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 CommunistNapkin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Absolutely! It *shouldn't* be an issue, yet there's plenty of people in this here thread who don't even think they exist, and those who do exist should be allowed their freedom of hatespeech!

I don't know, maybe we're the odd ones out here.

Folks in the States have a very different opinion on what freedom of speech means compared to people in other countries. In the states, freedom of speech means that people have the right to speak freely all of their opinions and should not be censored, regardless of how horrible their ideas are. Those ideas should be challenged, ignored, and/or mocked, but they shouldn't be censored. In many other countries, this idea of freedom of speech does not exist, hence the idea of "hate speech," or language that must be shut down because it is offensive, hurtful, incorrect, etc. I think that's part of the disagreement you guys are having.

that's true, but Americans tend to have a very broad view of what "censorship" is. The first amendment applies to governmental action, but we seem to think that private entities, or even individuals, cannot limit our speech.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You lot didn’t fancy giving the mods Christmas off, huh?

Christmas was two days ago.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Folks in the States have a very different opinion on what freedom of speech means compared to people in other countries. In the states, freedom of speech means that people have the right to speak freely all of their opinions and should not be censored, regardless of how horrible their ideas are. Those ideas should be challenged, ignored, and/or mocked, but they shouldn't be censored. In many other countries, this idea of freedom of speech does not exist, hence the idea of "hate speech," or language that must be shut down because it is offensive, hurtful, incorrect, etc. I think that's part of the disagreement you guys are having.

I think the only disagreement here boils down to "is freedom of hatespeech allowed without consequences".

Again, I hasten to mention again that the UDHR does not support hatespeech as a right to freedom of expression.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
[Absolutely! It *shouldn't* be an issue, yet there's plenty of people in this here thread who don't even think they exist, and those who do exist should be allowed their freedom of hatespeech!

I don't know, maybe we're the odd ones out here.

Well, there is nuance to this argument. Do they have the right to voice their opinion? Yes, to a certain extent delineated by the law. Do they have the right to do so without opposition? Certainly not, which is why every single right wing demonstration here is met with numerous and vocal resistance.

In these discussions people tend to forget that 1) these right wing hardliners are a tiny minority and 2) the anonymity of the internet tends to erode social conventions, which is why many people online will use much stronger language than they do in real life.

In my opinion, 40K can be touched by the Poe Law of satire. No matter how grotesque and ridiculous a satire is, there will always be people with such extremist and insane views that they will support it at face value. 40K is no stranger to this phenomenon. I don't think 40K molds teenagers and young adult political and philosophical beliefs all that much though since te overwhelming majority of its consumers are well aware it's a satire or at the very least a nightmare.

While it's true that what you consume can and does, to a certain extand, affects your beliefs and worldviews, how you consume it also has an impact. Since 40K is a social hobby with a strong artistic and creative side to it, it can easily undermine its narrative (taken at face value) by encouraging pro-social rapport and activities. For a bitter, isolated, anti-social, extremely competitive person lacking self confidence, the ideal candidate for recruitment in extremist groups, 40K could indeed play it's part in the radicalisation of such person. In other word, it's very complicated.

I do not fault GW for that nor the hobby in and on itself. It's effect is only really pernicious on people who are already very vulnerable to recruitment by extremist groups. The same could be said for many comic books like Batman or the Punisher for example. It could also be said for late 80 and onward action movie with a white man in a mission of vengeance. It's also important to note that while it can affect a person's beliefs and prejudices, it's extremely poor at affecting a person's behavior. Most radicals aren't, fortunately, murderers or harrassers. Another point of importance is that there is no online community dedicated to those who enjoy 40K at face value and really do believe "the Imperium has it and is a great civilisation". If there were, then 40K couuld become a lot more toxic, but at the moment, most of the forums are dedicated to people searching netlist, discussing points of rules, showing of a cool model here and there, posting some battle report, debatin the physics of boltgun and complaining about everything under the sun.

WH40K's world is dystopian and horrible.

WH40K is not the real world.

Please, media creators, don't destroy dystopian and horrible imaginary worlds for the sake of people who think imaginary and real is the same thing.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Video games cause violence
Dungeons & Dragons is satanic
and toy soldiers breed fascism

I have never seen anyone suggesting that "toy soldiers breed fascism". It's always been "elements of the background have been coopted by fascists".

