interested in teleport homers in Proteus kill teams. Even though it is a once-per game ability, it has so many tactical uses. You can bate an enemy into a corner and teleport just to make him footslog back across the board. You can use one fast unit (bikers, Blackstar) to zoom up the board and teleport in multiple squads. You can even mimic old-school Necron VoD tactics by teleporting out of close combat with someone you can't handle only to leave them open to massed firepower.

Abaddon303 wrote:

Interested in why you say this. What is it about deathwatch that makes redemptors and vendreads exceptional compared to other chapters? The ability to teleport?

Teleportation is part of it, the other is the suite of buffs (both defensive and offensive) that Deathwatch bring to the table, most of which are relic, WLT or stratagem based and dont require the randomness of dice to cooperate. The faction as a whole relies on souping up specific units at specific times to do the business, and with the Core keyword Dreads get in on that party in a big way.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I haven't played Deathwatch in 9th yet. I am however REALLY interested in teleport homers in Proteus kill teams. Even though it is a once-per game ability, it has so many tactical uses. You can bate an enemy into a corner and teleport just to make him footslog back across the board. You can use one fast unit (bikers, Blackstar) to zoom up the board and teleport in multiple squads. You can even mimic old-school Necron VoD tactics by teleporting out of close combat with someone you can't handle only to leave them open to massed firepower.

Keep in mind that the homer does not let you re-deploy on the same turn that you vanish. Yes it's powerful, but it's got a significant opportunity cost. I'm not saying that opportunity cost isnt worth paying in a lot of cases (I absolutely think the 5 points per squad is worth the capacity to pull mid-game redeploy shenanigans), it's just not as easy to use as something like the 8th edition Dark Matter crystal or other analogous tricks.

Im sorry for the double post - this is where this post belongs. Would love to hear other's thoughts on the new Dex.

Some awesome elements of the new Dex:

Relics:
the Aegis Dominus - to really make that Chief Apothecary obnoxious.

The Tome of Ectoclades - its like the Seal of Oath, but can target more than one unit.

The Beacon Angelus - it still works, a first turn alpha/beta strike could look like a Drop Pop full of your choice of Deathwatch Veterans - I like Frag Cannons for this one. A Master of Sanctity on a bike with the Beacon and Recitation of Focus, Catechism of Fire, Hero of the Chapter: Nowhere to Hide. And a second unit dedicated to killing whatever target youre pouncing on. Your list probably has a Kill team for killing armor, heavy and light infantry. Grab the appropriate tool, apply those litanies from the safety of your DZ. In the movement phase advance your chaplain, beacon over the unit and end with bringing in your drop pod. If you can wait a turn and have one - the Termite Drill is better.

WLT's: Optimized Priority is solid considering the bulk of your infantry are large chucks of your points, youll need to make use of them killing as well as scoring secondaries. If you add a unit of Company Vets, you may not need this one. I take it in ever list Ive built.
You have access to every chapter's WLT now via Paragon of Their Chapter. The standouts for me are: Adept of the Codex and Brilliant Strategist.

Teleport Homers are good. If you take Kill Teams with a terminator - take one.

We've lost SIA effectively but have gained large units of OBSEC units other chapters do not have access. I need more testing but I think you're better off with taking 4 bikers and having the 5th member being infantry so that you retain movement shenanigans. 5 Inceptors with ablative wounds (once we can buy Heavy Intercessors), 4 or 5 Eliminators with Lasfusils are good (so are snipers to kill opposing Chief Apothecaries) as are 4 Eliminators with an Infiltrator with the Helix.

I still like Proteus Kill Teams, but I would first have 2 Fortis Outrider Kill teams or one and a Proteus team with 1st Born bikers.

If you're going with the Chief Apothecary and Dominus Aegis, you'll want those units with bikers as they have a huge footprint and can string back to those character buffs. If not then combat squad'ing is something to consider. If combat sqad'ing then think about mixing units to gain maximum benefit from squad type/toughness rules.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:


If you're going with the Chief Apothecary and Dominus Aegis

You mention this twice, and it's a common mistake, but pretty sure you can't have the aegis on an apothecary. You have to take a character with a shield, which means a captain or a champion. So it seems like you often have to make a choice between having and apothecary or having the aegis, as fitting both into an army is difficult due to slots/points limitations (you also want a librarian and a watch master and maybe a chaplain... Lots to fit in).

Ok. I'm talking about list building. I assumed readers in this thread would conclude the apothecary and dominus Aegis were two different characters. One being an apothecary and another being a captain carrying a shield that can be upgraded to the Dominus.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Ok. I'm talking about list building. I assumed readers in this thread would conclude the apothecary and dominus Aegis were two different characters. One being an apothecary and another being a captain carrying a shield that can be upgraded to the Dominus.