We saw this starting in 2015-2016 with the reddit/4chan trash of a certain individual being copy/pasted onto art of the God-Emperor of Mankind. It's been spreading out a bit more via Facebook groups and the like with coopting stuff like Death Korps and other Guard/Imperium-related slogans/imagery in support of some of the more out there crap being peddled by supporters of said individual.

The Dungeons and Dragons satanic panic? It had no real supporting evidence. It was literally a moral panic spurred on by really crummy religious and political officials here in the US and tabloids which tended to back them up.
Video games causing violence? It's been heavily debunked--but the same kinds of people who were involved with the D&D "satanic panic" were pushing this.
I can, with a fair amount of certainty, tell you that there's attempts at recruiting via 40k as an avenue and there is definitely targeted harassment in the 40k community that comes up from a very specific kind of individual aimed at the 'other'.

@Sgt_Smudge

GW doesn't have a responsibility to attack your ideological enemies because they aren't an arbiter and they don't know what's best. Anything they say is also undercut by the fact that they're a company and considerations beyond what is right and wrong go into any statement they make. If they believe it will help sales they'll tweet anything. This is just about using a company as a political hammer.

Nobody has denied that racism is bad. You keep saying this with the implied threat that if somebody doesn't agree with you about everything else they're a racist.

I might emerge from my bubble if somebody can produce this network of 40k playing fascists.

 Irkjoe wrote:

Nobody has denied that racism is bad. You keep saying this with the implied threat that if somebody doesn't agree with you about everything else they're a racist.

That's all these threads ever devolve into. They always come off as a less discussion, but a more a masturbatory exercise where they talk at people, knowing if eventually somebody will (be perceived to have) 'slip up' in their response and 'if you don't agree with me you're a heckin nazi!!! can either be sprung on them, or people just roll their eyes and stop replying because it's the internet equivalent of talking to a wall.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Irkjoe wrote:

Nobody has denied that racism is bad. You keep saying this with the implied threat that if somebody doesn't agree with you about everything else they're a racist.

That's all these threads ever devolve into. They always come off as a less discussion, but a more a masturbatory exercise where they talk at people, knowing if eventually somebody will (be perceived to have) 'slip up' in their response and 'if you don't agree with me you're a heckin nazi!!!"

They also tend to devolve into people continually insisting that there is no problem because they have never encountered it or they "can't find it".

Some of us have encountered it in our lives. Some of us are also aware of the fact that this was not a problem that was really "out in the open" until relatively recently.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You lot didn’t fancy giving the mods Christmas off, huh?

Christmas was two days ago.

Forum rules are for life, not just for Christmas.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Irkjoe wrote:

Nobody has denied that racism is bad. You keep saying this with the implied threat that if somebody doesn't agree with you about everything else they're a racist.

That's all these threads ever devolve into. They always come off as a less discussion, but a more a masturbatory exercise where they talk at people, knowing if eventually somebody will (be perceived to have) 'slip up' in their response and 'if you don't agree with me you're a heckin nazi!!! can either be sprung on them, or people just roll their eyes and stop replying because it's the internet equivalent of talking to a wall.

Pretty much this.

As soon as something could be perceived as racist/sexist/fascist/anything not good, people will start squinting real hard to label you.

I'm of firm belief that anything in-game isnt inherently fascist. Its a game, its all fiction. Even if someone came around and painted up a AM army with the 39-45 german scheme, i still wouldn't consider them facist. Just because you like the aestetic doesn't mean you're fascist, heck, i'd do it if AM was an army that interested me in the slightest.

If a Che Guevara T shirt doesn't turn you into a Marxist Revolutionary then 40k won't turn you into a National Socialist either Adding to this, isolating and ostracizing "troubled" individuals in one of the few places where they can be high/normal functioning is probably going to radicalize them further instead of finding common ground. Be more like this guy, but with 40k instead of Blues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis

At some point the line is crossed where suppressing the content is no longer censorship, but a society simply having an immune system. No one is suggesting that making death threats illegal is censorship, for example. Where that line is? That's the rub aint it...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Folks in the States have a very different opinion on what freedom of speech means compared to people in other countries. In the states, freedom of speech means that people have the right to speak freely all of their opinions and should not be censored, regardless of how horrible their ideas are. Those ideas should be challenged, ignored, and/or mocked, but they shouldn't be censored. In many other countries, this idea of freedom of speech does not exist, hence the idea of "hate speech," or language that must be shut down because it is offensive, hurtful, incorrect, etc. I think that's part of the disagreement you guys are having.