It would have been a pretty big conclusion to jump to, as you only ever mention the aegis being with the apothecary lol.

Still not sure if the apothecary is worth the points cost. Depends on what unit you out him with etc

Ok. Not sure the apothecary is worth it. Lol. That speaks volumes. I think the real question is whether or not to include company veterans to protect him.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Ok. Not sure the apothecary is worth it. Lol. That speaks volumes. I think the real question is whether or not to include company veterans to protect him.

His efficiency relies on what units he's with. If he's casting with a bunch of gravis, then it may work out. If you're running a lot of bikes he's useful in theory but in practise he's mostly out of range or making the bikes slow (we don't have a bike or jetpack apothecary like other armies, if we did things would be hugely different).

Also his fnp doesn't stack with the better fnp we already have access to, so it would depend again on what units you want protected and whether he is able to be in the right places to do so. 100pts to protect a backfield squad that is already well protected is likely a waste when having more guns instead might be more useful to win the game.

If you run a lot of 3w models though his usefulness increases significantly. So as I said - depends on what units you run with him.

Running company vets to bodyguard him seems unlikely to be worthwhile though.


On another note - is there a consensus on terminators vs gravis? Pros and cons etc? Seems terminators are fine for melee but gravis are better for shooty?

Niiru wrote:

On another note - is there a consensus on terminators vs gravis? Pros and cons etc? Seems terminators are fine for melee but gravis are better for shooty?

Different tools for different jobs. Inceptors are terrifying gunships, Aggressors are budget Assault Centurions (realistically, if you're running Aggressors it isnt for their shooting but for their capacity to scare the crap out of medium to heavy infantry or vehicles in melee), while Eradicators are, well, Eradicators.

Of the standalone Gravis types, Inceptors and Eradicators are the most at home in a DW list, while Aggressors are a bit of a wild card that can definitely benefit from some of our tricks, but unfortunately are a bit on the points inefficient side.

Where things get more complicated is when you start looking at them in Kill Teams, and in all seriousness I dont think we have near enough experience or data to speak to that definitively with the new Codex. Likewise for Terminators. There's what they *should* do on paper, but reality is often far different.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Ok. Not sure the apothecary is worth it. Lol. That speaks volumes. I think the real question is whether or not to include company veterans to protect him.

Realistically, to outperform the 5++/5+++ a Librarian can deploy, the Apothecary is not an auto-take in all circumstances.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

On another note - is there a consensus on terminators vs gravis? Pros and cons etc? Seems terminators are fine for melee but gravis are better for shooty?

Different tools for different jobs. Inceptors are terrifying gunships, Aggressors are budget Assault Centurions (realistically, if you're running Aggressors it isnt for their shooting but for their capacity to scare the crap out of medium to heavy infantry or vehicles in melee), while Eradicators are, well, Eradicators.

Of the standalone Gravis types, Inceptors and Eradicators are the most at home in a DW list, while Aggressors are a bit of a wild card that can definitely benefit from some of our tricks, but unfortunately are a bit on the points inefficient side.

Is there a place for centurions, or are 'budget' centurions the better option right now?

Any thoughts on the dreadnought choices, and whether or not teleporting them is worthwhile? I've been advised elsewhere that the plasma redemptor is a good choice, but not to teleport just have it walking. I had an Ironclad raised as being a good teleport option, but not sure on that one.

Additional: Do we have any access to any way to get a more reliable charge off from deepstrike/teleport? I haven't noticed anything, and I've realised that this is a big issue when it comes to a potential deepstriking lightning-claw force. (Thought it does make me consider putting them in a blackstar instead).

Additional 2: Just noticed that on battlescribe (I think it's a legends thing maybe) you can give a storm shield to a librarian. Meaning you can give him Aegis as well. Interesting, shame it's not tournament-legal.

Niiru wrote:


Is there a place for centurions, or are 'budget' centurions the better option right now?

We're firmly in "needs more data" territory, but for everything excepting bleeding edge competitive I do think assault centurions are viable. Port em in, drop em from the sky out of a Corvus, yoink em across the board with the Beacon, whack em with the +2 to charge litany and cackle as they tear things to pieces.

Niiru wrote:

Any thoughts on the dreadnought choices, and whether or not teleporting them is worthwhile? I've been advised elsewhere that the plasma redemptor is a good choice, but not to teleport just have it walking. I had an Ironclad raised as being a good teleport option, but not sure on that one.

I am a massive fan of the plasma Redemptor in 9th. The flat 3 damage profile on the gun, plus the d3+3 damage on the fist (plus its supporting guns) make it an all aspect threat that flat out cannot be ignored. Get two, park an Aegis character between them and march em right up the gut.

Alternatively, a TwinLas + Fist VenDread fills a similar niche without a degrading profile and with a baked in 6+++, albeit nowhere near as efficiently.

Niiru wrote:

Additional: Do we have any access to any way to get a more reliable charge off from deepstrike/teleport? I haven't noticed anything, and I've realised that this is a big issue when it comes to a potential deepstriking lightning-claw force. (Thought it does make me consider putting them in a blackstar instead).

A Chaplain with Inspiring Oratory is your friend here. A rerollable 7" charge is not perfect, but the odds are in your favor.

Sterling191 wrote:
snip

Basically I'm about to enter an escalating Crusade compaign, and I'm heavily considering going Deathwatch for it (instead of my usual Eldar). Wondering if anyone had any tips for a 1000pt starting force?

Trying to mess around adding some of the units from above. So Redemptors, terminators, centurions, things of that nature. Ends up being very elite and expensive, but still.

Proteus teams are likely to be my go-to for troops (I'm even considering making an all-oldmarine list, with vets and terminators), but I'm not sure the best way to run them. Shield+LC seems decent (if I can get them into combat) or shield+combimelta / combiflamer maybe.

Any tips or a rough outline for 1000 points would be appreciated, as it's such a small points value its hard to know whats worthwhile. Though we will gradually grow our rosters so it won't be too bad over time.

Sterling191 wrote:
*snip*

Niiru wrote:

Additional: Do we have any access to any way to get a more reliable charge off from deepstrike/teleport? I haven't noticed anything, and I've realised that this is a big issue when it comes to a potential deepstriking lightning-claw force. (Thought it does make me consider putting them in a blackstar instead).

A Chaplain with Inspiring Oratory is your friend here. A rerollable 7" charge is not perfect, but the odds are in your favor.

To chime in on deepstrike charges, The inspiring oratory move is one I'm trying out with regular codex marines (mass terminator drop). DW specific I'm trying to figure out how to make this 3 character tag team work, but it seems like too much of an investment that would lead to a one trick pony army:

Characters:
Watch Master
Primaris Chaplain on bike (master of sanctity, wise orator, canticle of hate, recitation of focus, beacon angelis)
Any librarian (probably phobos, peremorphic resonance, fortified with contempt)

The characters will be accompanied by:
Fortis bikers
A shooty core unit (preferably proteus cyclone missiles or indomitor eradicators, or 10 intercessors if I'm tight on points)
A fighty core unit (preferably indomitor aggressors)
A gatling redemptor dread or 2 (teleporting)

Turn 1:
The watch master tags the fighty unit with rerolls, chaplain recites litanies (tag shooty unit with +1 to hit, create charge aura), libby tags fighty unit with both powers
Shooty unit now has 2+ to hit/reroll 1's, fighty unit has hit rerolls for the turn and potential +1 in melee
Surge forwards with the biker pack, and beacon the fighty unit into 7" charge range. The bikes may struggle to charge T1, but are a potential

Turn 2:
Watch master can now tag the shooty unit with rerolls
Libby does as he pleases (if phobos is a potential self buffed fighter, otherwise buffs gunline and smites)
Chaplain repositions to assist teleport arrivals (may switch to litany of hate if no good shooty units in range)
Dread(s) arrive to use 7" charge aura

The awesome speed of the chaplain biker should allow for some precision charge aura buffs, and I really like the idea of getting aggressors up in your face on turn 1 (shooting with rerolls, fighting with rerolls, having 5+++ and heavy intercessor ablative armour, having a solidly buffed overwatch etc). It just seems like an 8th ed army plan though - all fight no objectives...

Maybe I'll simplify my previous question a bit -

Anyone got a favourite go-to killteam that they always use? (or plan to use, considering maybe you haven't been playing lately).


Also - Terminator loadout, is this valid? Cyclone + thunder hammer + storm shield. I thought you couldn't swap the storm bolter twice, but I can't find the faq that I thought existed to prevent it.

Also Also - Did we ever get any conclusion on how the teleportarium strat interacts with combat squadding units?

My favorite kill team loadouts Include;

2 veterans with chainsword/bolter, 4 vets with Frag cannon, Vet serg. with lightning claw/bolter, blackshield with bolter/power sword, and 2 terminators with cyclone/thunder hammer/ shield.


The suicide squad of 10 guys with chainsword/meltagun mounted in a drop pod.

It sounds overly simple, but a squad with 5 Intercessors and 5 hellblasters isn't too bad.