I think the only disagreement here boils down to "is freedom of hatespeech allowed without consequences".

Again, I hasten to mention again that the UDHR does not support hatespeech as a right to freedom of expression.

Following up on this, I'm just going to reiterate the 'Folks in the States' part.
Referring to the the UDHR is just going to generate blank stares and confusion, there's really only a single point of reference when Americans talk about 'freedom of speech.'
Well, there is a second, but its religious and doesn't have that concept.


----
Anyway, to the OP's question: no.
Fiction exploring fictional concepts doesn't encourage real life behavior. Video games don't create violence, rock music and D&D don't create Satanists (oogy boogy satanists that never existed, even).
If that's anyone's take, go off and read your Chick Tracts, because it sounds like the same sort of bigotry with a new target. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract see Controversies)
Other-izing gamers, assuming further 'deviancy' and demanding they recant is still appalling even if its coming from a different direction.

BC's point, regardless of how poorly constructed and how his posts have devolved, is that censorship begets censorship. I won't go into too much detail due to the rules of this forum, and I can't speak for Britain, but here in the states, I have absolutely seen blatant and unapologetic censorship beyond the groups of topic in this thread (racists and fascists), and that has me greatly concerned.

I feel it is far more important to show and teach why an idea is wrong than to simply censor it.

I also feel it's long since time that the mods close this thread.

Wow i just noticed this topic, man it exploded fast.....

I see you went right into the gutter with your reference sources-sig marxist and vice? talk about only get one side of the argument.

These are FICTIONAL worlds that should not directly involve anything real world. 40K is no more a discussion of real facism (well actually it is more correctly defined as a feudalist system necessary given the expansive distances and population size of the imperial. in lore Terra doesn't care what sort of political system each world uses as long as they pay the tithes and swear loyalty to the imperium) than star trek is a discussion of utopian communism. hell the Honor Harrington universe (novels) deeply involve every kind of political system man has ever invented-constitutional monarchies, direct monarchies, communist states, socialist state, theocratic states, representative democracies etc....battletech does much the same.

On top of that it is a fictional world that is designed to make playing the GAME interesting to keep and draw players interests.


I stepped away from current 40K because i think 9th edition is complete and utter garbage from the perspective of game mechanics compared to what the game was when i really enjoyed it. playing a rule set heavily influenced by collectable card games + toy soldiers is not the kind of game i enjoy playing.

I don't care about virtue signaling, offensive speech, personal ideology or any of the rest of it as long as i can get together with fellow players and have a fun game, step away from our comparatively small niche hobby and look at the bigger ones, think about how impossible doing any other type of social activity would become if you had to vet every person involved to make sure they met your approved level of socially acceptable thoughts.

My thoughts:

1. It's good to think critically about the media you consume. It's natural to feel torn when something that you like has troublesome elements. If the bad outweighs the good and you can no longer support 40k, feel confident in your choice.

2. There's absolutely a ton of stuff in the 40k lore that's attractive to fascists. A strong male figure dominates a centralized government, monoculture is enforced through violence, physical deviation denotes corruption, tradition confers legitimacy, etc.

3. That being said: That doesn't make 40k fascist. Authoritarians and racist goons are used to espousing less-extreme beliefs than they actually hold. They've gotten good at broadcasting their beliefs through cryptic symbols — Pepe, the OK symbol, and milk emojis have all been co-opted in the last several years. Crypto-fascists are entirely earnest in their terrible beliefs, but they've been forced by polite society to live in a space of submerged meaning — the same space occupied by satire and irony. A setting like 40k, which centralizes a restrictive, hateful state while also distancing itself from any grand moral statements, is going to be catnip to these people.

To some extent, it doesn't matter what else exists in 40k — a certain mindset is here for daddy Imperium, and it'll recontextualize other elements of the setting as necessary. See troubling elements of the fandoms for: Flames of War (and other historical wargames); the Snyderverse; My Little Pony; anime in general; hell, even guns.

I'm not trying to say that creators shouldn't be mindful of their messaging. But I'm also loath to blame a creator for unruly elements co-opting their work. And for what it's worth, there are many elements in 40k that undermine a fascist reading: The Imperium, for all its might, is ramshackle and self-destructive. It's a creaking, ineffective and hypocritical system that is at least a co-author of its own woes. The Tau, the Eldar and the Dark Eldar all offer competing visions to the Imperium. Orks are still violent, mad-scientist hooligans with no real agenda. And Chaos is still inherently goofy and cartoonish — a fitting archenemy for the Imperium of Man.

I guess the tl;dr I'm trying to get at — 40k has elements that are going to be attractive to the fash, but I don't think it's fair to read it as a fascist text. If the setting squicks you out, do what's best for you (and don't let any edgelords give you gruff over that). If you like 40k, please stick around. Be vocal in whatever way works for you. Don't let the only points of view be from prejudiced, authoritarian knuckleheads.

I think there's a causation-order problem here; I suspect people who find 40k speaks to their love of fascist ideology were already philosophically inclined that way ahead of time and 40k happened to fit into their worldview. Assuming that people can't tell fiction from reality and are being ideologically shaped by it sounds a lot like the Jack Thompson murder-simulators-training-killing-machines alarmist video game arguments of yesteryear.

I do find 40k effectively trains people to hate players with a slightly different interpretation of how the game should be played or to hate GW, though, at least given my interactions with various 40k communities as compared to other wargaming communities.

Oh FFS! the 40k setting isn't pro fascist and pro hate, it shows the horrors of what a fascist regime based on hate and fear would be like!

 Matt Swain wrote:
Oh FFS! the 40k setting isn't pro fascist and pro hate, it shows the horrors of what a fascist regime based on hate and fear would be like!

You didn't read the OP or any of the conversation did you?

It might be wise to close this thread sooner rather than later, as it has allready has devolved in parts to a discussion of actual political policy.

As for the topic itself; I don't believe creative decisions regarding works of fiction need to be encumbered by contemporary or historical politics when the fiction itself has no agenda.

I have noticed in the last decade or so that super-politicized groups try to colonize fandoms, twisting the imagery and the tropes of the IP to suit their agenda. Generally, this has been the work of left wingers (for example, as to comics) but with 40k it has long been right wingers. On one hand, 40k is a natural target for right wingers with all of its gothic and fascist imagery. On the other hand, it’s pretty ironic that right wingers would not figure out that all of the overblown imagery of 40k is satirical — I think it’s ultimately very funny that they can’t seem to perceive how absurd and juvenile it is to unironically idolize the Imperium (or any aspect of 40k). This partly has to do with the way the game was presented from 4E on, as less obviously comical.

 BertBert wrote:
Attempts to change or censor fiction are likely rooted in a naive and simplistic world view or an authoritarian mindset.

This is very, very well said.

OP:

Dystopian fiction teaches not only by providing examples of what is right, but also by providing examples of what is wrong. I've used 40k in recreational programs for youth and as a teaching tool. It's all about your approach- and that's a thing that only you can control. For every one idiot who wants to sculpt KKK hoods on their Space Marines because they think the Imperium's orthodoxy and xenophobia implies a tacit acceptance of real world racism, there will be someone who paints Hello Kitty marines.

In the end, it is the responsibility of PEOPLE to determine what they will and will not tolerate in others.

If I was playing 40k with someone who made racist, sexist, homophobic jokes, I would first, politely tell them that those kind of jokes bother me, and ask them to refrain from making those jokes again. If they persist, or otherwise escalate the situation, I issue another last chance in the form of "I've asked once; this makes two. I don't want to pack up and walk out on you mid game, but if you keep making those kind of jokes or statements, I will."

If it's at a store? Talk to the staff in private after an incident that makes you uncomfortable, and again, let them know that stuff bothers you, and that if it continues, you may have to game elsewhere. If it's staff? Talk to the manager in private. If it's the manager? Play and shop elsewhere. If you feel it is safe to do so, let them know privately and politely why you are choosing to shop elsewhere- you probably won't change their behavior, but if a few other like minded people have already done the same, you never know.

You say your friends are starting to bow out of 40k because they are feeling this too, but later you talk about how it isn't the game, it's the community. Seems to me you've got the answer right there: BE the community of positive play.

Don't quit the game, just don't play it with @$$holes. Also, be welcoming non-@$$holes yourselves, who provide positive gaming experiences for people so that they too have a choice to play with people who aren't @$$holes.

That's not to discourage the conversation- we're four pages in, so obviously people have strong thoughts and feelings on the issue; conversations like this actually can be part of the solution.

Is it fair to say that in conclusion, that if you for example encounter someone in your local game store who does not quite get that 40k is meant as satire and a warning against totalitarianism, the best course is to engage them and educate them, especially if they are young. If they dont listen you can just avoid them if you feel uncomfortable around them.

And op should not quit the hobby because he does not indirectly support fascism by buying from GW.

 Manchu wrote:
I have noticed in the last decade or so that super-politicized groups try to colonize fandoms, twisting the imagery and the tropes of the IP to suit their agenda.

I think this is very naive. Most nerd fandoms were born with a socio-political agenda underneath it. Star Trek was deliberately a reflection of the desired utopia of the left wing of the 60's and the new left. Tolkien's work is a mythologised version of Europe during the first half of the 20th century. Narnia is a biblically inspired work of fiction. Dungeons and Dragons canibalised most of Tolkien work's to create their games and thus most of his themes. It's not stranger either to the "in vogue" then return of esoterism and neopaganism surge of the 80's following the in the footstep of the hippy movement of the 60's and 70's. The X-Men were explicitly created to discuss racism through "fantasy racism". Captain America was a pro-war and anti-nazi propaganda piece. The Punisher was a satire of vigilentism and police militarisation with the start of the War on Drugs and the War on Terror. Judge Dread was a bit the same thing. Wonder Woman was created explicitly to serve as a feminist icon. Warhammer 40K was created to first lampoon the Thatcher and late Cold War era and now can serve to lampoon the War on Terror government overeach and propaganda. Nerd fandom always were very political. You and I were just too young, back in the days, and not knowledgeable enough of politics to actually get the references and metaphores or be capable of making a congent discussion on those subjects. Fiction always is a huge battleground for political ideals as they can serve to transmit and foster values with great speed and mark the imaginary of people. They can influence our perception of social phenomenon.

Careful there, I didn’t argue (even implicitly) that fiction isn’t created with political undertones (or overtones) in the first place — I said that others later colonize it for their own separate purposes.

Case in point, the origins of 40k have something to do with a subversive, punk mentality. Those who want to use it to idolize IRL figures of authority (or the military generally) are certainly twisting the original concept to diametrically opposite effect.

No ten characters.

It's really that simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
that's true, but Americans tend to have a very broad view of what "censorship" is. The first amendment applies to governmental action, but we seem to think that private entities, or even individuals, cannot limit our speech.

Marsh v. Alabama, 326 U.S. 501 (1946) disagrees with you there.

Polonius is well aware of the letter of the law, BCB. He is talking about the cultural tone of American culture in re free speech, rather than the legal reality.

I really enjoyed reading this thread, and I think the level to which everyone is so tense in replying is sad. Everyone who has replied basically agrees with how to deal with the problem, they basically only disagree on the extent of the problem or whether GW should bear responsibility.

I think that GW bears a little responsibility because the later writers (from 4e/5e onward) have written the background in a way that justifies the Imperium and makes them into more of a "good guy" faction. I think it is mostly clumsy writing and some less thoughtful designers after the old guard left and is not malicious.

But the Imperium is a pastiche of both fascism (and this should be really obvious, people who don't see it must be being a bit wilful to my mind!) and totalitarian communism as well. It is sort of a pastiche of all the worst stuff from the 20th century overlaid onto the Holy Roman Empire, in space! Which is a cool idea for a setting, to be sure.

I think if we accept that fascists like 40K a lot (and those who haven't encountered it, it does exist) then we can examine why that is. And yeah, we can do something about it.

As for free speech, that is a very parochial american point of view. Most of the world doesn't work like that, you guys are the weird outliers, it's just that you are used to considering yourselves the default more. Pro-Nazi stuff will get you in trouble with the law pretty easily where I am, for sure.